Motorino XPn Chinese ebike (scooter)

[mistercrash]

The Nissan Leaf modules are in the scooter. I knew it would be a tight fit but I didn't know it would be this tight. I had to ''massage'' a tiny portion of the frame to be able to slip the bottom stack of 5 modules. So tight that sadly I was not able to use the heating system I made for them.
There is no comparison between the power of these modules and what the 18650 Konions were giving me. I hope I never have to mess around with konions again.

There's a black plastic tub underneath the seat that is the storage compartment. I have to keep the top part of it as it holds the hinge for the seat and a couple of body panels screw into it. I got a little too happy trimming it and got rid of too much. I could've took my time and done a much better job. I have a new tub on order.

I went for a 32 km ride with the new Leafs, ran a couple errands, it was nice not to have range anxiety. There was a difference of 0.005V between the highest and lowest cell before the trip, the difference was 0.004V after the trip. Resting voltage was 81.6 before, 80.5 after. Under hard acceleration, the voltage sag was barely 3V. Awesome batteries.

 

[John in CR]

Motor looks good, though I personally never open a motor unless it's to make mods. I'm sure you're anxious to get it on the road, but if you don't already have a tire on it can you capture some easy measurements for inclusion in Mile's motor database? I assume you have a CA, so you can get rpm into, and what we need is no-load current at 2 different rpm. At WOT and full pack voltage note the voltage, rpm, and current drawn from the battery. Then using a cruise control, 3 speed switch, or a helper with a stead hand, get the no-load current at a lower rpm and note the rpm.

I'd suggest trying the no-load and WOT rpm with each set of halls, and use the one that has the lower no-load current (high rpm at WOT too). That's in case one has greater hall sensor placement than the other. I'm hoping you end up with a bit better numbers than on the factory's test report. That's running on a dyno, and at 1070rpm the windage of the tire and friction losses on the roller can distort the iron losses compared to a true no-load measurement. 477W just to spin the wheel at 1070rpm as shown in the test report is a bit disappointing. Subtract the output it gives credit for and that's still 421W, almost all iron core loses. To give you an idea, HubMonster, uses about 150W to spin at that rpm, which when combined with it's low resistance is why it's so efficient.

The other important and needed measurement is phase-to-phase resistance. That can be done at any time, but is easiest before you get everything wired up. Let me know if you need instructions.

Getting your motor into Miles' spreadsheet doesn't just help everyone else. It will be a huge help for you in deciding on controller settings, because you can see the expected heat and power output numbers for any operating condition.

John

 

[mistercrash]

I'll be glad to get the data you are talking about, but although I am indeed anxious to put this motor on my scooter, there are two things keeping me from doing it right now. Winter and money. It was my plan to have a powerful Spring/Summer/Autumn motor. And a weaker Winter motor. I still have to buy a 12 inch front rim, two new tires and a couple other things but the money for the project has dried up. The last project I have to tackle is loud alarms on my Cell-Logs as I already have the parts for that.
I have a CA but don't use it. The first time, water got into it and the right button stopped working. I bought a second CA and again because water got in it, the right button stopped working. Justin was nice enough and sent me a front panel for free. But after a while, I got the same problem again. The two CAs I had were water resistant but not waterproof. Plus it's a plug in CA that I don't know how to use with the Kelly controller, I think I would need to get the stand alone CA kit. More money. :| I'll ask Fany at Kelly Controllers if I can plug in a CA directly to the controller.

I could do the phase to phase resistance now, but I need to learn how to do it.

Ray

 

[John in CR]

to get rpm from the CA all you need it to connect the speed sense wire to one hall and the gnd and pack voltage. Set a wheel diameter and computer rpm from speed.

Here's how to measure phase resistance, which I copied from someone else.
You can measure your motor's DC resistance with a multimeter,
but not directly, because the value will be very low (~0.05 Ohms).
To get sufficient resolution you need to feed about 1 Amp into a
motor winding, while measuring the voltage across it. If the
current is exactly 1A then the resistance equals the voltage. If
the current is not exactly 1A then you can apply Ohm's Law
(Resistance=Volts/Amps).

