If you had $600.00 to replace a battery what would you buy?

[Crash Machine]

I got in a wreck recently. Lady ran a stop sign and hit me broadside. This damaged my Ping 48v 15 ah battery among other things. The insurance company is on their way out with a check for a full replacement of the battery plus about $700 for other damages.
So my dilemna is, do I spend the money on a new Ping or should I look in a new direction? Ping has been a stand up guy and the battery has been good to me, going as far as to run the X5 on it's own while I replaced another battery from another wreck. But before I spend any money I wanna ask E.S. members their opinion. Is there an American company I should be looking at? Something new? What would you buy? Thanks guys...

P.s.. Sorry about any multiple posts the android app. won't allow me to edit or erase posts for some reason.

 

[Arlo1]

Lipo Lipo Lipo Lipo!

 

[Crash Machine]

How'd I know that was coming. So what setup? I do long distance trips. I could probably get 20 Ah for that price,huh.
Charging on the road.

 

[EBJ]

i think you would be hard pressed to spend 600 bucks or less w/ lipo to get what you want.
The charger alone will cost you between 200-350 bucks depending on what model you get and what power-supply you get.
The batteries will cost you around 400 bucks for 20Ah @ 36 (37) V.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi Crash Machine,

LiPo is brilliant for a few reasons, probably the main one is the fact you can pull many C from a small pack compared to most LiFeP04. And it's also lighter.

Check these out

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16227__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8000mAh_5S1P_30C_.html

so If you connect 3 x 5S and another 3 in parallel for 16AH in series to give you 55 ish volts, that's around the same as your ping for 440 Dollars + maybe 80 + for shipping.

Then you have to spend around 150 ish dollars on a GOOD LiPo charger and power supply so you are then close to ping territory.

Ping advantage = plug in and forget and it's safe. Higher cycle life at 1C discharge!

Ping disadvantage low C rate on a 15 ah ping you should only be pulling 15-20 amps max maybe get away with 30 peak for acceleration! Pings are also heaver than LiPo!

Lipo advantage = cheap enough, lighter than LiFePo4, can easily add more packs for extra capacity or voltage for extra speed.

LiPo disadvantages = cycle life 300-500 cycles charging to 4.15 V per cell, Not charging below 3.5V being the general accepted charge voltage here on ES
Fire is also a possibility if abused, I.E over charge or discharge or short!
You will also need cell logs for monitoring voltages while out on a ride as there is no BMS for LiPo yet, and it can be a pain reconnecting packs for charging and back again for the bike!

Personally I wouldn't go back now to LiFeP04 simply because a good high C rate LiFeP04 is very expensive, but sometimes a BMS can be handy and I like to pedal a lot so the lighter LiPo is very much appreciated by me! If it was my commuter bike I would probably have LiFeP04 for handiness and longer life and because I probably wouldn't be peddling that much, I would be just focused on getting there and back as quick as possible, but for lightness and C rate nothing beats LiPo!


Mark

 

[wesnewell]

I'd buy 12 6s bricks of lipo and wire it 24s3p for 3000Wh. Or 18s4p. Or 12s6p. Depending on how I wanted to use it and what my controller would take. AH is relative. What really matters is Wh.

 

[snowranger]

Yes, go lipo. Buy a cheap RC charger or battery medic for balancing only. Once you know everything is balanced well, then bulk charge up to 4.1 volts using a cheap King Pan charger. Balance the cells only when you need to which won't be too often. Use a cheap volt meter or watts up meter to stop riding at about 43 volts (for 12S). This setup will allow you to use about 80% of the capacity safely. The key though is to make sure all your cells are good before you do this.

Here's a cheapo budget off the top of my head for a 15ah 12 S 3P .

6 X 6S 5ah 20 C turnigy = $50*6=300
balance charger =$50
PSU = $30
king pan charger= $90
bullet connectors/wire/box = $40
watts up meter = $50
your labor = free
__________________
total $560

 

[dogman dan]

Knowing what I do about your use pattern and needs, I'd be inclined to just say get another ping, or something similar but lighter like the battery being sold by Chicago Electric Bikes.

On the other hand, to run the x5, you'd be wanting some A123's like cellman has. But for the $700, a lot less range.

Lipo, has the advantage of cheap price and freaky huge c rate. But half the cycles is likely. So price per mile may not be much different than A123.

