Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Making something more efficient to reduce the heat created in the first place would be good, though; if that's what you meant.

Yes, that is what I meant.

(Example) If two motors are going against a headwind or up a hill at the same speed at the same load then I would expect the less efficient one to shut down the integrated controller first.

Thus increasing motor efficiency is very important if we want to keep these types of ebikes operating rather than needing to protect themselves.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Quite possibly the older version i was mentioning:
750W hub motor For Sale | MAC Motor

138mm was needed to support a 7 speed freewheel back then i think,

Mac Motor just got back to me today and said that model you linked (the Y180) uses .35mm laminations, not the .27mm laminations found their on motors since 2016.

So yes, that must be the older version. Most likely new old stock (NOS).

 

[Bullfrog]

Note that you don't need to seal your motor, or even open it. With my MXUS, I drilled and tapped a hole in the sidecover, squirted it in, and plugged it with a set screw. With my Leaf, I opened the motor to add the temp sensor and apply the Statorade. That was a lot more satisfying (pretty cool how it flows by itself). You can see when you apply it that it's not going anywhere, and it's only a few cc's, and not enough to even make it to a seam that would leak. I'll be tearing down my motor to inspect the windings and re-apply Statorade (8k miles, so overdue), hopefully next week. I'm hoping it will look pristine, even after being subject to some mild abuse.

Thanks...I agree that Statorade should stay in place. I did read where Justin had it leak out of the side cover on a motor he had in his wind tunnel when initially testing but it was before he started selling Statorade and the formulation could have changed.

This is the thread where he showed it leaking but I don't remember exactly which post...it is a big thread:

Definitive Tests on the Heating and Cooling of Hub Motors

I liked the idea of having your copper fill be the heat pipes! That is Bruce Lee wisdom. (Become the water...) Well put! Given that some of the motors are running just like 3 turns per pole, it's not totally out of context for that to be an engineered copper tube rather than like a dozen...

endless-sphere.com

When you open your motor, please let us know what you find...Thanks Again .

 

[Bullfrog]

Don't forget there is a need for higher end ebikes as well. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing developments in hub motors like Mahle x20 (a tiny integrated wireless torque sensing hub motor.)

View attachment 351132

Besides what has been mentioned in the thread I think thinner laminations is going to help durability of hub integrated batteries, controllers and sensors as well. This especially in hub motors that are smaller than what we normally see.

I know the vast majority of people here (in this forum) don't like integrated hub motors but I have been seeing them become more popular. You mention the Chinese market we'll here are two that came out in 2023:

P130 ALL-IN-ONE Rear Motor

ALL-IN-ONE: Built-in battery, controller, sensor, connection module, etc.

keyde.com

P160 ALL-IN-ONE Rear Motor

ALL-IN-ONE: Built-in battery, controller, sensor, connection module, etc.

keyde.com

(I also really like how the battery inside the hub motor charges via a 100 watt usb-c pd port--> PD Charger. 100 watt USB-C opens up so many possibilities including power bank usage when not close to a power outlet.)

Note despite being a geared hub motor they are still advertising 90% efficiency (which AFAIK is best in class. Besides this Keyde at 90% the best efficiency I have ever seen for a geared hub motor was 87%). My guess is the extra efficiency is there to keep the temperature sensor from shutting down the integrated controller during high heat conditions.

I've read Keyde has been persisting with these all-in-one hub motors for something like 10 years. If there was no demand for them in the Chinese market and elsewhere I don't we would still see them releasing new versions.

With that noted I don't think there is currently an all-in-one direct drive hub motor on the market.

My comment on the number of ebikes in China was not meant to be directed towards anyone in particular, just for those that weren't aware...based on the info you post, IMO you are very aware .

Thanks for the links and the video...even though I am an old fart, I still enjoy learning about things.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks...I agree that Statorade should stay in place. I did read where Justin had it leak out of the side cover on a motor he had in his wind tunnel when initially testing but it was before he started selling Statorade and the formulation could have changed.
When you open your motor, please let us know what you find...Thanks Again .

