How Do You Figure The Number of Series Cells In This Triangular Configuration

[eMark]

.
It's easy to determine the total number of parallel cells (100) in this triangular "10S /10P" configuration.

BUT what about when it comes to determining the total number of series cells connections POSSIBLE in this following triangular pack design ?

What's the total number of series cells in this pack ?

What's the most POSSIBLE number of series cells connections possible between p-groups in this triangular pack configuration ?

Between which of the ten p-groups is the weakest series cell connection transfer if all transfer paths use same size bus bar ?

Is there a preferred location for the negative and positive connections for charging and discharging ... if so where?

The computer diagram is from spinningmagnets series thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006

 

[eMark]

Have you ever considered the number of series cells in a DIY battery pack OR only the series voltage and number of series strings (if rectangular DIY powerbank battery build). Not sure if they are still referred to as "strings" in a triangulary battery build.

My conclusion from the first thread (now locked) is that none have ever thought about the number of series cells there are in a DIY battery build (rectangular or triangular), and when having fewer series cells in a pack than the number of parallel cells is better.

Dose this Tesla lithium-ion battery have fewer series cells compared to the number of its parallel cells ...

Is it better to have fewer series cells in a triangular e-bike pack than parallel cells OR better to have the same number of both series cells and parallel cells ?

 

[john61ct]

Related threads

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1671784#p1671784

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1671991#p1671991

 

[john61ct]

Is it better to have fewer series cells in a triangular e-bike pack than parallel cells OR better to have the same number of both series cells and parallel cells ?

Why do you think the fact the pack is in a triangle shape changes anything compared to a rectangular shape? ?

It does not.

The term "string" of course means cells or groups in series, with li-ion you multiply the S-count by 3.6V or 3.7V to get the nominal voltage of that string, or the pack as a whole.

> Not sure if they are still referred to as "strings" in a triangulary battery build.

Yes of course, the shape **changes nothing** electrically!

> none have ever thought about the number of series cells there are in a DIY battery build (rectangular or triangular), and when having fewer series cells in a pack than the number of parallel cells is better.

Yes it is likely that no one ever thought about this non-issue in the same way as you, because the question itself emerges from your lack of understanding how building a pack from cells fundamentally works.

 

[999zip999]

Yes I have made batteries both ways. series then parallel and parallel then series.I like to parallel my groups than series to the voltage I need so I can monitor each parallel group as one battery but with more ah the more I parallel into the parallel group before hooking up in the series. if series than parallel you have to use very high quality cells
A series then parallel pack is harder to monitor and they don't make a BMS for it. It's also harder on the cell then if you put a bunch of cells in parallel first.

 

[eMark]

Yes I have made batteries both ways. series then parallel and parallel then series.I like to parallel my groups than series to the voltage I need so I can monitor each parallel group as one battery but with more ah the more I parallel into the parallel group before hooking up in the series. if series than parallel you have to use very high quality cells
A series then parallel pack is harder to monitor and they don't make a BMS for it. It's also harder on the cell then if you put a bunch of cells in parallel first.

It seems from your reply that you don't believe that the same cell(s) can function as both parallel and series at the same time while discharging a pack.

The question and primary reason for this thread was/is ... The number of "series cells" in that triangular pack design?

Is it really that difficult to determine the number of cells in series in this triangular pack design ? NOT the number of series strings or the series voltage fully charged, but the total number of series cells (cells in series) in this "10S / 10P" triangular pack computer design from spinningmagnets thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006 .

 

[spinningmagnets]

I like the start and finish bus bars to be located near the bottom, when the pack is mounted to the frame. This shortens the power cable when you have a "drip loop" exiting the battery box.

The battery will perform the same whether the positive and negative bus bars are at opposite ends of the pack, or even right next to each other.

The series connections between paralleled groups of cells can follow a path that is shaped like a "C" or it can follow a path shaped like a "Z". Electrically, it doesn't matter.

