Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

by cheeko » May 11 2020 6:33am

Hi all you lovely people.

I'm thinking downgrading my Mxus 3k no issue it's great and quick but I want to ride more without only motor help so thought leaf 35mm with 5 or 6. Less hassle with frame and brakes.

Now what are people recommendations
Current battery:- 20S7P 105amp
26 inch wheels.
Futr Beta frame (Stealth P7)

What's max amps I can run motor at also what is best wind, I will first upgrade phase wires also anyone using 13/14G spokes I'd rather not drill out another rim to fit 12G.

The leafmotor from leafbikes Called "black magic" comes with 3mm phase wires, between 8-9 gauge awg

Get your temperature sensor working and have thermal rollback. Read this thread where they were dumping 80 amps into it.
There were others dumping high amps into it but do the reading. My controller is limited to 40 amps, BMS is limited to 60 amps "20S7P". Have it limited to 36 amps for battery life. The motor will have a long life at 2600 watts, Luke did a test on the motor and stated the motor runs at its best at 2000w. But people do dump 4-7 kw for short burst but it gets hot.

I do a lot of peddling and like the low drag but most of the time use pas to set how hard I work at what ever speed I am running at the time. Ordered a 7T so my top speed is 31 mph 26". Use the motor simulator adjust "Custom Kv (rpm/V)"to figure out the speed you want. My trike will pull less amps and have higher top speed on flat ground than an upright.

This is from my notes:
Unloaded kv
16 * 4T 650RPM 13.54
13 * 5T 550RPM 11.45 "Grinn's motor simulator has the 5T loaded at 10.53 kv"
11 * 6T 450RPM 09.37
09 * 7T 350RPM 07.29 "rpm V Loaded 6.33 Kv - 397.4 rpm"
08 * 8T 250RPM 05.208
07 * 9T 150RPM 03.125
 
ZeroEm said:
The leafmotor from leafbikes Called "black magic" comes with 3mm phase wires, between 8-9 gauge awg
Which gauge converter are you using?

This didn't sound right, and when I poke around the web, I find that 3mm is close to (but not quite) 12awg, much smaller than 8-9awg (which would be closer to 6mm+ to 8mm+ (cross sectional area)). (If they were 3mm diameter, vs cross-sectional area, then this might be correct...but I don't think that's the case).

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.html
etc.


Or in metal supplies, like rods,
it'd be more like 11swg, where 8-9swg would be more like 4mm.
(seems like a completely different measuring system; I've never encountered it before, appears to be based by this site on diameter rather than cross-section)
https://www.metalsupplies.com/conversion-tables/
(while this site lists both, yet is still radically different from the awg system)
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/swg-to-mm.html



I also couldn't find any reference to "black magic" on any of their stuff, but I did find one in their blog called "Black Lightning". It didn't say how big the phase wires were, though, so I don't know if that's the one.
https://www.leafmotor.com/blog/category/brushless-motor/page/5/
which, while it has a number of links to their sales site in the text, does not actually link to the motor it talks about. It does list an item number LBM481KRN which the sales site has three listings for
https://www.leafbike.com/search.php?Keyword=LBM481KRN&imageField.x=52&imageField.y=15
but none of those list the phase wire size, either. :(
 
I stand corrected it's Black Lightning must have had Magic in my head.

by amberwolf » May 11 2020 10:31am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑May 11 2020 9:09am
The leafmotor from leafbikes Called "black magic" comes with 3mm phase wires, between 8-9 gauge awg
Which gauge converter are you using?

This didn't sound right, and when I poke around the web, I find that 3mm is close to (but not quite) 12awg, much smaller than 8-9awg (which would be closer to 6mm+ to 8mm+ (cross sectional area)). (If they were 3mm diameter, vs cross-sectional area, then this might be correct...but I don't think that's the case).

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg- ... d_731.html
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/awg-to-mm.html
etc.
in the engineeringtoolbox 3mm is what I used. Other can look it up. 12 awg is 2mm. I did not measure my wire when had the coating off it could be Cross Sectional Area 3.31 mm2 square with a 2mm Diameter not the 3mm they advertise would be 12 awg, shit it might be 14 awe. The motor is rated to run at 40 amps with a 40 amp controller. Sure your right they are selling a motor with 15-20 amp wire to run a 40 amp Black motor. They must have had 14 or 16 gauge wire before the upgrade.
 
FWIW, the (battery) amp rating of the controller hasn't anything to do with the phase wire size, directly. Indirectly the higher the battery amp rating, the higher the phase currents *can* be. Only a few controllers (like Kelly) rate their controllers based on phase amps, rather than battery amps.

The phase wire currents can be MUCH higher than the battery current. (it's just how brushless controllers and motors work; there are a number of threads if you're interested in the details).