I did this....in a leaf. Painted stator + vented side covers + forced air (12 x 25mm fans in series) + Statorade + heatsinks (pre hub-sinks being available).
It worked fantastic and let me push 8KW through it for brief bursts and cooled off very fast.

I did open it up after several thousand kms. As expected, the Statorade absorbed dirt/dust and turned to muck. It wasn't as bad as I expected TBH, so I just cleaned off, re-applied statorade and kept riding.
The photos were all in the cooling fans in hub motors thread, but all disappeared when postimage went down.
I'll see if I can dig some up later to re-post here.

Cheers

 

[99t4]

I know the vast majority of people here (in this forum) don't like integrated hub motors but I have been seeing them become more popular.

Maybe it is just a longstanding preconception but I personally am still uncomfortable with the idea of housing the heat-sensitive batteries inside a heat-producing motor enclosure. Unless maybe they have devised some form of high-functioning insulation? Same for the heat-sensitive controller components.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Here you go, just a few of the old shots I found of it. Yes, wiping off the muck also removed most of the varnish from the magnets, but who cares....I just reapplied Statorade and kept going.
Sold that motor along with a Crystalyte HS4065 that had the same treatment/mods done. Both worked fantastic and could push about 8KW peaks.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I should also mention in that list of mods, I also massively upgraded the phase wires. Pushing fine stranded 10AWG silicone wire through the axle, and connecting to 8AWG just outside the axle.
In order to push the 10AWG through required stripping off the silicone insulation and replacing with heatshrink. In order to fit all that, plus 18AWG power wires for my fans I also had change the hall sensor wires to 36AWG wires....thin as hair! I also reamed out the axle hole a bit with a drill and dremel.

Cheers

 

[Bullfrog]

Maybe it is just a longstanding preconception but I personally am still uncomfortable with the idea of housing the heat-sensitive batteries inside a heat-producing motor enclosure. Unless maybe they have devised some form of high-functioning insulation? Same for the heat-sensitive controller components.

I agree with you.

 

[Bullfrog]

Here you go, just a few of the old shots I found of it. Yes, wiping off the muck also removed most of the varnish from the magnets, but who cares....I just reapplied Statorade and kept going.
Sold that motor along with a Crystalyte HS4065 that had the same treatment/mods done. Both worked fantastic and could push about 8KW peaks.

Cheers

Thanks for the pics.

I am still torn whether to use Statorade, Drill my side covers, or Both. I am waiting on some parts and I'll decide before the new parts arrive.

 

[E-HP]

Smart setup, i remember Justin suggesting this. Curious to see the insides!

I'll post some pics. I'll probably pop it open on today. I got another syringe of Statorade off of Amazon.

Here you go, just a few of the old shots I found of it. Yes, wiping off the muck also removed most of the varnish from the magnets, but who cares....I just reapplied Statorade and kept going.
Sold that motor along with a Crystalyte HS4065 that had the same treatment/mods done. Both worked fantastic and could push about 8KW peaks.

Cheers

How did you attach those heat sinks? I’m doing the same thing and was planning on using thermal glue. I’m putting some thin strips of two way thermal tape near the edges to hold them in place while the glue sets.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'll post some pics. I'll probably pop it open on today. I got another syringe of Statorade off of Amazon.

How did you attach those heat sinks? I’m doing the same thing and was planning on using thermal glue. I’m putting some thin strips of two way thermal tape near the edges to hold them in place while the glue sets.

I would be interested to hear about the Hub Sinks installation as well.

Just ordered Statorade and Hub Sinks from Grin...decided to forego the Ultra Low Viscosity ATF that is now available since leakage through the wires would still occur and I am hesitant to drill my side covers and run Statorade due to potential contamination.

I have been using the RH212 motor in the Grin Tech Motor Simulator to get a SWAG on temps for my Leaf motor...I just make everything the same and manually adjust Kv for the RH212 until the speeds match. With Statorade in the motor and running a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" tire (OD=637mm) it suggests a Steady State motor temp of 135C with my Leaf 4T motor and a top speed of ~47 mph on flat ground if I am using a 72v battery/80A controller:

 

[E-HP]

I would be interested to hear about the Hub Sinks installation as well.