The tricky bit is, how do you get a known current of about 1 Amp?
You will need a stable power supply (eg. 12V car battery) and a
high power resistor of the correct value (12 Ohms for a 12V supply).
If you can't get an appropriate resistor then you can use a light
bulb (eg. 10~15W auto bulb). To find out how much current the
resistor/bulb draws, connect it to the power supply and in series
with your multimeter set to its 10A range. Record the measured value.
Now switch the multimeter to its lowest voltage range (eg. 200mV)
and connect any two of the motor leads in series with the resistor/bulb.
Measure the voltage across the motor leads. For greatest accuracy the
multimeter probes should be placed directly onto the motor wires or
bullet plugs (otherwise you will also be measuring the resistance of
the connections!).

 

[mistercrash]

to get rpm from the CA all you need it to connect the speed sense wire to one hall and the gnd and pack voltage. Set a wheel diameter and computer rpm from speed.

That is the problem, I can't set anything in the CA with the front buttons not working. As for the other thing, I'll have to try to wrap my brain on what exactly I have to do. Now in my fifties, my brain is getting kind of rigid.

 

[amberwolf]

FWIW, it's really easy to put your own buttons on there--I've done it as a hack job, and at least one other person has replaced them with sealed pushbuttons, and sealed up the CA case, IIRC.

It's fairly easy to see which of the three pins on the flat connector is common, and then you just wire that to one side of each momentary switch you install. THen you wire the other side of each switch to the appropriate other pin.

In my case I just used a piece of PCB with two switches already on there, cut off the control panel of some old multifunction printer/fax/scanner thing, I think it was, that also already had some ribbon cable attached, IIRC. Anyway, it was easy. (though because I just taped it down to the front, as a temporary test that has now been there for years, :lol: then it's worked it's way loose and a wire broke off the back I need to resolder. )

 

[mistercrash]

I have instruction on how to plug in a CA to my controller, but I need a shunt, what do I use for a shunt? Look at my controller, is that a shunt that is already on the negative side of the controller?

Or can I use a shunt like this one from ebikes-ca.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/ca-accessories/shunts/shunt0-5.html

And can I bolt that shunt directly on my controller if the bolt pattern is the same.

Thanks
Ray

 

[John in CR]

I use the Ebikes.ca external shunt on my builds, but the .25mOhm high current version, which is actually cheaper. They are fairly big, so I doubt they'd bold directly on your controller like that. The option would be to take the cover off the controller, which may not be possible with the Kelly, but if so then you just solder in 2 small equal length and size wires, one on each side of the shunt to connect to the CA's current sense.

You wouldn't use that for measuring no-load current. Instead use your multi-meter. Just go slowly with the throttle to WOT, so you don't hit a current that could blow the fuse in your meter.

 

[mistercrash]

I finally got the external alarm to work with a Cell-Log. I also found out I have two Cell-Logs with busted alarm output. Wonder what happened there. With guidance from ''major'', I found out that the resistor needed to be 1 KΩ and 1 Watt. The alarms will be loud, I am certain to hear them while riding. But first I need two new Cell-Logs.
So that will be my BMS. Cell-Logs with LVC set at 3.6V and the controller's LVC set at 66V (3.3V per cell). If I ever hear the alarm it's time to ease on the throttle to bring it home. If the controller cuts power, it's time to push it home or call a tow truck.

I revised the drawing I made in an earlier post, hope it helps someone someday.

 

[mistercrash]

These leaf modules stay so balanced they are boring. Still waiting for Cell-Log 8Ms to come back in stock at HobbyKing to finish my LVC/HVC alarms.

 

[mistercrash]

It looks like I will be walking to work for the rest of the winter. My KLS7250D controller started giving me trouble a few weeks ago. I thought it might be my twist grip throttle that was defective as I was getting some erratic throttle control. I heard a loud POP when riding home from work and the controller sounds like it's shorting on the phases. It's not the motor or wires, it sound as if it's coming from the controller. I contacted Fany and after a couple emails trying to figure this out, he came to the conclusion that I should return the controller for inspection. I'm not very happy about that.

