Allex
100 MW
Which one are all excited about?
Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
Kodin
1 kW
The 35mm is the 1000W model, right? I am curious why the 1000W vs. The 1500W model...?
The 40mm model is the one I want to see on the sim. My reasoning is its the closest in spec to the similarly classed MXUS motor.
The 40mm model is the one I want to see on the sim. My reasoning is its the closest in spec to the similarly classed MXUS motor.
HamsterPower
10 mW
Allex said:
The confusion is likely mine so let me revisit the data to clarify.
The excitement is around the thinner .35mm laminations used by Leaf. The one in the title, 1500w is the 205mm stator diameter, 35H (35mm wide magnets), comes stock with 4T and is confirmed to have the .35mm laminations.
The Leafbike website shows a diagram that pictures both the 1000w and the 1500w versions. The 1500w version has an OD of 40mm <--- likely my confusion spot.
Does anyone know if both the 1000w and the 1500w versions come with the .35mm laminations?
But yes please, we want the 1500w (regardless of turn) tested!
Kodin
1 kW
Oh derp.... The MXUS is 40mm that's right. Leafbike is 5mm smaller. Yeah I want to see that one sent to Justin.
cwah
100 MW
mxus is 45mm i think
Samd
10 MW
Correct. 10mm more than leaf!
teslanv
1 MW
Yep. 28% wider stator on the MXUS.Samd said:
Also the MXUS V2 has an aluminum stator, vs the leaf's stamped steel.
Allex
100 MW
What I would want to see is ferrofluid working on stamped vs Alu stator.
Ferrofluid makes the heat transform quick to the outer shell and from there to the sidecovers, this is where you actually want the heat to be - outside the motor and not build up inside the aluminium stator. I think the only good thing about thick alu stator is that it can suck up a lot of heat during one extreme run, but once it is saturated, you are toast and have to kindly wait for 30-60min until it cools down.
So my believe without any testing is:
Alu stator - good for closed motor without any cooling mods and if you dont mind extra weight and extra long time before a cool down.
Stamped - better for liquid cooling mods so the heat can transfer to the outside, weight reduction is a big plus -you dont need that chunk of metal once ferrofliud is working out for you.
Quote from Justin:
There's a chance that we may be able to fit the crystalyte core in the leaf shell and visa versa to see what amount of any observed difference is a result of lamination steel vs. magnetic field strength in the shell.
I've lately taken to using thermal grease as the sealing compound when putting motors together and that seems to do a fine job not only of preventing any FerroFluid leakage but also ensuring easier conductive heat transfer from the magnets/rotor ring to the side plates for increased dissipation area.
The motor will probably ship out to Justin Friday this week.
Ferrofluid makes the heat transform quick to the outer shell and from there to the sidecovers, this is where you actually want the heat to be - outside the motor and not build up inside the aluminium stator. I think the only good thing about thick alu stator is that it can suck up a lot of heat during one extreme run, but once it is saturated, you are toast and have to kindly wait for 30-60min until it cools down.
So my believe without any testing is:
Alu stator - good for closed motor without any cooling mods and if you dont mind extra weight and extra long time before a cool down.
Stamped - better for liquid cooling mods so the heat can transfer to the outside, weight reduction is a big plus -you dont need that chunk of metal once ferrofliud is working out for you.
Quote from Justin:
There's a chance that we may be able to fit the crystalyte core in the leaf shell and visa versa to see what amount of any observed difference is a result of lamination steel vs. magnetic field strength in the shell.
I've lately taken to using thermal grease as the sealing compound when putting motors together and that seems to do a fine job not only of preventing any FerroFluid leakage but also ensuring easier conductive heat transfer from the magnets/rotor ring to the side plates for increased dissipation area.
The motor will probably ship out to Justin Friday this week.
Kodin
1 kW
That's a great tip about using thermal grease for the side covers! Now I know what to do with my huge tube of AS5... XD
__mike
100 mW
Hi Guys,
For anyone interested I replaced my Mac10T with a leaf 1500w 5T as the clutch is unhealthy. Battery power / draw was left the same with the only change being increasing the up ramp on the CAv3. 16s / Zippy 35c lipos/ em3ev 4011 9fet /~2000watts. AUW increased from 23kg to 25.5kg. Am using a lighter rim and freewheel. A little more tail heavy but not too drastic.
This is my first DD hub and at this power level it is not as exciting overall as the Mac. The Mac has a lot more off the line grunt but my seat of the pants tells me the leaf catches up once up to speed. For wheelies the Mac is hands down a lot more capable BUT with more power I think the leaf could be better as the power delivery seems smoother and more controllable.