Just ordered Statorade and Hub Sinks from Grin

I’m not installing the usual add on hub sinks because I don’t want my bike to scream hot rodded ebike, so I’m adding low profile ones like Cowardlyduck appears to be using. I bought a box of them, normally used to cool IC chips, but with dimensions that fit nicely on the hub recess. I’m not expecting a lot, but I ‘m hoping for a small measurable improvement. If they drop the temps a few degrees on my test hills, I’d be satisfied. I believe the adhesive I’m using still allows them to be pried if in case I need to replace a spoke.

 

[Bullfrog]

I’m not installing the usual add on hub sinks because I don’t want my bike to scream hot rodded ebike, so I’m adding low profile ones like Cowardlyduck appears to be using. I bought a box of them, normally used to cool IC chips, but with dimensions that fit nicely on the hub recess. I’m not expecting a lot, but I ‘m hoping for a small measurable improvement. If they drop the temps a few degrees on my test hills, I’d be satisfied. I believe the adhesive I’m using still allows them to be pried if in case I need to replace a spoke.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[E-HP]

8k miles plus, and I couldn't be happier. The windings look pristine, just like new.




There's still a little of the carrier fluid left, but definitely needs topping off.



The Statorade is right where I put it originally, between the magnets. If I look from the side. level with the magnets, I can see the Statorade fluid and particles sitting just above the plane of the magnets, so should have been providing some partial cooling even though it's running low.


At this point, I need to make a decision on how much additional Statorade to add, since the space between the magnets is already filled, so I don't want to overfill it. I'm going to try 5 milliliters, and do a few temp tests during the week. If it's back to how it worked before, that will be good enough, and testing will give me new baseline data to use so I can add the heat sinks to see if I can detect an improvement.

Anyway, I'm just so happy, that I haven't even done any of my other maintenance checks yet. I still need to check my bearings, and bike maintenance stuff like lubing the freewheel since I have it off. To tell you the truth, I always procrastinate when it come to taking off my hub motor, but when I do it, it's really not that big a pain. I remove all of my batteries and bags before flipping the bike over, but even will that stuff, it was only 15 minutes to get to where the wheel was off and stator out.

Statistics-wise, I estimate that I've had the motor above 100C about 20 times, and above 90C maybe 40 (to many times to count in the high 80Cs). The highest temp reached 111C at a near stall; so nothing super abusive, but lots of hills. If, with the heat sinks, I can keep the motor in the mid-90C range during conditions where I would normally bump up against 100C, then I'll be happy.

EDIT: when I touched the Statorade between the magnets is was liquid and oily on my skin, so still flowing correctly. I decided to just add a few mils, just enough so it looked the same as the first time I added it (sitting about 1/32"-1/16"" higher than the magnets. I took the bike out just to see that it's working, about a block round trip. With the new Hookworms mounted, it feels a little scary due to the rounded profile which allows it to dive quickly into a turn. Once I get confident in the traction, this will be a positive. It feels like rolling resistance was cut in half with the slick treads and higher pressure, so it accelerates noticeably faster. In any case, it may be fun to do the road warrior thing for a while, and maybe try a few 0-30 runs to see what kind of improvement the tires really make.



I love how the Statorade flows. I didn't even press the syringe at all, and just held the tip to the magnets and it sucked it out of the syringe. I did all of the magnets without even touching the plunger.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Too bad Leaf bike 1500w has steel stator support.

Add Aluminum stator support to the list of improvements needed on a revised cassette version of the hub.

148 x 12mm boost would offer so many advantages besides actually fitting properly. One, of course, being the availability of 9T and 10T top gears which allows regular sized chainrings when using 20" rims.

Speaking of 20" rims, leaf bike also uses the 35mm on their 1500w bmx hub. Switching that hub to cassette driver (which is the type of drive used on modern bmx) from freewheel means top gear can be as low as 9T rather than 16T.

 

[Bullfrog]

8k miles plus, and I couldn't be happier. The windings look pristine, just like new.


