how to test cutout on WE controller

[Skink]

Thanks for the link to the meter...

I found the problem with the 2.4 mile pack... I ran it out again then pull the harness and checked the individual voltages and found a dead cell in one battery... Upon further inspection the epoxy that holds the ground terminal is cracked due to shipping damage... I had 6 shipped at once and Batterygeek1 on ebay had no experience packing 6 into a box... I noted the bent terminals on a couple batteries when I got them but at that time all batteries read over 12V ...

I replaced the battery with a old one I had and got more millage w/out a charge so that solve one part... I still need to find out why I am only getting 7 miles from the fresh batteries... Dennis Bernson agreed to take back the controller out of guarantee when it warms up...

I bought a old WE kit from a member here 6 months ago but I could not use the controller for troubleshooting because it has the old hall sensor wires... I now will install the old kit to test the batteries...

Thanks everyone for all the advice and replies!!!

 

[Ykick]

'sorry to get off-track a bit in your thread but at the time it seemed meter related...

7 miles from 12AH SLA sounds about right to me. In the real world 'never saw more than 1/2 rated capacity from SLA. Majority of eBikes average around 1AH per mile, 7 miles seems very plausible. If I'm understanding your setup correctly?

Definitely get a power meter of some sort and a way to connect it - can't qualify much of anything without one...

 

[Skink]

'sorry to get off-track a bit in your thread but at the time it seemed meter related...

7 miles from 12AH SLA sounds about right to me. In the real world 'never saw more than 1/2 rated capacity from SLA. Majority of eBikes average around 1AH per mile, 7 miles seems very plausible. If I'm understanding your setup correctly?

Definitely get a power meter of some sort and a way to connect it - can't qualify much of anything without one...

I would agree if I had not gotten 14 miles on a fresh set of batteries... I ordered the watt meter looks like a wise investment if you have an e-bike...

 

[dogman dan]

The watt meter will show you your problem. Your new batteries are junk.

 

[Skink]

...
with a watts up meter will I be able to test an individual battery in a pack of 3???
....

Yes you can.

BTW, a Turnigy Watt Meter is a Watt's Up clone and costs a lot less. You can buy it new a HobbyKing.com

Anyone have experience with Hobbyking.com??? I ordered via paypal so I did not register with that place as I will probably never need anything from them again... Consequently I can't track the order and I can't get them to respond to email... Hobbyking is in China but claim to have a warehouse here...

As expected Batterygeek1 at Ebay stopped responding as soon as I could not leave feedback,,, 60 day limit is the new time frame so he is hiding behind it,,, Buyer Beware his batteries are probably warehouse lot buyouts or the like!!! http://myworld.ebay.com/batterygeek1/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

 

[Ykick]

Anyone have experience with Hobbyking.com???

LOL... quite a few of us regularly order from them but I question NOT subscribing to their order system? 'Seems like you're asking for communication problems if you don't register. You'll surely get your items but orders can take a while - US warehouse is hit or miss in regard to stock IMO.

I've had Hobby King (HK) items delivered in days while other things took many weeks. Good stuf and prices but it's a different world over there, ya know?

 

[Skink]

Anyone have experience with Hobbyking.com???

LOL... quite a few of us regularly order from them but I question NOT subscribing to their order system? 'Seems like you're asking for communication problems if you don't register. You'll surely get your items but orders can take a while - US warehouse is hit or miss in regard to stock IMO.

I've had Hobby King (HK) items delivered in days while other things took many weeks. Good stuf and prices but it's a different world over there, ya know?

They are from China and I get enough spam from China without leaving my name and email...

 

[Skink]

Ok I got a email back from Hobbyking on the same day I got the meter...

Now I need to know what I am looking for??? I connected the watt meter to the first battery in series on the pack and noted like 345wh and 0.945ah... this was on the pack I am getting close to 7 miles on full charge according to the charger... voltage dropped to 12.88v on the short test run and started at 13.88v

What numbers am I looking for??? the batteries are 12ah sla's on a Wilderness energy brushless no hall sensor... I want to troubleshoot battery health as well as controller health...