Personally, I'd rather deal with lifepo4 charging than lipo out on the road, but lipo is definitely an option. You could perhaps carry more range, then charge at night with lipo. 12s lipo is a nice voltage and easy to manage for charging, even if you do it the "hard way" like I do. I use a pair of 150w chargers running on one meanwell. About 50w faster than a 48v 5 amp ping charger. So it sure as hell doesn't have to be slow and painful to charge lipo out on the road. Bulky compared to a ping charger though. So what if it takes 60 seconds to set up compared to 10.

Man, you crash more than I do. That's pretty bad.

 

[dogman dan]

Re the king pan charger. Don't do that. I tested that with my 36v ping charger. It overcharges the crap out of a few of the cells.

I would NOT trust a lifepo4 charger to shut off at the right time. My ping charger does not slow down enough at the end of charge. You'd have to sit there with a voltmeter watching it, unless you have some kind of way to make it shut off much earlier.

If, on the other hand, you know damn well you will be riding off with a lot less than a full charge, you can shoot some current into a lipo pack with a lifepo4 charger. So not a top off, but just an add more thing would be ok.

Stop riding 12s lipo at 45v. 46v even better.

 

[Arlo1]

HK has lipo for $.29 a watt hour and i dont know if you can beat that price with any other battery right now! My charger cost me ~$50 and runs at 900watts!

 

[dogman dan]

Is that those 4s hardcase packs? Those would work well for a 16s setup, charged with two 8s chargers. Assuming your contoller works for 16s that is.

 

[snowranger]

Re the king pan charger. Don't do that. I tested that with my 36v ping charger. It overcharges the crap out of a few of the cells.

I would NOT trust a lifepo4 charger to shut off at the right time. My ping charger does not slow down enough at the end of charge. You'd have to sit there with a voltmeter watching it, unless you have some kind of way to make it shut off much earlier.

Did you turn the voltage down using the trim pot?

 

[dogman dan]

Yes. It should have stopped charging while at about 4.1 per cell. But it did not since the cells were not perfectly balanced. That's the risk, if the pack isn't balanced. I caught it because I was watching close with a cell log, and didn't let any cells get over 4.22. I turned it down to about 40v, and it still overcharged em. All went to 4.18 before I stopped it.

Could be the charger is not working right of course.

I'm not saying it can't work, just that it didn't for me. And I wouldn't turn my back on it. Great way to put a partial charge in when on the road. Say you are at 3.8 v, and you know it would take 2 hours to get to 4.2v. Nothing wrong then with an hour break while you eat, and putting such a charger on the pack.

I just think that lipo is a lot more likely to run off and overcharge a cell. Then you get the risk of running a cell that got overcharged, and you may not know it ever happend.

It might be less likely to overcharge a large block of paralelled packs. I was testing with a single 5 ah 10s pack, and 36v ping charger.

 

[999zip999]

X5 = A cellman A123 pack for a easy charge.

 

[snowranger]

I was thinking that 4.1 volts gives you a bit of headroom. In my pack for example, the largest cell gap is .010 volts, so I would expect the cells to range from 4.09 to 4.11 volts if you are targeting 4.1 per cell.

DogMan, did all your cells go to 4.2 or was it only some of them? They should all add up to the total charger voltage. Perhaps, the charger voltage was not correct or your cells were not balanced well?

 

[gensem]

There is some brilliant stuff coming from Gary in the coming weeks.
His board that allow us to bulk charge 12s2-4p lipo without having to worry about single cell overcharging is amazing.

 

[Crash Machine]

Thanks for the input guys. Insurance guy dropped off the check and took the broken battery and parts. Hated to see the old Ping go. Carried me many a mile.
My problem is I "opportunity charge" all over. Setting up LiPo chargers seems daunting might make people nervous. I am gonna sit on the money for the weekend and think about it. I've been thinking about LiPo for a while. The thought of 16s ,and obviously the weight factor of Lipo is appealing but catastrophic failure on the road is not possible.
If the new bms solution ggoodrum is working on comes out fast enough I may jump on it. Being able to carry only a meanwell would be the key for me.If not for this bike then maybe for a more comfortable touring bike I've been thinkin of. The crashes are catchin up with me. Thanks again

Btw. Friend of mine just gave me 2005?Honda Civic hybrid battery from a totalled car. Not sure what to do with it...

 

[Arlo1]

My problem is I "opportunity charge" all over. Setting up LiPo chargers seems daunting might make people nervous. I am gonna sit on the money for the weekend and think about it. I've been thinking about LiPo for a while. The thought of 16s ,and obviously the weight factor of Lipo is appealing but catastrophic failure on the road is not possible.
If the new bms solution ggoodrum is working on comes out fast enough I may jump on it. Being able to carry only a meanwell would be the key for me.