 

[eMark]

I like the start and finish bus bars to be located near the bottom, when the pack is mounted to the frame. This shortens the power cable when you have a "drip loop" exiting the battery box.

The battery will perform the same whether the positive and negative bus bars are at opposite ends of the pack, or even right next to each other.

The series connections between paralleled groups of cells can follow a path that is shaped like a "C" or it can follow a path shaped like a "Z". Electrically, it doesn't matter.

Why is everyone so evasive when it comes to answering the question posed in this thread title ... the number of cells in series connections (series cells) in this triangular pack design?

Maybe, this article will help you guys understand the difference between "series cells" and "parallel cells" ... www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

Is it actually possible that Ron doesn't know the total number of "series cells" in this triangular pack design OR he does but he doesn't want to say for fear he may upset john61ct who still maintains that the terms "series cells" and "parallel cells" are not legitimate terms.

Hope everyone (or at least most) are beginning to see that when it comes to trolling and baiting it is john61ct not me that is disruptive being misinformed or just getting some sick pleasure from stirring the pot.

Ron, i thought from your previous PM several days ago that you had a lot going on right now than accusing me of trolling. Are you actually afraid to take john on knowing that you'll get on his bad side even though he's wrong thinking that "series cells" and "parallel cells" aren't legimate terms. Will continue this as long as necessary if no one wants to close/lock this thread.

 

[999zip999]

That triangular pack is 10s 10p. I would also suggest that you buy a pack and please don't try to build one. did you look with any interest of the book I recommended for you to read so you can learn all about batteries and how to build a battery pack.

Why don't you start answering some questions what do you want this battery pack for what motor what controller what frame.
please buy this book for yourself.
https://www.amazon.com/Micah-Toll/e/B06XSHM464/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

 

[eMark]

That triangular pack is 10s 10p. I would also suggest that you buy a pack and please don't try to build one. did you look with any interest of the book I recommended for you to read so you can learn all about batteries and how to build a battery pack.

Why don't you start answering some questions what do you want this battery pack for what motor what controller what frame.

It's already been mentioned more than once that the pack is "10S / 10P" so your not providing any new informaton.

Why are you seemingly unwilling to at least give us your best guess as to the number of cells in series (series cells) that you figure are in this triangular pack design ...

FWIW, i read that book years ago explainng the difference between series cells and parallel cells. Read this article that explains the difference between series cells and parallel cells ... https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2 ... it will help you to figure the number of series cells in the above 10S / 10P pack design.

So being you've read the book why are you seemingly unwilling to put forth your best guess as to how you figured the number of cells in series (series cells) in the above triangular pack design.

 

[999zip999]

Everyone's having quite a bit of trouble with what your actual question is it seems lost in the fog. The way that batter's design their are points were two cells are in the path two cells in the series path to connect. Just buy some high-quality high discharge low internal resistance because the series pass on the triangle digram are restricted in three to four areas. and use at less than half of rated apps because of the restricted series pathway.
the layout of this battery restricts the true amp usage of the complete battery.
Buy the $17 book you enjoy it.

 

[eMark]

Everyone's having quite a bit of trouble with what your actual question is it seems lost in the fog. ... Buy the $17 book you enjoy it.

Go back an reread the previous post as you missed the part that i read the book years ago and long ago grasped the concept of parallel cells and series cells.

Could it be that "Everyone's" reading comprehension is below par? Are you unable to comprehend the title of this thread ?

How Do You Figure The Number of Series Cells In This Triangular Configuration

or are you possibly feigning ignorance for some reason or unable to comprehend the meaning of the title of this thread ?

Please read this following article as it will help you comprehend the differene between series cells and parallel cells ...

https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

 

[john61ct]

spinningmagnets has forgotten more on this topic than I have ever learned

if he **ever** writes something that contradicts me, just assume he is right and I am wrong.

One more time, after saying "that is a 10P10S pack"

there really is nothing more to say of significance.

Whether the parallel or serial connections are welded "first",

whether the buss bars or power cables are on top or at the bottom

whether the pack is triangular or rectangular

these are minor details.