Thanks

Batterygeek1 responded to email with a link to this thread in it,,, so things are looking up!!!

Big thanks!!!

 

[Ykick]

345wh and 0.945ah...

Something doesn't make sense with those numbers unless you're operating around 365V? 'sure that ain't Wp? Wh usually follows Ah on my Turnigy meter...

What's your peak Amp draw? That'll tell you how much power the controller is looking for as long as voltage sag isn't too extreme.

If you can get about 7Ah from 12Ah SLA powering an eBike that's about as good as it get's IMO.

 

[Skink]

345wh and 0.945ah...

Something doesn't make sense with those numbers unless you're operating around 365V? 'sure that ain't Wp? Wh usually follows Ah on my Turnigy meter...

What's your peak Amp draw? That'll tell you how much power the controller is looking for as long as voltage sag isn't too extreme.

If you can get about 7Ah from 12Ah SLA powering an eBike that's about as good as it get's IMO.

Please Don't quote me there I had little time and no pencils or books at the time,,, weather is suppose to break and I can do better this week...
Oh and I am reading the instructions too ,,,LOL...


Thanks

 

[Ykick]

Instructions can be a useful thing and it takes a few attempts to figure out best routine for checking the meter after a run and noting/recording the data. I can assure you, once you get accustomed to it you'll find the data very informative for determining the health of your battery system along with the needs of your motor/controller.

It's been a while since I ran SLA but I seem to remember (for one battery) 11V is about the point the battery becomes practically unusable. I used to run 4qty in series for 48V nominal and pretty much gassed/empty at 43-44V.

Run tests with your new meter and you'll be able to see what's happening with regard to your battery situation. 12Ah SLA batteries should be able to provide at least 7Ah when used for eBike application.

 

[Skink]

I really don't know what I am looking for here but here is some numbers... I need a little guidance on how to trouble shoot the controller and battery health...

6 mile pack
Pack 1 batt1 free spinning wheel 14.0-watts 1.03-amps 13.65-volts / rode 1 block V-13.05 AP-28.03 WH-4.6 WP-331.3 VM-11.77
Pack 1 batt2 free spinning wheel 13.2-watts 1.02-amps 12.95-volts / rode 1 block V-13.00 AP-31.36 WH-4.7 WP-363.7 VM-11.59
Pack 1 batt3 free spinning wheel 11.2-watts .88-amps 12.95-volts / rode 1 block V-12.85 AP-31.35 WH-4.7 wp-361.7 VM-11.52

2 mile pack
pack 2 batt1 free spinning wheel 13.0-watts .95-amps 13.40-volts / rode 1 block V-13.09 AP-31.57 WH-4.8 WP-371.8 VM-11.69
pack 2 batt2 free spinning wheel 12.4-watts .91-amps 13.06-volts / rode 1 block V-12.97 AP-31.64 WH-4.9 WP-369.4 VM-11.65
pack 2 batt3 free spinning wheel 11.3-watts .87-amps 13.04-volts / rode 1 block V-12.92 AP-30.62 WH-4.7 WP-356.1 VM-11.58

6 mile pack
pack 1 free spinning wheel 34.4-watts .95-amps 42.22-volts / rode 1 mile V-38.77 AP-31.65 WH-10.1 WP-1109.6 VM-34.99

 

[Ykick]

'don't see much point in free spinning measurements. But your full pack numbers under load indicates you have about 30A controller. You're askng 2.5-3C from those 12Ah batts. Probably a little hard on longevity and capacity but nothing I haven't seen/done before.

If the batts are in reasonably good shape I stand by my estimate that you should be able to pull 7Ah or 250Wh (36V) from those 12Ah rated batts. If they come up short - look for the one with the lowest voltage in the string once it starts to die and that should help identify your low capacity battery.