 

[diff_lock]

That sucks. Should always have a spare controller lying around. Set the connectors up for quick swapping.

So are you returning the controller? Future plans with controllers?

Or a spare E bike. My scooter is down too right now too. I turned my bicycle into an e bike. Used the same 1.8kwh batt from my scooter so the costs were minimal (hub motor + controller).

 

[mistercrash]

At $440 plus shipping, I can only afford one controller at a time. But yeah I could have a cheaper, less powerful controller as a backup. But Fany at Kelly Controls was very helpful and took back the old controller and sent me a brand new one with the new features and software. It's been running very well for a week but I can't get the regen and motor cutoff to work with the brake switches yet. The old controller used pin 1 to take a 12V signal from the brake switches to activate hard regen and cut power to the motor (pin 1 could also be used for motor temp, had to choose one or the other). As long as I was holding one of the brake levers, there was no power to the motor. The new controller now has pin 1 for the motor temp only and pin 25 for the 12V signal from the brake switches. But there"s no hard regen or motor cutoff.
Gonna have to sit down and make sure that the switches are sending 12V to pin 25, check for broken wire or bad connector.

 

[diff_lock]

em3ev has an 18fet for 160usd + shipping. Should pull 100 battery / 200 motor amps easy.

 

[mistercrash]

Update, I thought I would post a pic of my Cell-Log BMS. It seems to work well, I haven't heard the alarms yet, winter rides in Canada are short rides so no LVC alarms up to now. No HVC alarms either during charging so the cells stay well balanced.

 

[mistercrash]

After a few emails with Fany at kelly Controls, and after him discussing about my problem not having regen and motor cutoff on pin 25 with the engineers, they came to the conclusion that I should disable pin 2 which is the boost function. When the boost function is disabled on pin 2 then it serves as an variable regen if a 12V signal goes to it. It also cuts off the power to the motor. So I now have hard regen and motor cutoff activated by my brake switches. But I can't use the boost function which I was hoping to use this Spring with the 5KW motor. I am told by fany that pin 25 on my controller could be plugged in the wrong port and that he asked them to correct the mistake. I take it that this controller may not be the only one with this mistake.

Although Fany has been nothing but helpful and cooperative from the beginning, and I thank him for that, I'm afraid that I am two for two on less than perfect controllers from them. The first one failed and the replacement does not have all the features advertised. The warranty cost me over $100 CDN to ship the old controller back to China and custom fees on the new controller arriving from China.

This relationship with Kelly is coming to an end, it is a shame because when this KLS7250D works, it works very well but if this second controller fails, I will not contact Kelly, I will quietly go for a different brand.

 

[mistercrash]

I just got done installing that QS MOTORS 5KW hub paired with a 12 inch front wheel from a Motorino XPd (Honda Ruckus Chinese imitation). It was a lot of work. My scooter was not made for 12 inch wheels so I had to modify, fabricate a few things to make it work. Sadly I can't use the front worm gear for the speedometer. But it's ok since I have the speed on the CA I installed last week. I don't have the chain for the pedals either, the QS motor does not allow for a one way sprocket. So this thing is an absolute outlaw right now. I am going to clean it up, put new numbers in the controller software and CA, go for a short ride to get some numbers on the CA and post pics later.

 

[mistercrash]

I took a tiny 5 minute ride on a back road behind my house and gunned it going out, made a U-turn and gunned it coming back. Top speed is more than what I was hoping for. I was hoping for 80 km/h. Acceleration is very strong but also very smooth, I get to top speed in a bit more than 5 seconds. But that is counting the seconds in my head so it's not accurate. I got to find a way to register and insure this thing as a Low Speed Motorcycle so I can get the stupid pedals off. I also don't want to get caught by the police. 8) The voltage sag from the Leaf batteries are a lot more then before.

Here's the numbers from the CA. Top speed was verified by GPS.

 

[Noq]

Wow dude, how are you liking it now? Do you find that 12" wheels make a major difference, or did you mainly switch so as to fit the motor? What's the new range, and how long to fully charge? This is the most epic Motorino and you will turn all sorts of heads if you bring that guy around the shop.