View attachment 351220

There's still a little of the carrier fluid left, but definitely needs topping off.

View attachment 351221

The Statorade is right where I put it originally, between the magnets. If I look from the side. level with the magnets, I can see the Statorade fluid and particles sitting just above the plane of the magnets, so should have been providing some partial cooling even though it's running low.
View attachment 351222

At this point, I need to make a decision on how much additional Statorade to add, since the space between the magnets is already filled, so I don't want to overfill it. I'm going to try 5 milliliters, and do a few temp tests during the week. If it's back to how it worked before, that will be good enough, and testing will give me new baseline data to use so I can add the heat sinks to see if I can detect an improvement.

Anyway, I'm just so happy, that I haven't even done any of my other maintenance checks yet. I still need to check my bearings, and bike maintenance stuff like lubing the freewheel since I have it off. To tell you the truth, I always procrastinate when it come to taking off my hub motor, but when I do it, it's really not that big a pain. I remove all of my batteries and bags before flipping the bike over, but even will that stuff, it was only 15 minutes to get to where the wheel was off and stator out.

Statistics-wise, I estimate that I've had the motor above 100C about 20 times, and above 90C maybe 40 (to many times to count in the high 80Cs). The highest temp reached 111C at a near stall; so nothing super abusive, but lots of hills. If, with the heat sinks, I can keep the motor in the mid-90C range during conditions where I would normally bump up against 100C, then I'll be happy.

EDIT: when I touched the Statorade between the magnets is was liquid and oily on my skin, so still flowing correctly. I decided to just add a few mils, just enough so it looked the same as the first time I added it (sitting about 1/32"-1/16"" higher than the magnets. I took the bike out just to see that it's working, about a block round trip. With the new Hookworms mounted, it feels a little scary due to the rounded profile which allows it to dive quickly into a turn. Once I get confident in the traction, this will be a positive. It feels like rolling resistance was cut in half with the slick treads and higher pressure, so it accelerates noticeably faster. In any case, it may be fun to do the road warrior thing for a while, and maybe try a few 0-30 runs to see what kind of improvement the tires really make.

View attachment 351225

I love how the Statorade flows. I didn't even press the syringe at all, and just held the tip to the magnets and it sucked it out of the syringe. I did all of the magnets without even touching the plunger.

It does look good .
Justin recommended I use the no load amperage and add Statorade until I get a slight increase in no load amperage to tell when I have enough Statorade...I just ordered mine and haven't even opened my motor yet to drill a fill port.
The "How Much to Use?" section might help: Statorade - Grin Products - Product Info

 

[neptronix]

Too bad Leaf bike 1500w has steel stator support.

Add Aluminum stator support to the list of improvements needed on a revised cassette version of the hub.

148 x 12mm boost would offer so many advantages besides actually fitting properly. One, of course, being the availability of 9T and 10T top gears which allows regular sized chainrings when using 20" rims.

Speaking of 20" rims, leaf bike also uses the 35mm on their 1500w bmx hub. Switching that hub to cassette driver (which is the type of drive used on modern bmx) from freewheel means top gear can be as low as 9T rather than 16T.

Don't expect them to make any improvements. I haven't seen anything other than minor changes since the start of this thread. They know i am the reason why this motor is so popular but won't listen to any of my suggestions even

If you have a cargo bike and the motor can go in the front, this motor doesn't have a rating yet but i have a feeling it will kick the Leaf's ass in the power/weight department:
Fat All-Axle Deposit

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

If you have a cargo bike and the motor can go in the front, this motor doesn't have a rating yet but i have a feeling it will kick the Leaf's ass in the power/weight department:
Fat All-Axle Deposit

That is a great motor. Not only does it have an aluminum stator support it has an an aluminum hub shell with a PCD of only 214mm. This despite it using the same 205mm diameter stator as hubs with PCD of 232mm.

Too bad grin didn't have a 35mm wide stator version of the Grin all axle. 35mm is just perfect for 148 x 12mm boost and 110mm BMX with cassette driver.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

How did you attach those heat sinks? I’m doing the same thing and was planning on using thermal glue. I’m putting some thin strips of two way thermal tape near the edges to hold them in place while the glue sets.

