How Do You Figure The Number of Series Cells In This Triangular Configuration

[john61ct]

NESE is nice

With that system, it totally changes the issue, and none of the examples you've used or seen here are relevant.

Since you are using that system, and I haven't, answer me this:

Within a single NESE module, is there any choice as to layout? Can you create series connections?

Or are they all parallel within a single NESE module?

If the latter, then each module acts as a single cell.

As an exercise, how about using the size modules you have, and draw out a layout / wiring design for a 14S pack, using 2 modules in parallel to double the Ah capacity.

With help from the forum if needed, should be a good learning exercise, relevant to whatever your plans may be.

 

[eMark]

You really are being obnoxious now to the smartest guy patient enough to deal with your nonsensical questions.

I knew the answer before posting this thread, but it was like pulling teeth to finally get an answer until now. Was not pleased when Ron threw me under the Humvee by falsely accusing me of not knowing the difference between parallel cell connections and series cell connections ... SENIOR LIVES MATTER ... my two thread questions are far from nonsensical ... another example of misrepresentating and disinformation which seems to be your forte.

Since the total is 100, and all of them are connected both ways, then the only possible answer is 100 for each blank.

Hey a first at this ES Battery forum. This is the first time john has agreed with me. That TKO mst have helped

The answers has already been given, many times now.

As our beloved friend RR would say, "There you go again" ... Where in this thread or my other thread have the answers been given many times ...

In all of the provided examples, we can only see one side of the pack. On the other side, the series/parallel connections are in a completely different pattern. Many builders don't take the time to show both sides because when you see one side, the other side can be easily determined.

So being they can be easily determine what is the most number of cells with series connections and the most number of cells with parallel connections in the following three DIY battery packs. BE CAREFUL, you wouldn't want to be too hasty and agree with me again ...

4S /15P (60 cells with series connections and 60 cells with parallel connections, if not what are your numbers)

20S / 6P (120 cells with series connections and 60 cells with parallel connections, if not what are your numbers)

4S / 15P (60 cells with series connections and 60 cells with parallel connections, if not what are your numbers)

 

[john61ct]

The answer will always be ALL OF THEM for both serial and parallel

with spot-welding as in those examples anyway.

With NESE, to be determined from your answers

 

[john61ct]

I will be disengaging a while, best of luck.

 

[eMark]

The answer will always be ALL OF THEM for both serial and parallel

By "100" he is referring to the actual cells functioning as both Series and Parallel Cells, but not the number of actual series and parallel connections.

If john meant series and parallel connections he forget to count both cell sides of that 10S / 10P pack. So when john says the answer is "100" for that 10S / 10P pack design he is actually in agreement with me that there are 100 cells functioning as both Series and Parallel Cells in a uniquely bonded relationship that previously was difficult for him to grasp.

With two spot-welds on each end of all 100 cells there would be a toal of 400 spot-welded series and parallel connection points on all 100 cells. Think of those 100 cells as akin to Siamese Twin Series / Parallel Cells joined by series and parallel connections.

Apparently john got confused between the 100 cells functioning jointy as Series/Parallel Cells and the total number of series and parallel connections possibly being as many as 400 if each cell end had two spot-welds (4 tiny divots).

However, being that he said "100" then he is in agreement that there are 100 cells functioning as both Series Cells and Parallel Cells in that 10S / 10P computer designed pack. john61ct finally gets the unique relationship of those 100 Series/Parallel Cell concept in that 10S /10P pack design as well as the three other designs.

There are 100 cells functioning as both 'Series Cells with series connections and at the same time the same 100 cells functioning as Parallel Cells with parallel connections. To help john further retain this concept we'll use those two diagrams provided by spinningmagnets ...

We can clearly see that there are 7 Serial Cells and 4 Parallel Cells shown below as well as 14 series connetions and 8 parallel connections ...

