LightningRods mid drive kit

I'll be working on making premium driveline parts available a la carte this year. The difficult part is that I have them made in the US so they're not going to be China cheap. So far the Chinese are still focused on being crap merchants and moving a lot of low end product at the lowest possible price. They're really forcing everyone else to make better quality parts and to be satisfied with a smaller market share. A case in point would be a White Industries freewheel vs. a Dicta freewheel.

I do have solid freewheel delete hubs available. The ones I've made so far have been made of 6061 aluminum and have a 12mm bore. Boring these out to 15mm will be simple. If people feel that they need T303 stainless steel I can have my machinist make a run of them.

Stonezone tried the solid hub on his big block and decided to go back to a freewheel. When installed on the large pulley or sprocket of the primary drive that freewheel allows pedaling without cogging the motor. If you ride your mid drive like a motorcycle and never pedal without motor it might be the ticket for you.
 
Above 2000 watts the pawls don't last very long in the bottom bracket ACS freewheel. The ACS primary freewheel is fine because as I said it sees about 1/6 the torque that the BB freewheel sees.

So for a small block motor running 50V 40A the ACS freewheels are fine. For 72V small blocks and big blocks the White Industries HD is probably a good idea. I'm working on making the W-I fit the crank arm properly.
 
LightningRods said:
Above 2000 watts the pawls don't last very long in the bottom bracket ACS freewheel. The ACS primary freewheel is fine because as I said it sees about 1/6 the torque that the BB freewheel sees.

So for a small block motor running 50V 40A the ACS freewheels are fine. For 72V small blocks and big blocks the White Industries HD is probably a good idea. I'm working on making the W-I fit the crank arm properly.
Click to expand...

This is where I am confused. The pawls on the crank set only see power from the “human” . The power from the motor drives the chain directly. At what point are the pawls being over powered? If the freewheel was replaced with a simple bearing the motor power wouldn’t know the difference. The rider would find out in a hurry the moment he planned to help! Am I missing something?

On my bike I use a one way bearing mounted directly to the spindle instead of a conventional bike freewheel. After two years it began to slip. It didn’t affect the drive from the motor.
 
Joe T. i think you are right on that.
IMO the problem with the ACS is that the force from the Jackshaft-sprocket pulls it so hard, that its goin "out of line" and "wears out" in that way.
I had some ACS changed on our 5 Smallblock kits in the last year, because of they had become wobbly sometimes. That was mostly the case on the 219 chain side (BB-Freewheel), but also (much less) on the belt-Side (one per 3000km ?).
Now i have welded the Freewheels on the 3 DH-Bikes (running 2500-3000W), so they cant move anymore, but are more stable against the wobblying (Belt Side), and on the BB we all have the White Industries FW now.
Think have postet some pictures about that in my thread.

The one Bike i builded for a friend, running 1500W+Pedalpower still have the same ACSs since one year and still works fine!
im not big on pedaling, so that is the way to go for me.
 
Anyone know the specific differences (besides $30) between the Heavy Duty FW and the new Ultra Heavy Duty one (from SBP)?
 
stonezone said:
i've been crushing it with my BB almost daily and it keeps blowing my mind (and everyone who sees it)... the problem is, it's impossible to video when it's so damn fun to ride, kind of your fault Mike ;)

in all seriousness, video's coming i promise.
Click to expand...

I agree it's hard to stop to record...

You seem to be the only person I know of who has run this kit over 3kw and reported about at least. I know a while back you lost chain ring nuts. Did you change to an alternative? If so what? Do you loctite them and with what?

I am not having much luck with mine. They go loose & the heads twist near breaking off. I will replace and loctitie the one that I have replaced already fingers crossed they don't get mangled under load again. I think 4kw is too much for them.....
 
I just got the notice and tracking number, something is on its way,...
 
I hope I don't sound like I am complaining. I just like people knowing that the big block running at the power it is made for in particular requires a lot of love if you want her to love you back. My attitude has not changed. I love it because I don't know of another kit that can do what it can do, and know I am one of the few pushing electric bicycles to their logical limits. My advice is for the small block for anyone who is not into breaking and repairing things, unless they love power as much as I do and then that's what a hot rod is about. None of the F1s go into a race without a full vehicle check.

[youtube]9WvQ3pL9ekI[/youtube]

Ride on. :twisted:

ps, most the stuff I ride I could do at 1680w about 3 times slower and not break a thing. :wink:
 
cheekybloke said:
stonezone said:
Anyone know the specific differences (besides $30) between the Heavy Duty FW and the new Ultra Heavy Duty one (from SBP)?
Click to expand...