I tried various methods including double sided thermal tape (didn't work), thermal pads with string tied tight around all of them (also didn't work) and finally thermal epoxy.
The thermal epoxy worked....mostly. I did have the occasional heatsink turn into a projectile at speed and fly off the hub, but I just replaced those (only a handful) and eventually they stopped falling off.

Cheers

 

[E-HP]

I tried various methods including double sided thermal tape (didn't work), thermal pads with string tied tight around all of them (also didn't work) and finally thermal epoxy.
The thermal epoxy worked....mostly. I did have the occasional heatsink turn into a projectile at speed and fly off the hub, but I just replaced those (only a handful) and eventually they stopped falling off.

Cheers

Thanks. It may take some experimentation since I want them to be removable for spoke maintenance. My current plan is to use this thermal glue for the main surface

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07L7WFSJ2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and use the two way thermal tape on the leading and trailing edges to hold the sinks in place until the glue cures.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZKYDG84/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and then add stainless safety wire up the center around the circumference for insurance.

https://www.amazon.com/032-Stainless-Repairing-Motorcycles-Aircraft/dp/B0CNWCLZXF/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1UZGYTDV8AECX&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xTGjOl6g_qFdQKH3LPVWM9ns5Uh_WaRVGMfbaLHesPLvaQTMhYSU__cMRCjtNZuOajtiynl31ysGbl-oihneAkpAfqMh3m1ZaqdGzzgYO48JK5XtJjkHvvtSt1u_ddO6S7oAtODCu5uEUpCYNm_ApVq6DsrQv35xkL224SuJTtBiNmNa5q3Izxx3E0PpCVgZQ4d1HPu6UrJWDVSJxguoptj-YFuX9l-6gn9girvixwE.Q42IgXYvaNpiB3Gjq5jWHQVZPDtREuvvAzEWwJqyNCQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=safety%2Bwire&qid=1713313854&sprefix=safety%2Bwir%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-5&th=1

I see this one part thermal epoxy online. I'm wondering if it would work but still removable.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mg-chemicals/9460TC-3ML/13997491?utm_adgroup=&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Pmax_Shopping_Product_Silicon%20Valley%20Category%20Awareness&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_id=go_cmp-20773039395_adg-_ad-__dev-c_ext-_prd-13997491_sig-EAIaIQobChMI1_ik3__HhQMVmhYGAB2sOQCzEAQYBCABEgIz4vD_BwE&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1_ik3__HhQMVmhYGAB2sOQCzEAQYBCABEgIz4vD_BwE

Sounds like the epoxy you used may still be removable with some coercion?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Problem with steel is that only has 1/5 to 1/6 the thermal conductivity of aluminium.

So even if your statorade is effective at transferring heat to your steel hub shell I don't think the steel hubshell itself will be good enough at transferring heat to your heatsinks. Remember the heatsinks also add drag. Increased drag itself causes increased power consumption, heat and reduced battery life.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

If I remember what I used I'll let you know, but I'm pretty sure I just found some 2 part thermally conductive epoxy and used that. The wire idea will also help.

Honestly, you should just get/use hubsinks. Way easier to install/remove and probably more effective than any DIY setup.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Problem with steel is that only has 1/5 to 1/6 the thermal conductivity of aluminium.

So even if your statorade is effective at transferring heat to your steel hub shell I don't think the steel hubshell itself will be good enough at transferring heat to your heatsinks. Remember the heatsinks also add drag. Increased drag itself causes increased power consumption, heat and reduced battery life.

The side covers are typically aluminium. Only the stator support and magnet ring are steel.

 

[E-HP]

Honestly, you should just get/use hubsinks. Way easier to install/remove and probably more effective than any DIY setup.

Cheers

I just don't like the way they look, so I'm willing to deal with the hassle. I'm only looking for -5C, if possible.

Your experience saves me a lot of headaches. I was on the fence about the safety wire.