I only charge with a meanwell I dont even own a lipo charger only a meanwell and I have over 350 cycles on my 24s 2p 10ah pack I try not to run them down to far and since xmas I have not ballanced once! I just use the $12 cell moniters that beep when you hit 4.22 on any one cell!!! I have 4 mksppro ballancers that when needed I ballance with but I found the trick is to unplug the cell moniters when not in use because they unballance the pack!

 

[jonescg]

Why not go for A123 pouches? Will do more than adequately for your needs, and they are safe, easy to balance and charge, and last a long time. Give old Cell_Man a call

 

[amberwolf]

Btw. Friend of mine just gave me 2005?Honda Civic hybrid battery from a totalled car. Not sure what to do with it...

Those are NiMH, right? I can think of a few things, if it's as big a pack as I'm thinking of. I couldnt' find actual numbers when I did a quick google, but I only spent about a minute on it.

Most likely it is a high-voltage single-string (1P) pack, with fairly low Ah capacity, but high Wh becuase of the large number of cells in it. To use it on the bike for range purposes you'd either want to keep a high-voltage system (at least 100V, maybe) with a motor system geared down to run normal speeds at that voltage, or to use it with an existing lower-voltage system you'd have to setup a carefully-managed charge-in-series (or as separate 1P strings) but use-in-parallel (with diodes) pack.

Are you still using the Fusin geared hub motor system? Or a thru-the-gears system? Or are you looking to start over with a new build? (one with armor plating and a roll cage :lol

 

[snowranger]

Re the king pan charger. Don't do that. I tested that with my 36v ping charger. It overcharges the crap out of a few of the cells.

My hyperion does bulk charging fine (at 5% increments), but I think you can get decent accuracy with the king pan. Simply, calibrate the trim pot as you are approaching your desired end of charge. I might try this with one of my old ping chargers.

 

[Crash Machine]

Those are NiMH, right? I can think of a few things, if it's as big a pack as I'm thinking of. I couldnt' find actual numbers when I did a quick google, but I only spent about a minute on it.

Most likely it is a high-voltage single-string (1P) pack, with fairly low Ah capacity, but high Wh becuase of the large number of cells in it. To use it on the bike for range purposes you'd either want to keep a high-voltage system (at least 100V, maybe) with a motor system geared down to run normal speeds at that voltage, or to use it with an existing lower-voltage system you'd have to setup a carefully-managed charge-in-series (or as separate 1P strings) but use-in-parallel (with diodes) pack.

Are you still using the Fusin geared hub motor system? Or a thru-the-gears system? Or are you looking to start over with a new build? (one with armor plating and a roll cage :lol

Not really using the Fusin motor. I was gonna use it for a push trailer project maybe till the accident. Ya I am lookin at building something comfortable; recumbent or tadpole. The wreck did serious damage to my neck and back this time. If I do a Lipo pack it will be the biggest one I can.
I will post a seperate thread about the hybrid battery but ya its NiMh. 144 v 6.5 Ah. Maybe break it down to 48v 19.5 Ah or a giant 12v trolling motor battery.
So bulk charging has worked for others...

 

[dogman dan]

I continue to be amazed at the number of people that think setting up a lipo charger is complicated, difficult, takes a lot of time. Yes, it's physicaly bigger to carry than a ping charger, but not so big when you consider that a typical meanwell charges at 350w.

With a good series harness to run from, and a good paralell harness to charge from, you'd rarely have to do more than unplug one plug, and plug in another to setup a regular 300w charger.

Hard to charge is NOT a reason to avoid lipo. Lower cycle life could be, but many of us will want to go to something improved in a year or so anyway.

But I still like my ping for a daily ride to work, charge, ride back. I simply don't need lighter weight, smaller, or higher c rate for that particular task. But for packing maximum range or maximum amps onto a bike, lipo would be better.

 

[auraslip]

Just a heads up, but in 2-3 months I should have about 24 12s 240w KP chargers, and 24 18s 360w KP chargers - both tuned for LIPO. After shipping they should come out to around the price of a genuine new meanwell unit. Paired with one of the new 12s LIPO BMS boards, it should be a great solution.

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds like a good charger, when used with the bms boards. It's king power charger used without any kind of bms that frightens me. You just need a solid way to reliably shut off the input in time.