Here we can clearly count 7 Series Cells with 14 series connections

Here we can clearly count 4 Parallel Cells with 8 parallel connections

Why john61ct keeps insisting there is no such thing as Series Cells AND Parallel Cells is an example of his disinformation that is not helpful and disruptive to the point of derailing this thread. Just another example of his attempt to discredit my posts because i have previously pointed out when he is wrong.

When completed this 7S / 4P pack of 28 cells will effectively function as 28 Series Cells and 28 Parallel Cells jointly in a uniquely spot-welded bonding. According to john there was no such thing as Series Cells and Parallel Cells.

Maybe to help spinningmagnets also understand the concept we need to charnge the phrasing to Series/Parallel Cells as in 28 Series/Parallel Cells being that john has convinced spinningmagnets that there is no such thing as "Series Cells" and "Parallel Cells" in a 7S / 4P battery pack ...

Like ... "How Do You Figure The Number of Siamese Twin Series/Parallel Cells In This Triangular Configuration"

Am trying to help spinningmagnets understand the concept which isn't easy to wrap one's mind around that those cells function as conduits for both series and parallel connections at the same time. Those 28 cells in that 7S / 4P pack are functioning in a unique joint partnership as both Series Cells and Parallel Cells.

It doesn't help others grasp the unique concept when john61ct provides disinformation that there is no such thing as Series Cells and Parallel Cells. Apparently he doesn't want to grasp the concept that the 28 cells in that 7S / 4P pack are functioning as both Series Cells as well as Parallel Cells.

 

[nicobie]

I can assure you that both John61ct and Spinningmagnets both understand the inner workings of a battery system. Please stop saying otherwise. You have been warned about this at least once already.

 

[Monte]

Maybe, this article will help you guys understand the difference between "series cells" and "parallel cells" ... www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

Using this definition of "series cells" which you are apparently using in all of these threads, the answer to your question of "how many series cells in x pack?" is always 1.

From your Chegg link:

"Series cells are produced by individual cells connected together."

It seems that in the definition given on Chegg, when cells are connected in series, they form a "series cell(s)".


If the cells connected in parallel are confusing you, note that they are electrically combined into a single cell upon being connected in parallel, essentially forming one single cell with higher capacity.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Between which of the ten p-groups is the weakest series cell connection transfer if all transfer paths use same size bus bar ?

For ease of manufacture, builders often use the same material for all the bus connections, such as between the 10P cell groups you showed in the computer graphic.

Due to the odd shapes, some connections would be two cells wide (if using a single-layer sheet for both series and parallel connections).

Some of the connecting plates between the P-groups would be four cells wide. In this instance, you "could" select bus material that is twice as thick in the narrow 2-cell connection, so that the current-carrying capacity is the same between the two.

However, since methods have been discovered which allow the spot-welding of copper sheet directly to the cell-ends (*instead of nickel), even the narrow buses can carry more current than needed.

As far as the pattern of the busses to direct the flow of current thtough the pack, there is not much of a benefit of one pattern over another.

You can connect the P-groups so that the current flows in a loop, and has the end-collectors near each other (positive and negative).

Or, you can choose a "Z" pattern with the collectors at opposite ends of the pack.

What is "best" often depends on what the pack is being designed for.

 

[999zip999]

Sometimes if you read the book a second time you'll get a different meeting understanding of battery pack building.

 

[eMark]

Using this definition of "series cells" which you are apparently using in all of these threads, the answer to your question of "how many series cells in x pack?" is always 1.

series cells is plural ... that means at least two cells not 1.

"Series cells are produced by individual cells connected together."

That's also true for individual cells (plural) connected together as a parallel p-group.

It seems that in the definition given on Chegg, when cells are connected in series, they form a "series cell(s)".

You should phrase it as: when cells are connected in series, they form a "series of cells" with each cell in the string funtioning as a "series cell".

If the cells connected in parallel are confusing you, note that they are electrically combined into a single cell upon being connected in parallel, essentially forming one single cell with higher capacity.

That's not really true because within a p-group you could have once of the parallel cells with unacceptable self-discharge, but wouldn't be able to detect which cell unless disassembing the pack to test the individual cells. Or one of the cells could have the beginnings of an internal short that if not removed could disable a p-group. So your concept is flawed in that the cells in a p-group do not become one single cell.