When the webpage builders list the mm size as just mm (diameter), and not mm squared (area), I think they likely don't know how to show the "squared" on there, or they don't understand it. Or it just got lost along the way somewhere when the information was passed around from person to person before it got to the site, as someone didn't know what it meant or was confused, so left it out.

It could even be like the numerous ebike kit / bicycle sellers that use amps for everything, instead of separating amps and amp-hours. They don't understand it so they figure it will just confuse their buyers, instead of learning what it means so they can explain it and get people the right stuff for the right task. :/ (we've had a few here that flat out refused to use the correct terminology even when it was explained to them).



Most of the "best" bicycle-class (generally around 1kw or less, but even up to 2kw) hubmotors have 12awg at best, more commonly 14awg. So I would bet that none of the leafmotor stuff (at least not the ones discussed in this thread) has anything bigger than 12awg.

I find it funny that these companies use too thin a phase wire for some of the motors (given some of the advertised ratings/applications), yet they use too thick a spoke on the wheels. If they just reversed that, they'd be making a much better product. ;)




10awg doesn't fit thru the axle hole on this general class of motors--not three at once plus hall/etc wires and a jacket around them. The only way I've managed to fit that size or bigger is by using solid core magnet wire (out of a welder transformer), and either leaving out all the sensor wires, or using really small gauge with thin insulation, and stuffing them between the magnet wires (or using no jacket at all on the phase wires, which risks a short from chafing). The motor I'm still using like that, an MXUS3k (which is really more like a small scooter motor) had to have the axle modified to allow me to run one of the wires out one axle, and the other pair out the other axle, so that I could also run the sensor wires too, and still have an insulation jacket on each phase wire to avoid chafing thru the magnetwire enamel over time.

When you get to scooter and moped motors, you start seeing some that come with 10awg, even 8awg phase wires, but they also have massively larger axles (so the bigger hole in them is less of a structural compromise).
 
ZeroEm wrote: ↑May 11 2020 10:09am
The leafmotor from leafbikes Called "black magic" comes with 3mm phase wires, between 8-9 gauge awg
Which gauge converter are you using?

The term "Gauge" varies with materials. To my understanding, Tradition is from firearms making balls from a pound of lead. Sheet metal also was established early to correlate area rolled from a pound of the metal.

In precious wire (silver, copper and the like), gauges were based on the draw steps that could be made with drawing dies without breaking - damaging the wire. Steel and harder materials are different form the softer metals in exact dimensions accordingly. It is a mess. Best to stick to diameter or other physical dimensions when dealing with solid conductors IMO.
 
speedmd said:
It is a mess. Best to stick to diameter or other physical dimensions when dealing with solid conductors IMO.

Yes and no. In the same way that thousandths of an inch are a better and more intuitive increment of precision for manufacturing than any increment of millimeters, American wire gauge is a handier denomination than diameter for one-off engineering. For every difference of 2 [edit: difference of 3] in the gauge number, the approximate ratio of cross-sectional area is 2:1. 6 gauge is twice as chubby as 8 [edit: 9] gauge, which is twice as chubby as 10 [edit: 12] gauge. Easy, compared to working with diametral measurements.

I could be convinced to work with mm^2 instead of AWG, but nobody seems to do that.
 
the approximate ratio of cross-sectional area is 2:1

Yes, and if your into approximates, that is suitable. Unfortunately that only holds relatively consistently for part of the range. Fine multi Stranding, also makes it difficult to compare physically and the open metal wire gauges difficult to use. Your counting strands of a measured diameter to figure it out on a case by case. A mess. Never understood why anyone would spec cu foil as 8oz or 10oz when they can just specify .011, or .014" thick. One tells you nothing without a table or problematic calc, and the other tells you all you need to know.
 
Real 'muricans see metric as an evil communist plot

Actually if you are in NA really not much choice and AWG is fine.

Fine-stranded tinned boat cable is the standard for good DC wiring, so just use ABYC specs for ampacity and voltage drop

Blue Sea Circuit Wizard makes it easy
 
Balmorhea said:
I could be convinced to work with mm^2 instead of AWG, but nobody seems to do that.
Actually I think that's the measure most of the motor sellers I've looked at using "mm" actually mean, and some do use the correct term. (of course, most don't specify at all, but if they're "bragging"...)
 
speedmd said:
the approximate ratio of cross-sectional area is 2:1

Yes, and if your into approximates, that is suitable. Unfortunately that only holds relatively consistently for part of the range.

It’s consistent across the entire range I’m aware of. But to your point, now that I looked it up in a table, I find that the difference in gauge for a 2:1 cross-sectional area ratio is in fact 3, not 2. :oops:

And the 2:1 ratio is exact, not approximate.
 