All the cells are connected in series, AND all of them are connected in parallel, and

none of them can meaningly be called either "series cells" or "parallel cells".

It is not the case that anyone does not know the answer to your question.

The fact is, in this context, your question is nonsensical! It has no rational meaning, so no answer is possible.

> The question itself emerges from your lack of understanding how building a pack from cells fundamentally works.

Like asking "how many angels fit on the head of a pin"?

 

[999zip999]

Picture of the triangle battery you have posted he describes having has three or four weak series connections. Because of your layout and grouping of parallel groups to series connections. The layout is not the best for a high-powered battery but works fine with high quality cells in mid level usage. But if that's the triangle shape or space you have to work in or with then that is the option you have. Unless you draw a better one.

Introducing Voltx.ai: Design your battery pack in minutes on
F
or free maybe these guys can help you out

 

[eMark]

So now you're spokesperson for spinningmagnets ... Yippee Skippee

Bet it tickled you pretty pink when he threw me under the Humvee with his trolling accusation

I didn't read anymore than the first sentence of your post. Unless you forgot i try to IGNORE your

disinformation like saying that "series cells" and "parallel cells" are dislegimate terms. Just more

of your disinformation that you get some sick pleasure from thinking you're right even when wrong

Apparnetly you don't read articles that are contrary to your bias like the following article ...

https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

Why don't you call them up, write to them, meet with them in person, sit them down and teach

them the facts of battery terminology. Have you ever considered becoming a battery cult leader ...

seriously as i think you've got what it takes to rise to the top. .

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm not being difficult on purpose. I do not understand your question in the way that it is phrased.

Every cell in the pack is in series with other cells. In all of the provided examples, we can only see one side of the pack. On the other side, the series/parallel connections are in a completely different pattern.

Many builders don't take the time to show both sides because when you see one side, the other side can be easily determined.

I think you should block John, his posts seem to agitate you.

 

[nicobie]

The rules here state clearly that insulting members is not allowed. After all, they are taking their time to try to help you understand how a battery works. No need to insult them.

 

[john61ct]

Mark, nothing would make me happier right now than for me to see evidence you have come to understand this topic causing you so much trouble.

I take no pleasure in others also trying to help you correct your misunderstanding

No one thinks you really are trolling, they just cannot imagine how you can put so much energy into defending and maintaining that blind spot.

We are on the same side, learning together.

 

[john61ct]

The reason that Chegg site's use of those phrases works is, in that context there are either series connections OR parallel connections ONLY.

They could not use those phrases in an example with both connection types at the same time.

No one here has anything to learn from that page, it is not any special authority, you can stop citing it every post.

 

[eMark]

Every cell in the pack is in series with other cells.

Understand what you are trying to say even if the phrasing may confuse some. Some might come back and say ...

"I thought some of the cells were in parallel with other cells, but you give the impression every cell (all 100 cells of
10S /10P) are in series with other cells. What about cells with parallel connections. How many cells are there in that 10S /10P pack with parallel connections ... 100 ?"

Why is it so difficult to agree that "Series Cells" and "Parallel Cells" are legit terms as in this professionally written article ... https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2 ... where it explains the difference between "Series Cells" and "Parallel Cells".

In all of the provided examples, we can only see one side of the pack. On the other side, the series/parallel connections are in a completely different pattern.

Are you now implying it's near impossible to know the total number of cells "in series with other cells" in that triangular 10S /10P pack unless can see the other side ? You need to further explain yourself why it's impossible to know the total number of paralleled cells or the total number of cells with series connetions in that 10S /10P pack.

I'm not being difficult on purpose. I do not understand your question in the way that it is phrased.

How would you phrase it so as to best figure the total number of cells in series (series cells) with other cells? The implication with your phrasing is 100 cells are "series cells" as explained in the above article as well as the same 100 cells are "parallel cells" as explained in the above article ... i'd buy that :wink: ... can we wrap our minds around that ?