Possibly it's you that's a little confused with your phrasing

 

[eMark]

You can connect the P-groups so that the current flows in a loop, and has the end-collectors near each other (positive and negative).

Or, you can choose a "Z" pattern with the collectors at opposite ends of the pack.

What is "best" often depends on what the pack is being designed for

You should start a thread (REALLY) as lead teacher.

Like where the final positive and negative end-collectors should be located is certainly a topic deserving further discussion. Even why end-collectors" is proper terminology than say beginning and ending contacts for charging and discharging. It would be helpful if you list and define terminology at the beginning of your course/class :thumb:

My thinking has always been that it's better to have them at "so-called" opposite ends in a tringular pack; especially with a pack used more for its "raw performance" capability. Perhaps we need to say opposite ends of the series connectons or some wise guy will say, "do you mean opposite ends of the p-groups" which just throws a monkey wrench into what was going along pretty good up until then. Think you would need to lay down some rules as well as defining terminology.

Also something to consider is designing a triangular pack for the most number of series connectons possible between the 10 p-groups on that 10S /10P computer designed triangular pack. Would be worth discussing that as many the series connections as possible are as important as a well thoughtout triangular pack design.

 

[mxlemming]

Thus is the single dumbest thread I've ever seen on endless sphere. I still can't work out wtf emark is getting at. It appears he might have finally discovered how to count and can't believe other people have this ability.

This reminds me of confusing my 2 year old by rotating the shape sorter basket toy.

Edit:
Do u mean like counting the number of bits of wire you use to connect the p groups?
You can put as many as you want in. With 2s1p you could have 50 wires connecting them if you so choose.

 

[john61ct]

A fine illustration of Dunning–Kruger syndrome, combined with anosognosia, narcissistic infallibility and a peremptory refusal to admit past (or continuing) ignorance.

 

[mxlemming]

A fine illustration of Dunning–Kruger syndrome, combined with anosognosia, narcissistic infallibility and a peremptory refusal to admit past (or continuing) ignorance.

Well at least I've learnt some new words today. Had to Google anosognosia and peremptory.

 

[mxlemming]

Here's another question... Useless but at least possibly answerable...

If you label the 20s5p or whatever cells 1-100, how many ways could you possibly arrange them into the triangle bag?

Is the answer 100x99x98x...2x1?

What if all members of a p group have to be next to other members of the same p group (to enable sitting without jumping over other p-groups? Is that computable?

 

[john61ct]

check this out

https://voltx.ai

 

[eMark]

A fine illustration of Dunning–Kruger syndrome, combined with anosognosia, narcissistic infallibility and a peremptory refusal to admit past (or continuing) ignorance.

If you don't understand the concept it isn't helpful to post an insulting toxic reply just because you don't get the concept or don't want to get it.

 

[eMark]

If you label the 20s5p or whatever cells 1-100, how many ways could you possibly arrange them into the triangle bag?

Ideally you would want to arrange them so there are as many series cell connections as there are parallel cell connections. We can agree that 100 parallel cell connections are possible in your example a 20s5p triangular configuration.

It may not always be possible to have as many series cell connections as parallel cell connections (e.g. 20s5p) in a triangular configuration, but it's always possible in a retangular pack configuration (e.g. 7s4p) to have as many series cell connections as there are parallel cell connections ...

What's the most number of series cell connections possible in this 20S / 6P triangular pack ...

 

[john61ct]

There is no advantage to having **any** particular relationship between the S connection count and the P one.

These numbers are simply not a factor to consider in and of themselves for **any** design decisions

You are fixated on a useless question.

As I have already stated, the ideal is that cells are available in the Ah capacity that you desire for your pack, within your physical space requirement, so ZERO paralleling is required, just a single string of single cells.

As for the series count, that is simply determined by the voltage range you want.

If paralleling **is** required, that count is determined by the total Ah desired for the pack, divided by the capacity of the cells.