It’s consistent across the entire range I’m aware of. But to your point, now that I looked it up in a table, I find that the difference in gauge for a 2:1 cross-sectional area ratio is in fact 3, not 2. :oops:

And the 2:1 ratio is exact, not approximate.

Yes the 3x rule works, but that leaves you pointing to odd ball, rarely used -available gauge sizes. Not sure how much value that adds to the conversions. I do not think I would ever remember that with any certainty if it was of little use. We are stuck with looking it up in most engineering apps as well as looking at the enclosure, insulation-plating, frequency characteristics of the exact wire. Not a simple setup. A simple-easy measurement would in contrast give you most all of the detail on a solid conductors dc current capacity.
 
Back to the topic!

I am planning to switch from a front Leaf 1500W hub to a rear, with lower kV winding. My question regards the durability of the threaded right side cover of the rear hub. Is breaking the side cover from pedaling related forces a concern with this motor, like it has been with others such as Nine Continent? I’m a large person and a lifelong cyclist, so my pedals aren’t just for show.

I expect that I’ll get the motor in any case, but if side cover breakage is a known problem I’ll order a couple of replacements at the same time.
 
Not having held one in my hands, I can't say for sure, but I don't imagine the manufacturing methods and designs are any different from any other motor, so I wouldn't expect them to be any different structurally. ;)

If you have access to billet aluminum of the right type and machining tools (lathe, etc) you could just copy the cover that comes on it, and it would very likely be much stronger than the original.

If you prefer steel threads I'm sure there's a way to integrate those without having to cast the cover around a premade module (common way of doing it), or bolting the flange/threads off a steel bicycle hub to the cover like I did for one motor.
 
I will probably do 8guage from the Axle as i did with My Mxus and it never gets hot,

Is anyone using this hub with 13/14 Spokes that would be interesting to know on 26inch Rim

Lucky for me i can easlily set the amps on controller on fly so will be easy to adjust, But probably wont be looking at pumping 100a into it.
 
cheeko said:
Is anyone using this hub with 13/14 Spokes that would be interesting to know on 26inch Rim

I use 13-14 gauge spokes on mine, with a 29 inch rim. The hub holes are so big that I fitted 2.5mm stainless steel washers under the spoke heads to take up the extra room and prevent pull-through. I laced all spokes outside the flanges for a little more bracing. I’ve had no problems with it, and the wheel hasn’t gone out of true.

If I could have found the right length, I’d have used 13-15-14 gauge triple butted spokes like DT Alpine III.
 
Davidcroatia said:
Did someone buy new leaf motor with cassette adapter ?

I have the cassette compatible 1500W version with a 34-11T 7 speed cassette to go with it. I need to build my battery pack before I can do any serious testing though. Waiting on a spot welder and a BMS to arrive. Going to build a 24S4P pack of A123 26650 cells, running a Phaserunner controller. It will be set to 96A battery and 96A phase current, roughly 77V nominal. Acceleration should be quite car-like...
 
Balmorhea » May 12 2020 5:34pm

Back to the topic!

I am planning to switch from a front Leaf 1500W hub to a rear, with lower kV winding. My question regards the durability of the threaded right side cover of the rear hub. Is breaking the side cover from pedaling related forces a concern with this motor, like it has been with others such as Nine Continent? I’m a large person and a lifelong cyclist, so my pedals aren’t just for show.

I expect that I’ll get the motor in any case, but if side cover breakage is a known problem I’ll order a couple of replacements at the same time.

In one year, 2500 miles/4000 km on a 2019 9 strand 7T leafmotor it is a 7 speed cassette not free wheel. laced into a 26" wheel with Grin's butted 13/14 "Sapim Strong Black" spokes. I am 260 lbs, trike 40 lbs, motor and battery 30 lbs, not going to add the controller, water, tools large mirrors and flag. Have it limited to 2600 watts 40 amp controller, 72v 25 ah battery, have not had any problems.
 
So no trouble with the smaller 12mm axle and torque arms? I'm about to buy a 1500w Leaf motor in a 20" wheel and I'm very tempted to go with the cassette version.
 
If you would be buying leaf motor kit 26 inch for wolt deliveries in a city, what would you you take motor ? I am considering cassete edition with 3mm wires , 6t wundings i thing for 40a 48v battery 24..5ah
 
Does anyone know how to change the LCD display from kmh to mph?

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Hickbeard said:
Does anyone know how to change the LCD display from kmh to mph?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk
So I've figured out (as in I watched a YouTube video) how to do it. Is there anywhere that says what the other settings are?

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Hickbeard said:
So I've figured out (as in I watched a YouTube video) how to do it. Is there anywhere that says what the other settings are?

What display are you using? It’s a little different for different versions.
 
LCD008HU
70adab316d68b376f1ef3e1d60a52f12.jpg


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