A unique bonding relationship helping to keep all 100 cells (10S /10P) balanced during an ...
eXhilarating Mountain e-Bike raw perforance discharge to the Max

Another example is your two following diagrams. Can we agree that there are 28 "series cells" and 28 "parallel cells" functioning together as a 7S / 4P pack of 28 cells ... or is that too confusing for the human brain ...

PS: Send me a PM on how to block john61ct from posting on my thread(s) from now on ... Please and Thank You

 

[john61ct]

how to block john61ct from posting on my thread

There is no such facility.

But you can block your ability to see my posts, same result.

> unique bonding relationship

what do you think this means? seriously

> helping to keep all 100 cells (10S /10P) balanced

it doesn't


> I thought some of the cells were in parallel with other cells, but you give the impression every cell (all 100 cells of 10S /10P) are in series with other cells. What about cells with parallel connections. How many cells are there in that 10S /10P pack with parallel connections ... 100 ?


Yes, as you answer yourself

> 100 cells are "series cells" as explained in the above article as well as the same 100 cells are "parallel cells"

…

> Another example is your two following diagrams. Can we agree that there are 28 "series cells" and 28 "parallel cells" functioning together as a 7S / 4P pack of 28 cells

Exactly, you're getting it!

 

[spinningmagnets]

When making the series and parallel connections in a new pack (spot-welder, or soldering, etc), there are several options.

All of the connections can be made with strips if nickel ribbon, or...a single layer of metal plate.

The top picture is 2S / 3P = 6-cells

The large triangle battery is 20S / 12P = 240-cells

 

[eMark]

When making the series and parallel connections in a new pack (spot-welder, or soldering, etc), there are several options

Are you purposely trying to derail the intent of this thread (please read the thread title) by switching to spot-welder, or soldering, etc ? Try to stay on topic or start another thread. If you don't know the answer(s) to following just say so instead of going off-topic.

How Do You Figure The Number of Series Cells In This Triangular Configuration or if you don't like that phrasing then How Do You Figure The Number of Cells in Series Connectons In This Triangular Configuration

The question is how do you determine when designing a Triangular Configuration how many cells are in series connections and how many cells are in parallel connections.

Let's use the computer pack design 10S / 10P as an example. What's the most number of cells in series connections (e.g. 100?) and the most number of cells having parallel connections (e.g. 100?). What numbers do you figure are the most possible cells in series connections _________ ? and the most possible number of cells in parallel connections __________ ?

Maybe, john can cover for you again if the figuring is too difficult. Is that why you went off topic or possibly you didn't comprehend the phrasing :wink:

 

[999zip999]

Still go get a good quality battery manufacturer and get one made for you and don't make one yourself. .The potential of problems all that stored energy I know it looks like the cell is benign the cell can cause house garage fire or a car fire. And you think it has no power it has stored energy to put your house on fire one cell. Please take my advice and don't play around. As learning certain things for some people is easy and learning the same thing for someone else is very very hard.
having a high IQ might not help you here on this problem. Just don't create one. And don't leave it in your home if you're going to make a battery have a cement bunker or a barbecue and leave it there and outside your garage your house or your bedroom. Or else where anything is living.

 

[john61ct]

Are you purposely trying to derail the intent of this thread ?
…
Try to stay on topic or start another thread. If you don't know the answer(s) to following just say so instead of going off-topic.
…
Maybe, john can cover for you again if the figuring is too difficult. Is that why you went off topic or possibly you didn't comprehend the phrasing

You really are being obnoxious now to the smartest guy patient enough to deal with your nonsensical questions.

The answers has already been given, many times now. And they vary between a wired up pack, vs a spot-welded one as in Ron‘s excellent examples.

> Let's use the computer pack design 10S / 10P as an example. What's the most number of cells in series connections (e.g. 100?) and the most number of cells having parallel connections (e.g. 100?). What numbers do you figure are the most possible cells in series connections _________ ? and the most possible number of cells in parallel connections __________ ?

Since the total is 100, and all of them are connected both ways, then the only possible answer is 100 for each blank.