I want to build this

I hope you don't mind, but I moved all your threads about this project into your original one to keep all the project info and discussion in one place, so you don't have some people helping you in one and some in others, each asking questions already answered in other threads they don't know about, and to help you find all the answers to make building it easier.


What you will need depends on exactly what you want it to do under what specific conditions. Some of that's already been discussed above (conditions, weight, speed), but not everything was answered yet (range, acceleration, etc). If you take the specifics of the job you need it to do and put them into the ebikes.ca motor and/or trip simulators, you can play with different systems to see if they will do the job, and what kind of power levels you will need to do the job under your conditions.

As a guesstimate from my own SB Cruiser usage, I'd say that 2kW+ is likely to be useful, 800-1200W is probably minimum required, 4kW+ will be much better performance on acceleration / headwinds.

If you don't need quick acceleration, and don't mind taking up to a quarter mile or half mile or more to reach 20mph, a 1000W hubmotor will probably, on completely flat terrain with no winds, maintain 20mph with something built the way your picture shows, maxing out the motor power all the time. If there's more drag than my SB Cruiser trike has, either from air resistance on the canopy/body or rolling resistance on the tires, it'll take more power than that.

If you use a middrive system (diff or no diff) motor chained or belted to a wheel or wheels, the same power will still be needed to maintain the same speed, but you can gear it for higher torque, and use a physically smaller motor (as long as the motor can still handle the power), as long as the motor can still spin fast enough . If a gear-shiftable diff or transmission is used (even a two- or three-speed bicycle drivetrain of some type), you can set it up for a low gear for acceleration and a high gear for cruising speed.

A hubmotor will be less maintenance as long as it is in a well-built wheel (the cheap kits probably won't be because they use too thick spokes for the rims they use), but you can get ones that will be from places like ebikes.ca just costs more, or you can build it yourself or have one built at a local bike shop using just a bare hubmotor and the rim you need to support the weight of your system that can survive the road conditions you'll have.

Whatever you use, you'll also need a battery that can continously output the power needed, probably at least 1000w or more, for the entire distance/time you need to ride it.

At a guess it will take 60-100Wh/mile at 20MPH to operate something built like yours, on flat roads with no wind and good road conditions. Rounding up, that means it will take at least 100Wh for every mile you want to go. If you want 30 miles of range, you need 3000Wh of battery. If it's a 52v system, that means 3000Wh / 52v = 58Ah of battery. Call it 60Ah. Etc.

You may need less power, and you may need less range capability, but you'll have to either use the simulators to guesstimate your usage/etc or experiment once you have it built, to see what actual usage and power requirements are.
Thank you Amberwolf for your suggestions and merging the 2 posts. I started a new one since I think the old one was under a dfferent topic and I wasn't sure how to merge them. It makes sense to merge them and I appreciate your doing so,
 
A helpful post, as always AW.

To offer another data point: I’m rehabbing a 400 pound pedicab (driver weight included) powered by a 800W-rated DD front hub. No problem with traction on dry and wet surfaces. The system peaks at 1200W, and reaches a top speed of 12mph over the course of a city block. The motor is wound pretty slow, which I feel is appropriate and I don’t want more speed.

I need about 400W to maintain a 10-12mph cruise on level ground. The machine is a beast to pedal, since I can’t match the 400 sustained watts of a motor. Though it runs and will carry a passenger or two, uphill starts can be tough and I’d like more power. I’m shifting to buy a 1500-2000W controller, since these are readily available and will hopefully provide enough pep.
Thank you that is helpful. Since I am such a newbie I didn't realize that you could mix and match controllers and motors. I had thought that controller had to be matched to the motor, Just so I understand a different controller if you retain the 800w motor but change the controller you can improve performance?
 
Thank you that is helpful. Since I am such a newbie I didn't realize that you could mix and match controllers and motors. I had thought that controller had to be matched to the motor, Just so I understand a different controller if you retain the 800w motor but change the controller you can improve performance?
You got it. Most any controller will drive any motor, so long at the motor Hall sensors are working. The motor doesn’t care about what’s driving it — it just spins according to the power coming down the phases.