The UHD is a lot wider and has more threads on it.
Click to expand...

thanks eh
 
Would anyone take a stab in the dark at the temperature difference on windings to outside the casing of the motor where the fins are?

I have done a few thermo laser gun shots at the outside and it reads 5 degrees C hotter than the CA reading NTk.

So the hottest I have ever gotten is 50 C belting the c&^p out of it, highly doubt it is possibly to get higher with my current gearing however hard I rode the hardest terrain.

I just would presume inside is hotter than outside so there is a small error.

Is it safe to assume that like hub motors that I have more experience with that 100 C with a slow build up is very safe?

I am thinking to up my speed and ground clearance for logs and steps with a smaller 219 sprocket, I realise P cadence will get further away but at 30a there is not much this will not climb and my batteries can handle probably a burst of 50 to get through tough stuff if I was geared worse off for steep stuff and the motor seems to have a big leeway for more heat.

Correct me if I am wrong but any smaller than this (63t) would have nut to chain rub issues. And the other questions would be how important it is to have the out LR guard to protect leg/foot and guide the chain in and is alu strong enough?
talon_63_g_tr.jpg


Also in my opinion the smaller the chainring the less the freewheel wobble is pronounced.
 
Is it safe to assume that like hub motors that I have more experience with that 100 C with a slow build up is very safe?
Click to expand...

I would say yes, based on the collected information I've read about many builds. If you like to push limits, many others have gone higher than 100C with no damage, but...my personal rule of thumb has ended up being 200F / 93C. If you have a V3 Cycle Analyst (with temperature-triggered current limiting) I would recommend to cut the amps in half at 160F / 70C

One of the several distinct benefits of mid drive with gears is: when you down-shift, the motor RPMs stay up high, where they are cooler and happier, so...there is less heat to dissipate in the first place. Then, whatever heat is still being generated, these inrunners shed heat well as soon as it is generated.

In a hub motor, there is an air-gap all around the stator. Even though the sideplates are aluminum, stator-heat is shed slowly due to the air-gap. Justins published info on the Statorade (ferro fluid) dramatically improves the heat-shedding of common style direct drive hubmotors by creating a heat-path from the stator directly to the motor-shell. However, even adding Statorade, keeping a mid-drive motor in the correct gear will allow it to sing the RPM song that it is happy at.
 
Hi Mike, any updates on the availability of a LR bracket kit for the Cyclone 3000w motor? Thanks!
 
@ John Bozi
i had a 60T once, chain rubbing on nuts is a problem with those samll sizes, had to make new holes fo the screws... those m4 crews i used wasnt strong enough :roll: broke after 2Km apart.

not sure if there really is enough space on that 63T for a m6 nut + chain. maybe a tight fit


I never had that LR-Pant Guard...
20160103160344unkrv0zgds.jpg

Thats a foto of a friends pants, 4 of my pants also have those LR bite marks :mrgreen:
 
Spinning magnets unfortunately I didn't have any luck with gears. Even the smallest angle @ 3kw+ warps sprockets cassettes. This might be fine with under 3kw, but you won't be getting all the benefits of this (big block) motor which I believe can exceed 5kw.

Yes as you can see in the vid above I have CA and it limits temps. Even @ 5kw the motor was not the thing to worry about. It was my lyen beefed up traces 18 fett controller overheating.

At 3kw the controller is barely over ambient. So believe everything would run at half way around 4kw just right. A bit of warmth is ok.

After I looked at the thumbnail on my vid above I think I answered my own question. The primary 219 is 64t and the adapters look the same (not sure). And that would be the minimum clearance since I didn't think about the protruding tabs for the bolts.

foppel, thanks again, I also lost a shoe lace with the guard on. I ride with shorts and short socks too... more worried about the chain coming off or whether alu is strong enough.

Can you link me to a 64t red with holes in it that I can buy thanks?

With a change from 80t to 64t it's exactly a 20% increase in speed. I never knew my top speed anyway but guessed it around 35kmh so I should get over 40kmh, a few more cm of ground clearance but a 20% less hill climbing efficiency and battery range.

Should be more fun for a shorter period.
 

