Hub motor industry dying?

[ScooterMan101]

Who are the others besides Boxxbike ?

Most of us that are on Endless-Sphere are the DIY people, many of us because we just do not have the money / income to afford the big name bike Mfg's Mid-Drives .
So we use Hub Motors for their ability to be used on many different standard bike frames.

I like what Lightning Rod is doing with the LHD , left hand drive / Cyclone mounted on the swingarm .
The more I researched mid drives the more I see that bicycle drive train components with higher power mid-drives are just not a good combination, and there is just no sense in paying allot of money for a low power mid drive , that is one of the reasons rear hubs will be with us for many more years to come.


He ( Mike at L.R. ) seems to be a one man operation , not building enough drive systems to really increase the usage of mid-drives with the DIY crowd .
We do not have enough choices for Bike Frames that have swing arms long enough to fit a Big Block in front of the tire.

We really need a U.S. business that makes E-Bike specific Frames ! ( Low , Long , and Slack )

Then we will have more mid drives being used.

Until such time that we get U.S. Made E-Bike frames with long swing arms , that are like motorcycle swing arms , Hub Motors will be the better way for most people .

Anyone here think they can make a light weight e-bike specific frame with a long swing arm that will accept up to 29 + wheel/tires and enough room for a big block motor in front of the wheel ?
When you build it we will buy it !

I plan on having one Hub Drive bike for most Road Riding , and one Mid-Drive bike for the steep hills.

There are now 3 different manufacturers doing a LHD setup on their factory bikes, plus Lightning Rods doing a DIY setup.
At least one is freewheeling the rear. Boxxbike and Lightning Rods are replacing the rear brake with regen. The last bike has a rear rotor but may also regen, it's new so details are scarce.

 

[MadRhino]

Numbers is what drives the market. Your short sight sees only your small part of the world.

Then, saying hubs are for broke idiots is calling idiots almost all of the ebike owners in the world. And, this is including those on this forum who are building some of the fastest ebikes, riding more mileage in a year than most mid drives owners will in the whole life of their lame toys.

Who believes that complicated things with lots of moving parts are more reliable than one single moving part on 2 bearings ?

Mid drives, big enough to be (almost) reliable, are motorcycle territory. Bicycle mid drives are toys for sunday riders, or hobby for those spending more time tempering than riding.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

SEM Adventure AGAZZINI BIKE :
[youtube]IHPrvhQCMxY[/youtube]
https://youtu.be/IHPrvhQCMxY

https://electrek.co/2019/08/02/agazzini-sem-adventure-electric-bike-motorcycle/

Who are the others besides Boxxbike ?

Most of us that are on Endless-Sphere are the DIY people, many of us because we just do not have the money / income to afford the big name bike Mfg's Mid-Drives .
So we use Hub Motors for their ability to be used on many different standard bike frames.

I like what Lightning Rod is doing with the LHD , left hand drive / Cyclone mounted on the swingarm .
The more I researched mid drives the more I see that bicycle drive train components with higher power mid-drives are just not a good combination, and there is just no sense in paying allot of money for a low power mid drive , that is one of the reasons rear hubs will be with us for many more years to come.


He ( Mike at L.R. ) seems to be a one man operation , not building enough drive systems to really increase the usage of mid-drives with the DIY crowd .
We do not have enough choices for Bike Frames that have swing arms long enough to fit a Big Block in front of the tire.

We really need a U.S. business that makes E-Bike specific Frames ! ( Low , Long , and Slack )

Then we will have more mid drives being used.

Until such time that we get U.S. Made E-Bike frames with long swing arms , that are like motorcycle swing arms , Hub Motors will be the better way for most people .

Anyone here think they can make a light weight e-bike specific frame with a long swing arm that will accept up to 29 + wheel/tires and enough room for a big block motor in front of the wheel ?
When you build it we will buy it !

I plan on having one Hub Drive bike for most Road Riding , and one Mid-Drive bike for the steep hills.

There are now 3 different manufacturers doing a LHD setup on their factory bikes, plus Lightning Rods doing a DIY setup.
At least one is freewheeling the rear. Boxxbike and Lightning Rods are replacing the rear brake with regen. The last bike has a rear rotor but may also regen, it's new so details are scarce.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Who's Short sight ? , you posted just after my post so name the member who does have such short sight.