 

[mistercrash]

I love it, it's fast and the 12'' wheels track better at high speeds. But as I found out today from two different Service Ontario outlets, it can never be registered as a motorcycle because it was never a motorcycle in the first place. No proof of ownership. So I had a lot of fun building this cool scooter that can't get out of my driveway without risking getting a crap load of traffic tickets. The only solution I can think of is going back to the 500W motor and ride it as what it is, an e-bike. Or get a Yamaha Vino 125cc that is good for the scrap yard but has registration with it and get the VIN from it to replace the one on my chassis. Which is not a VIN actually, it's just a serial number

 

[mistercrash]

Like I said before, with the new 12 inch front wheel. I could not use the worm gear for the original speedometer. But with the CA, I did not need that speedometer or the original voltmeter either. So I went from this:

And by making a new bracket ended up to this:

Presently looking for a 2004 to 2009 Yamaha Vino YJ125S to convert it to electric with the stuff I have on the Motorino XPn so that it can be licensed and insured as a Limited Speed Motorcycle. I hope to make it happen, and work on this project with my son.

 

[Noq]

Hey mistercrash! Just wondering about some stats on your Leaf batteries.

So you have two packs wired in parallel of 5 modules each? A total of ten packs? What's the total amp-hour rating on this pack?

5 modules alone will create about 80V? The second pack will double your total range, is that right? (Sorry, newbie question.)

Was it a serious challenge to fit the first pack in the bike? Not the one you had to put in your underseat storage, but the other one that went where batteries normally go—would you say the modifications were minor, or major to get that one to fit?

I'm thinking of doing what you did and going for a 5-pack of Leaf modules and keeping my underseat storage for now. Maybe in the future, if I have range anxiety, I'll buy another 5 to put in parallel. Currently, my 26aH 60V prismatic-cell pack gives me a range of about 50KM. So as long as I can get that out of a 5-pack of Leaf modules, I'd be happy. My guess is the 5-pack of Leaf modules would give me more than 50KM range.

 

[mistercrash]

If you want 60V, you need 8 Leaf modules, not 5. Have you researched this at least a little? Each Leaf module has four cells, connected in 2S2P. That is 7.4V nominal per module. Each module can have 60ah to 64ah depending on the year the car was manufactured. Forget about the under seat storage, you will loose most of it. I don't know what you will need to do to get them in, your scooter is newer than mine and things may be done differently on it.

 

[Noq]

Hi mistercrash, please forgive my ignorance. I was planning on wiring up five modules in a 10S1P configuration to yield ~74V and ~30Ah instead of ~60Ah but I think for stability's sake, it's better to keep the batteries stock since I can afford the room and use the power. I understand you can't advise on difficulty of the fit since we're on different years of the same model, and things may have changed.

Perhaps what you can advise is how best to charge these beasts? Most chargers in this range are either 72V or 96V, and we want something unusually specific in the middle, maybe with manual adjustment and 10-20A. I'm about to write Meanwell to ask if they offer anything.

Also, how was duty? The duty calculator app says I should be paying $500, and excuse my bluntness but F that, haha. I'm getting it from a border point and am fixing to be tricky with how I declare.

 

[mistercrash]

Hi mistercrash, please forgive my ignorance. I was planning on wiring up five modules in a 10S1P configuration to yield ~74V and ~30Ah instead of ~60Ah

Oh I see. I think that these Leaf modules are put together very well, it is a shame to hack them up to separate them. I would go as far as taking the aluminum covers off to sandwich the cells together and save on total volume and weight but I would stop there and keep the awesome connections these things have.

I got myself a US address with Kinek. I had the batteries shipped to my Kinek address near the border for $195 USD instead of over $400 USD to have them shipped to my door, and that's before paying taxes and customs. I drove an hour to get there to pick them up, the modules were shipped in two boxes so the Kinek fee at my US address is $20 USD per package so I paid that, then it's back to the border and they make you park at the building to go declare what's in the packages and I had to pay $220 CDN in custom fees and taxes and I was off to get back home with my batteries.