If the Halls are dysfunctional, a “dual mode” square wave controller will operate the motor using only the phase wires. A sine wave controller needs functioning Halls to operate.

I will be pairing a 1500W controller with a 800W rated motor. I’ll be watching the temp to make sure the motor doesn’t get too hot and cook the windings. One could pair a 4000W controller with the same motor— as long as the motor stays cool enough, any controller will do. You can keep feeding power until the motor overheats. Then, you’ve gone too far, and need less power.
 
I will be pairing a 1500W controller with a 800W rated motor. I’ll be watching the temp to make sure the motor doesn’t get too hot and cook the windings.
The Hall effect sensors usually die first.

Motor power ratings are there for a reason, but they reflect a high duty cycle that doesn't often correspond to how we use them. Also sometimes they're arbitrary to make motors conform to limitations in different markets, e.g. "250W" motors that really aren't.
 
The Hall effect sensors usually die first.

Motor power ratings are there for a reason, but they reflect a high duty cycle that doesn't often correspond to how we use them. Also sometimes they're arbitrary to make motors conform to limitations in different markets, e.g. "250W" motors that really aren't.
Thank you
 
The Hall effect sensors usually die first.

Motor power ratings are there for a reason, but they reflect a high duty cycle that doesn't often correspond to how we use them. Also
The Hall effect sensors usually die first.

Motor power ratings are there for a reason, but they reflect a high duty cycle that doesn't often correspond to how we use them. Also sometimes they're arbitrary to make motors conform to limitations in different markets, e.g. "250W" motors that really aren't.

sometimes they're arbitrary to make motors conform to limitations in different markets, e.g. "250W" motors that really aren't.
 
You got it. Most any controller will drive any motor, so long at the motor Hall sensors are working. The motor doesn’t care about what’s driving it — it just spins according to the power coming down the phases.

If the Halls are dysfunctional, a “dual mode” square wave controller will operate the motor using only the phase wires. A sine wave controller needs functioning Halls to operate.

I will be pairing a 1500W controller with a 800W rated motor. I’ll be watching the temp to make sure the motor doesn’t get too hot and cook the windings. One could pair a 4000W controller with the same motor— as long as the motor stays cool enough, any controller will do. You can keep feeding power until the motor overheats. Then, you’ve gone too far, and need less power.
Thank you
 
Thanks to all who have replied. I have been emailing with Miquel at bikes.ca and he is recommending a rear hub to be used on the front based on the fork configuration. Here are his recommendations
Does anyone have any expertise regarding these?
Once again Thank you
 
Thanks to all who have replied. I have been emailing with Miquel at bikes.ca and he is recommending a rear hub to be used on the front based on the fork configuration. Here are his recommendations
Does anyone have any expertise regarding these?
Once again Thank you
You can get an idea about how they will perform by using the Grin motor simulator. I think the GMAC with 10T winding has the slight edge over the other two, and has more torque in the mid range to help that beast get up to speed.
Look at the blue torque curve and how it changes with speed. The GMAC has a very small edge over the eZee off the line, but very similar after that:

Comparing the GMAC with the 9C, the GMAC has a greater advantage in the mid range:

Note that the eZee isn't regen capable per your bullet, unless you plan to weld the clutch. Both the GMAC and 9C can do regent, but probably not something you'd want on a front hub anyway. The GMAC may be the right choice, although that RH212 is a great motor, and easier to cool if heat becomes an issue.
 
You can get an idea about how they will perform by using the Grin motor simulator. I think the GMAC with 10T winding has the slight edge over the other two, and has more torque in the mid range to help that beast get up to speed.
Look at the blue torque curve and how it changes with speed. The GMAC has a very small edge over the eZee off the line, but very similar after that:

Comparing the GMAC with the 9C, the GMAC has a greater advantage in the mid range:

Note that the eZee isn't regen capable per your bullet, unless you plan to weld the clutch. Both the GMAC and 9C can do regent, but probably not something you'd want on a front hub anyway. The GMAC may be the right choice, although that RH212 is a great motor, and easier to cool if heat becomes an issue.
Thank you so much. That information is super helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of the details.
 
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