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  • identical fw adapters 63t.jpg
    identical fw adapters 63t.jpg
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Bit of raw pov, rather long but good sound quality since I used only a zip tie and a long piece of two sided velcro to tie go pro to my 6 pack :D

[youtube]CB1sh-eaF2M[/youtube]

Thanks Foppel, but that site is hard to use. I think international shipping is like 50 euro! will have to spray paint it red :lol:

For the big block I am running the stock stuff except final bicycle parts are 32t x 20t
 
John Bozi said:
stonezone said:
i've been crushing it with my BB almost daily and it keeps blowing my mind (and everyone who sees it)... the problem is, it's impossible to video when it's so damn fun to ride, kind of your fault Mike ;)

in all seriousness, video's coming i promise.
Click to expand...

I agree it's hard to stop to record...

You seem to be the only person I know of who has run this kit over 3kw and reported about at least. I know a while back you lost chain ring nuts. Did you change to an alternative? If so what? Do you loctite them and with what?

I am not having much luck with mine. They go loose & the heads twist near breaking off. I will replace and loctitie the one that I have replaced already fingers crossed they don't get mangled under load again. I think 4kw is too much for them.....
Click to expand...

maybe try something like this:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/race-face-narrow-wide-single-chainring/rp-prod109723
or grab some titanium chainring bolts?

I had a failure because I didn't loctite i guess...i'm also running 42/17 so it's not putting massive stress on that drive segment. I'm still playing around with the final chain and cogs. I put on a kmc 3/32 last night (same strength as the 1/8) and will report back. the 3/16 with double cog was the best yet except that it was so heavy the chain would bounce around too much (need extra length because chain growth)

Mike: Sean's wiring up his bike today, so if the rain stops (hasn't rained in 2 months) we should get some hammertime soon!
 
I think I could use a little advice.

I recklessly beat the crap out of my small block for nearly 1000 off-road miles now. I rode the motor to lock up at full throttle dozens of times, had thousands of carelessly hard starts, towed people up hills, and even think I may have gotten water in the motor more than once. So, my motor has been loosing power. It just doesn't pull nearly as hard anymore and torque loss seems to be accelerating. Yes, I've been very abusive.

Additionally, my BB/crank wobbles considerably and worst of all, the 219 gets looser and tighter as the motor turns. It's become so bad that it goes from being almost too tight, to being so loose, I fear it will jump off from chain bounce at high speeds. I have no idea of the cause beyond the kit chain ring somehow became oval. I'm not sure it would ware like that. In general, it sure seems as if something is about to break if not already broken.

I haven't kept up with this forum (too busy abusing my bike), but I've seen discussion about improved parts. My kit is about a year old now. Maybe it's time for some sort of a rebuild.

What should I do? What parts should I replace? Most of all, what do you think is causing my chain tension problems? This can't be an original problem.

Thanks,
Chris
 
eTrailster said:
I think I could use a little advice.

I recklessly beat the crap out of my small block for nearly 1000 off-road miles now. I rode the motor to lock up at full throttle dozens of times, had thousands of carelessly hard starts, towed people up hills, and even think I may have gotten water in the motor more than once. So, my motor has been loosing power. It just doesn't pull nearly as hard anymore and torque loss seems to be accelerating. Yes, I've been very abusive.

Additionally, my BB/crank wobbles considerably and worst of all, the 219 gets looser and tighter as the motor turns. It's become so bad that it goes from being almost too tight, to being so loose, I fear it will jump off from chain bounce at high speeds. I have no idea of the cause beyond the kit chain ring somehow became oval. I'm not sure it would ware like that. In general, it sure seems as if something is about to break if not already broken.

I haven't kept up with this forum (too busy abusing my bike), but I've seen discussion about improved parts. My kit is about a year old now. Maybe it's time for some sort of a rebuild.

What should I do? What parts should I replace? Most of all, what do you think is causing my chain tension problems? This can't be an original problem.

Thanks,
Chris
Click to expand...

Okay, My BB freewheel has failed. My bike will no longer ride and I need to contact Mike about purchasing parts.

Considering my motor now pulls at about 1/2 strength, I want to replace that as well. Is there anything else I should consider replacing so I don't experience additional failures and the misery of waiting for parts?

Anyone?

Mike, If you have any suggestions, I would certainly appreciate hearing from you either here or in pm. If I remember correctly, you mentioned re-engineered mounting/tension system, designed a chain tensioner, an upgraded jackshaft?, improved freewheels... Please help. I want NEED to rebuild and upgrade to any new and improved parts asap. I'm now on downtime.

Thanks
 
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