That really is all there is to it!

 

[eMark]

This is just another example of his attempt to disrupt with disinformation and even preceeded with insult ...

john61ct wrote: ↑Aug 26 2021 8:11am
A fine illustration of Dunning–Kruger syndrome, combined with anosognosia, narcissistic infallibility and a peremptory refusal to admit past (or continuing) ignorance.

You've reently received a "WARNING" ... check your PM.

Just the day before he agreed with me about the number of cells in parallel being the same as the number of cells in series in that 10S / 10P computer design. Here's his post ...

> Let's use the computer pack design 10S / 10P as an example. What's the most number of cells in series connections (e.g. 100?) and the most number of cells having parallel connections (e.g. 100?). What numbers do you figure are the most possible cells in series connections _________ ? and the most possible number of cells in parallel connections __________ ?

Since the total is 100, and all of them are connected both ways, then the only possible answer is 100 for each blank.

john61ct wrote: ↑Aug 23 2021 9:21pm
The answer will always be ALL OF THEM for both serial and parallel

Is that also true with that 20S / 6P triangular pack? Just as there are 120 parallel connections so too there are 120 parallel connections ? YES _____ NO _____

Is this always possible with a well fabricated triangular pack to have as many series connectons as parallel connectons ?

What about one member that said he likes to have at least two series connections joining each p-group of five cells within a triangular pack. Another member believes it's better to have at least three series connecions between each p-group of five cells within a triangular pack design.

QUESTION: Is one goal in triangular pack fabrication to have as many series connections as parallel connections ?

What about this 20S / 6P ? Are there as many series cell connections as there are parallel cell connections ? YES ____ NO ____

 

[john61ct]

The only warning I received was from some immature fool pretending to be a mod.

Please stop with this time wasting foolishness Mark.

Did you even take the time to absorb my most recent posts? Just swallow your hubris and try to learn, this really is the most basic 101-level concept.

 

[neptronix]

John61ct,
I have word that fechter, a real mod, told you to stop quarreling with eMark a year ago. Consider this your last warning.

If you do not like what eMark has to say and think he's going about things the wrong way, etc. Correct him in a respectful way, or simply don't read his threads.

 

[markz]

Interesting drama going on in this thread, can't believe I missed out on it as it was going on.

A) One way is to have multiple 10S1P connected only at their negative and positive to make up any P you want, say 10S5P for say 36V 10Ah if using 2Ah cells.

B) Another way is to connect each subsequent "S" all together all in parallel.
- When I did it this way, it was easier for the battery to lose more cells then necessary. When one cell would go bad, it would bring down more cells then if I were to build it as first mentioned.

But I was working with Makita 5S2P when I tried it that way (B) I would solder in 10awg wire straight across every Series having a 10S4P pack. That is a lot of work, more work then doing it (A).

For (A) I would connect 2 Makita's in series to make a 36V pack then at the positive of one Makita and negative of the other Makita, solder in a connector to make a pack, meanwhile the middle of the two were just connected in series (neg to pos) using 10awg solid copper wire from Home Depot. Like I said, a lot less work. Remember the Makita's are already tab welded, pcb taken out, 5S2P removed from cases and put in a config I wanted. The ones I bought were 5S2P, Makita 4Ah.

How would one word it?
(A) Series first then Parallel
(B) Everything Parallel

But I was dealing with uniform shape, rectangle/square. Can't do (A) with an odd shape, might be able to get away with it in a triangle if your so lucky.

When doing it in (A) there are less cells near the bad cell

Lemme see what I can bring up in a search, I believe it was spinningmagnets I remember reading.
Couldnt find the post I remember reading years ago, but found this
SM and Johnct
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103594&p=1515853&hilit=series#p1515853

 

[john61ct]

amazing, blast from the past

https://youtu.be/wAVl_IJV5eI

 

[ZeroEm]

by markz » Aug 30 2021 12:12pm

Interesting drama going on in this thread, can't believe I missed out on it as it was going on.

I just started reading LateCurtis.