For an acceleration comparison up a hill near where I live the Mac reached 45km/hr during 3 runs on different days. The leaf 42km/hr and 43km/hr. Sitting / no pedaling
Top speed on knobblies - no pedaling / flat tarmac / sheltered from breeze / upright seating position - Mac 50-51km/hr. Leaf 56km/hr. The leaf has more to give as I was drawing ~2000watts at this speed. This set up is obviously hungry for more amps but I prefer to leave it as is for now. I nearly bought the 6t but I wanted Minimum of 50km/hr top speed.
Motor was hot to touch after drawing 3.46ah but it is 35degrees C outside. Estimate 70degrees.
When I get a few more rides i'll have a better idea of power consumption between the 2.
Temp sensor wont work with the CAv3. its plugged into the Hall plug with the white wire and reads either 0.5degrees or 240 depending if I select 10k or linear. Anyone have any suggestions?
I think I need a more reliable Mac
Mike
For anyone interested I replaced my Mac10T with a leaf 1500w 5T as the clutch is unhealthy. Battery power / draw was left the same with the only change being increasing the up ramp on the CAv3. 16s / Zippy 35c lipos/ em3ev 4011 9fet /~2000watts. AUW increased from 23kg to 25.5kg. Am using a lighter rim and freewheel. A little more tail heavy but not too drastic.
This is my first DD hub and at this power level it is not as exciting overall as the Mac. The Mac has a lot more off the line grunt but my seat of the pants tells me the leaf catches up once up to speed. For wheelies the Mac is hands down a lot more capable BUT with more power I think the leaf could be better as the power delivery seems smoother and more controllable.
For an acceleration comparison up a hill near where I live the Mac reached 45km/hr during 3 runs on different days. The leaf 42km/hr and 43km/hr. Sitting / no pedaling
Top speed on knobblies - no pedaling / flat tarmac / sheltered from breeze / upright seating position - Mac 50-51km/hr. Leaf 56km/hr. The leaf has more to give as I was drawing ~2000watts at this speed. This set up is obviously hungry for more amps but I prefer to leave it as is for now. I nearly bought the 6t but I wanted Minimum of 50km/hr top speed.
Motor was hot to touch after drawing 3.46ah but it is 35degrees C outside. Estimate 70degrees.
When I get a few more rides i'll have a better idea of power consumption between the 2.
Temp sensor wont work with the CAv3. its plugged into the Hall plug with the white wire and reads either 0.5degrees or 240 depending if I select 10k or linear. Anyone have any suggestions?
I think I need a more reliable Mac
Mike
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markz
100 TW
Nice looking bike by the way. Well its good to know about your experiences with both motors. Why did you buy a 5T Leaf? Why not a 3T?
cwah
100 MW
You need to buy motor with bigger stator like the mxus 2 at 45mm to catch up with torque
HamsterPower
10 mW
__mike said:
Is this why the Leaf temp sensor is also reportedly having issues with the Adaptto controllers?
For commuters that are happy with 1200W (48V X 25A), the geared MAC is efficient and light. When you approach 2000W, there will occasionally be issues with the clutch and heat-shedding (as you have stated).
I think the extra weight of the Leafbike 1500W is unnecessary unless you are making the jump to 2600W (52V X 50A). If you raise the amps from its current setting, and add Ferro Fluid (FF), I think you will be much more pleased with the Leafbike motor. 2600W is a different league, but of course, the battery will lose some range compared to using the geared hub at 2000W.
You don't have to explain why you would want a full-suspension frame for the street, but if used for off-road, I highly recommend investigating mid drives.
I think the extra weight of the Leafbike 1500W is unnecessary unless you are making the jump to 2600W (52V X 50A). If you raise the amps from its current setting, and add Ferro Fluid (FF), I think you will be much more pleased with the Leafbike motor. 2600W is a different league, but of course, the battery will lose some range compared to using the geared hub at 2000W.
You don't have to explain why you would want a full-suspension frame for the street, but if used for off-road, I highly recommend investigating mid drives.
Allex
100 MW
Motor is on the way, but we just have to be patient about the tests:
"let you know once we get around to the testing. As it is we're moving shops to a new location at the end of February so things will be pretty hectic here until probably march/april when we're all settled in and I'm not sure how much spare R&D time I'll have in that period. -Justin"
"let you know once we get around to the testing. As it is we're moving shops to a new location at the end of February so things will be pretty hectic here until probably march/april when we're all settled in and I'm not sure how much spare R&D time I'll have in that period. -Justin"
markz
100 TW
That makes me wonder about their move, my bet is further out from the core of Vancouver. More space, less rent comparable $/sqft.
Moving on up!
Moving on up!