 

[Skink]

'don't see much point in free spinning measurements. But your full pack numbers under load indicates you have about 30A controller. You're askng 2.5-3C from those 12Ah batts. Probably a little hard on longevity and capacity but nothing I haven't seen/done before.

If the batts are in reasonably good shape I stand by my estimate that you should be able to pull 7Ah or 250Wh (36V) from those 12Ah rated batts. If they come up short - look for the one with the lowest voltage in the string once it starts to die and that should help identify your low capacity battery.

I am not understanding the 7ah part... the instructions state that AH is the charge measured on the load side... are you saying that after depletion "rode several miles" the AH on the meter should be about 7ah ??? lesser degrees indicates poorer state???

 

[Ykick]

What I'm saying is that if you can pull/drain 7Ah (on the load side) from those batteries they're in pretty good shape. If you get less than that (2,3, 4Ah) they don't have very good capacity.

Another thing I do is reverse the connection of my meter and count the Ah going back in during charge. Doing that pretty much verifies your battery health.

 

[Skink]

Sorry about the delay I got out of the hospital 2 weeks ago with a new triple bypass...

I plan to pursue restitution with this ebay battery dealer "http://shop.ebay.com/batterygeek1/m.html" !!!

I really could not get the AH reading concept because they were all so low and I did not relate the AH with the battery health,I thought the AH was for charge going in from the trickle charger and had no function with the output...

After reading your last post I now am clear... there are none of the 6 batteries I bought from BatteryGeek1 that reads above 3.00AH... The highest reading I have from a battery is 2.675... You get what you pay for!!!

Thanks for all the help!!!

 

[Skink]

I finally was able to afford new batteries from ebay again but this time I found a reputable seller who offered the manufacture date when asked... The first run on the new batteries yeilded 17.5 miles and the controller still had not cut out.

If any one would like the reputable dealer just ask I will post it the cost was 77.00 shipped for 3 12v 12ah SLA's...

 

[SamTexas]

The first run on the new batteries yeilded 17.5 miles and the controller still had not cut out.

Are those the 3 12v 12Ah batteries you just purchased? What speed are you running at? Are you pedaling at all?

Assuming you're riding at 17mph average, no pedaling at all: 17.5 miles is a very long range for those batteries. Most likely you have depleted more than 50% of your battery (probably a lot more) which is detrimental to the batteries (all lead-acid batteries). You don't want to rely on the controller cut-out feature to protect the lead-acid batteries. If you do, the batteries will die prematurely, probably in less than 50 cycles.

3x 12v 12Ah = 432Wh. But this is lead acid battery, so the real useable energy on ebike is at most 2/5 of it, or 173Wh.
A typical ebike running at 17mph (no pedaling) consumes about 16Wh/mile. So your range should only be 11 miles. And if you ride faster than that, the range will be even less. Bottom line: Don't rely on the controller "cut-out" for lead-acid batteries' longevity.

 

[theRealFury]

Well this would depend on what the LVC of the controller is... if its designed for lead batteries then it should be ok... IIRC the minimum voltage you should be running the Lead acid batteries down to in order to extract the most range per cycle without damaging the battery life (any further than any 1C+load will do) is to have a LVC at 10.6v per 12v battery. So for a 36v setup LVC should be 31.8v.

So to summarise, if your total battery pack voltage drops below 31.8v the you are decreasing the life cycle of the Lead, if your voltage drops down in the the high 20's then your are killing the lead. So best bet is to hook the Watt meter up between the batteries and the controller and go for a ride, once you hit 10 miles range check your voltage, if its still over 31.8 then go another mile and check again... keep doing this until your voltage shows 31.8 or there abouts, once you see this then you know roughly how far your bike can do without damaging the lead batteries.

I would note however that i have no experience with Lead acid batteries on E-bikes but from my experience with them in solar installations, LVC on practically all solar charge controllers designed for lead is 10.6v. Hope this helps you to find the sweet spot to get the most out of your lead