( Remember that I wrote that I will have two bikes , one hub and one mid-drive )

I will add , so that you and others understand better , that the only reason I will be riding a mid-drive is because I live in a very hilly area, Mountains Really, and I have lugged hub motors that were pulling nearly 2k watts to the point that they just would , Not , go up the hill any more .

Numbers is what drives the market. Your short sight sees only your small part of the world.

Then, saying hubs are for broke idiots is calling idiots almost all of the ebike owners in the world. And, this is including those on this forum who are building some of the fastest ebikes, riding more mileage in a year than most mid drives owners will in the whole life of their lame toys.

Who believes that complicated things with lots of moving parts are more reliable than one single moving part on 2 bearings ?

Mid drives, big enough to be (almost) reliable, are motorcycle territory. Bicycle mid drives are toys for sunday riders, or hobby for those spending more time tempering than riding.

 

[donn]

Who's Short sight ? , you posted just after my post

The reference to "broke idiots" clarified that to me, if it had been necessary. Wasn't you who said that.

 

[ScooterMan101]

efMX,

That Agazzini mid drive is nice , good to see progress like that .
I did not see the price of it on their website , but I can tell it is way over my budget .

The Cyclone/Lighting Rod , Big Block will have to do for many of us.

 

[Grantmac]

Don't forget the LMX which was developed right here on ES.

The LR BB doesn't need to mount on the swingarm and actually doing that is counter productive. He's got a bottom bracket mount as well.

Even a regular mid-drive will run circles around any hub anywhere that's properly offroad. That's why all the EMTB manufacturers are using mids.

 

[MadRhino]

Who's Short sight ? , you posted just after my post so name the member who does have such short sight

Sorry ScooterMan. Donn was right.

Hub drives are for broke idiots that can't figure out how to mount a mid drive. It's a crap design born out of necessity. If Tesla starts making hub motors I might reconsider.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I missed that thread , do you have the link to the LMX ?

Don't forget the LMX which was developed right here on ES.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Ok, MadRhino Good and Thanks, as I do agree with most of everything you are doing with your bikes .

Who's Short sight ? , you posted just after my post so name the member who does have such short sight

Sorry ScooterMan. Donn was right.

Hub drives are for broke idiots that can't figure out how to mount a mid drive. It's a crap design born out of necessity. If Tesla starts making hub motors I might reconsider.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

I missed that thread , do you have the link to the LMX ?

Don't forget the LMX which was developed right here on ES.

E-S LMX 64 Bike Owners :
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=100198

 

[niwrad]

One reason why I see the western companies are making mid-drives is the stealth factor. It's easier to hide the motor between the pedals than in the wheels since there's the crankset and your legs and being built in the bike.

Another reason is, again since they're often low powered, make more efficient use of the parts on the bike, by allowing for a smaller motor since it can easily run at a near constant speed by using the already present gears on a bike. This usually means a lighter bike, and since the motor is also in the custom built bottom bracket where a lot of bike strength usually is, less weight is needed on forks.

Plus having the weight part of the 'sprung' part of the bike is always better, if all else is equal

the best Bosch mid drive motor weighs 7.1 lbs and does 75 nm of torque, which are pretty good stats.

If they weren't so underpowered due to regulatory considerations from Europe, I might have go with a turnkey middrive ebike instead of diy like I did for my bike

 

[MadRhino]

The reason is financial. No money to make in a market you can’t compete. So they created their own market, with unlimited after sale profits fixing their crap. Now, even their dealer service can’t fix them, and all recommend replacing a BB drive you obviously abused.

 

[2old]

A couple of companies that couldn't compete failed; this means nothing about the industry just about them. Anyone who has experience with hub motors, like some of the proponents here, know they will have a long history. There are some places where mid-drives excel and as many where hubs are better.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

aden-sports is still killing it..