__mike
100 mW
markz said:
Thanks. The 3T would be much too fast for my needs. I think you meant the 6T? This was my initial decision choice but I read into it too much comparing different winds and the 5T in this case having a little more copper fill and this being a better overall choice. I worked out the speed to be 45km/hr with the 6T based on what I read here which would have been o-k. This may have been the better choice for me and sticks with my experience with motor choice with electric plans / 8th scale buggies. I knew I wouldn't reach 60km/hr at the power level im running and estimated in the 55-60km/hr range.
cwah said:
Yes a mxus v2 3000w would make a little more torque /cheaper/can purchase from Sam D over east/4t wind would reach ~50 km/hr on par with the Mac/ he can install FF/ I bet the temp sensor works with the cav3. I thought it was more unnecessary sprung weight using a larger motor way under its potential but to be honest I don't notice the increased weight more than I thought I would. I Hit a few small knee height jumps yesterday and it was fine / kept nice and level.
HamsterPower said:
Not sure
spinningmagnets said:
Small repeatable jumps at the local bmx track landing accidentally with a little throttle I think were a bigger contributor to a damaged clutch than 2000w. Sounded like gears slipping. Your right the leaf is overkill at this power level but I couldn't find where to buy the new 30mm 9c Cassette apart from ebikes.ca (shipping is too much from Canada) which was what I was looking to buy. Power is ok atm, I can live with it / may increase amps when I can figure out how to get the em3ev program working. Cheers for the tips.
Bike is used for off road only /I have mountain biking & dirtbike background/ Lycra gear and bikes for the streets. When I initially looked into mid drive E kits there was nothing available for the BB size of the Giant Reign 2 years ago. I like the simplicity and silence of a hub and didn't want to 'clamp' big brackets to my frame. The frame is well protected and can be turned back for pedal power only duties easily. I do pedal a fair bit and didnt want to have to worry about crunching gears under power with a mid drive. The suspension doesn't work as well as it used too with a hub on the back but the bike jumps fine and still handles the rough stuff well. I keep tyre pressures low with a tubeless setup / rear shock set a little on the soft side and the rebound to its full setting to help a little with the extra sprung weight.
Mike
markz
100 TW
So you already had a battery pack, and you based your motor wind on that. Is that right?
__mike
100 mW
2nd ride with the leaf today at a more pleasant 25deg C. 18km / 45min / avg 19.6whhr of a mixture of trails/grass/paths/short steep loose sand hills. Happy I went through 5.4ah of the 6.6ah pack with the ~2000watt setting without having to wait around / ride slow for the motor to cool off / restrict amps via my 3 toggle switch compared to the MAC. When I arrived home I could hold my hand on any part of the motor permanently. After a few minutes the top felt a little hotter but i could leave my hand there. If ~60degrees?? from memory being a pain threshold I estimate 55-60degrees C on the external cover. Annoying I cant get the temp sensor to work for an internal temperature. Averaged similar Wh/hr with the MAC over this sort of terrain which is good.
The extra 2.5kg of rear end weight felt more noticeable today when jumping off waist height drop offs.
I can say with confidence the MAC10T climbs and pulls harder up to 35km/hr at ~2000watts but it will be interesting to see the leaf in the ebikes.ca simulator for a comparison as after this speed it really seems to come alive, maybe even pulls a little harder than the MAC. Anyone have any experience with the 6T?
Correct
The extra 2.5kg of rear end weight felt more noticeable today when jumping off waist height drop offs.
I can say with confidence the MAC10T climbs and pulls harder up to 35km/hr at ~2000watts but it will be interesting to see the leaf in the ebikes.ca simulator for a comparison as after this speed it really seems to come alive, maybe even pulls a little harder than the MAC. Anyone have any experience with the 6T?
markz said:
Correct
999zip999
100 TW
2,000 watts is at the mac's limit the muxus 3,000 can take 5,000 watts.
I think 72v 40amp is a starting point for the muxus 3,000.
I think 72v 40amp is a starting point for the muxus 3,000.
__mike
100 mW
neptronix said:Try 4000 watts peak... that is when the Leaf will blow the MAC away at any wattage..
This motor does surprisingly well, heat wise, and power wise over 2000W.
I've been happy with the leaf, has really grown on me. Keep it charged in case I finish work early lately
Apart from not getting a signal / 0v from the temp sensor output, dont know whats going on there. I'm enjoying not having to worry so much about over heating, breaking - well less parts to break, and only using it at 1/2 its full power potential. I won't be going back to a geared hub - they're brilliant but for lower power levels. I could pedal the Mac ~3-4km/hr faster on the flats, still happy with the way the Leaf pedals.I don't need 4kw but I bet it'll haul along. Have seen your youtube video. I may try ~2.5kw and FF down the track. I can't help but wonder if I would have been better off with the 6T with a little more lower speed torque per amp and maybe use a few less amps. If I bought the 6T i'd probably wish I had bought the 5T haha.
Cheers for the testing and to everyone else in this thread thats contributed.
Mike
cwah
100 MW
How do you know the number of pole count of a motor? I need that to set up my leaf motor 1000w with my kelly cobtroller
cwah
100 MW
I've counted 51 pole slots just below the bigger "teeth":