Aden Sports Changing the Industry :
[youtube]yMUzl2XDVlI[/youtube]
https://youtu.be/yMUzl2XDVlI

aden-sports.com

 

[MadRhino]

Hi tech currie?
Interesting for a light build
Better reliability potential than mid drives

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

Hi tech currie?
Interesting for a light build
Better reliability potential than mid drives

Aden also did a dual motor version a while back with a moto seat attachment that was insane power to weight.. was posted here on the sphere, not sure if the links are still working though.. maybe worth a search for the curious or to follow the company product development..

 

[dogman dan]

The aden looks interesting, but unlike mid drives cannot be shifted.

The mid drive industry is clearly aimed at converting people who pedal. This is why the big bike industry guys went that way. They are after the big dollar bike rider segment of the market. They are accustomed to big prices on the bikes already.

But the real volume market is people who are less interested in pedaling at all, which is why most of the hub motors are designed for scooters. The china market I mean. The bike conversion kit market in the US aims also, for those who want transportation on the cheap, possibly while they do their DUI stuff. The cheap ass hub motor kit is not going anywhere, so long as less wealthy people get tired of the bus.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

Aden is LHD for the motor power but maintains the bikes stock pedal transmission so it can be pedaled and shifted as a normal pedal bike as needed or desired.. the motor side doesn't shift bc its overpowered for a bicycle drivetrain.. since aden is a kit not a complete bike, the price of entry can be much less than some others depending on your choice of bike..

 

[John in CR]

I have three cars...

We have to help you cure that illness.

 

[John in CR]

This is mostly been about over-price toys vs economical basic transportation. I do however take exception with with the preponderance of geared hubbies that have come to dominate the ebike market, because they can never be nearly as durable as a direct drive motor. If a western company wants to be important in the hubmotor industry, then they need to come up with a better (lighter and more efficient) DD hubmotor at a reasonable price.

 

[donn]

But the real volume market is people who are less interested in pedaling at all, which is why most of the hub motors are designed for scooters. The china market I mean. The bike conversion kit market in the US aims also, for those who want transportation on the cheap, possibly while they do their DUI stuff. The cheap ass hub motor kit is not going anywhere, so long as less wealthy people get tired of the bus.

I'll go along with that, minus the "want to pedal" part. My city has 1000s of electric bikes, most of them low powered clunkers from a couple of rental outfits, and it's pretty rare for me to see anyone not pedaling. The clunkers are PAS only, with geared hubs, but the higher power examples typically have both PAS and throttle, with a mix of geared and direct drive hub motors. A hub motor doesn't get in the way of PAS, and a throttle doesn't get in the way of pedaling, so as long as hub motors are a good way to power a bicycle, they'll be getting their share of the pedaling crowd.

Wondering if I see so much factory hub motor just because there are so many Radpowers, I checked the excellent local retail place, and there's more hub motors, including a $6.5K 250W Bianchi and Stromers from $5K to $10K. So it seems like high end European factory bicycles haven't all gone to crank drives either.

If a western company wants to be important in the hubmotor industry, then they need to come up with a better (lighter and more efficient) DD hubmotor at a reasonable price.

What if we not only kept the gears, we added more, but pulled them out of the motor body as a separate transmission component? Arguably the reason for DD weight and inefficiency and geared hub fragility is that they have to operate at suboptimal speeds, and hence the attraction of crank drives. A lightweight variable speed transmission on that Aden system, and you'd really have something, though of course it wouldn't be a hub motor.

 

[Triketech]

Technology moves at a fast pace.

Hubmotors are where DVD'S were for video about 6 or 7 years ago. 6 or 7 years from now there will still be Hubmotors on the market but they won't be the majority.

 

[donn]

I don't buy that. Bicycle motors and digital media aren't likely to follow the same curve. How about bicycle motors vs. adjustable wrenches, or boat motors, or aerial drones? If a truly better alternative emerges, that will change the picture a lot, but that superiority can't rest on such slender grounds as will be the case with digital media.

 

[2old]

IMO, mid-drives became popular because Bosch, a well-respected name, developed one and created an industry. There were many companies that wanted "a piece of the pie" and developed me-too products. Anyone who has ridden a Stromer (I've tested at least three) or BionX-equipped bike (even though they're out of business) knows that hub motors have a bright, future.