My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

[kson]

I'm a little confused between the EX and AM1000 now.
They are both dual suspension bikes and similar prices, has anyone from Frey outlined what is different / improved on the EX apart from the dual battery system? The two bikes seem very similar in terms of feature set.

 

[Simonten]

I asked about this on a youtube Chanel regarding the EX and the Am1000. hrd cr was kind enough to reply he had been on the frey bike exchange tour. Below is a video with him jumping the the EX

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h7wMU3hbic&t=93s[/youtube]

Below were his comments on the EX

I played around for a few days with the M600, AM1000, and the EX and I would recommend the EX. The EX combines integrated looks like the M600, but still with the power the AM1000 delivers (ultra motor). I did not notice the extra weight, on the contrary, gravity-assisted it was easier to gain speed. On the downhill course I rode the bike without a chain without any problems. If you are physically fit to do jumps, then the extra weight of the EX should be no problem for you to handle.

I've been having arguments back and forth about weight with several people. My take is, and I answered the same on your other question, if you are fit enough to do jumps, bunny hops, etc, then the added weight is not a problem. I jumped both with and without the additional battery and honestly, I didn't notice the extra 4 kg. The speed these bikes can assist you up to will always be enough to clear the jumps.

Comparing the two motors, in my opinion, the M600 motor lacked the power to bring me up extreme hills, while the ultra motor can outperform me when it comes to climbing. Basically, I fall on my back before I notice the EX/AM runs out of juice (see for instance my climbing stairs video). The one major benefit of the EX is that, while it weighs in at 30kg or more with two batteries, it does always assist you (up to 60kmh and beyond).

 

[formula101]

I'm a little confused between the EX and AM1000 now.
They are both dual suspension bikes and similar prices, has anyone from Frey outlined what is different / improved on the EX apart from the dual battery system? The two bikes seem very similar in terms of feature set.

There are small differences in frame geometry, but the main difference is that the EX has 180/160 travel vs 160/160 travel for the AM. The EX gives you the option of marathon rides with two batteries and near DH level travel. The EX is also nearly $400 more in stock configuration before extras like a second battery. These bikes are a cheat code as long travel bikes usually don't pedal well, but with 1500 watts peak and 160nm of torque, the old rules don't apply anymore. You can have the best of both worlds: max power and max travel.

Both offer excellent value at their respective price points, but prices on competing bikes from traditional manufacturers are dropping, and offer far "better" geometry (i.e., modern geometry). For example, the frey bikes have 473 mm chainstays whereas the specialized kenevo have 443 mm chainstays. The frey bikes, and almost all emtb's from direct to consumer brands have ridiculously long chainstays by modern standards.

Then again, the big brands will never offer a motor like the bafang ultra on their bikes. So you have to choose between the latest geometry or the most powerful motor.

 

[Hardcore]

With 1.5kW and 160Nm, give me the long chainstay as I´ll be climbing steeper stuff than ever.

 

[cscscs]

Should I order a spare part with the bike and if so can you point to which part in a photo?

Hopefully you won't need to replace the primary gear, but if you do - here is a great source for that part https://wattwagons.com/collections/accessories/products/bafang-ultra-primary-gear
Pushkar at wattwagons is great to work with and I was able to get this part quickly. I'm nervous about getting critical parts in the future so I did order an extra primary gear (also spare circlips for the crank shaft).

 

[cscscs]

including converting from hardtail to full-sus and shorter cranks (152mm). Both of these changes contributed to virtually eliminating crank strikes and I am now convinced that this was the root cause for the clutch failures. The stock Bafang cranks on the G510 are 175mm and include almost 20mm of extra material outboard of the pedal spindle bore

Thanks for the feeback- I see several people suggesting the Miranda Delta0 150mm crank so I'm putting that on as soon as I get my bike

From what I have seen, the shorter cranks (152, 160) are hard to find and not currently available from Miranda. I wanted to see if I could find them again in case I needed a replacement and after a lot of searching the following link is the only source I could find: http://www.flidistribution.co.uk/miranda-delta-isis-cranks-170mm
The link says 170mm but on the page you can select 152 or 160 - and it has the correct Q16 factor. They are made for KTM just like the ones I originally ordered. You'll have to actually place the order to confirm availability - if you want these I would suggest you don't wait as who knows how much longer they will be available.

Update - just for the heck of it I checked Miranda and it looks like the delta cranks are in-stock in all lengths for Q16 (even a 150mm option!) - again you would have to actually place the order to confirm but if true that is great news to me in case I need to replace a crank (probably can only order as a set and they're not cheap but also not too bad and as I have said previously without question IMO the best upgrade I have made)
https://mirandabikeparts.com/en/shop/e-bike/delta/
Let us know if you place the order and are able to confirm availability

 

[jeron]

Update - just for the heck of it I checked Miranda and it looks like the delta cranks are in-stock in all lengths for Q16 (even a 150mm option!) - again you would have to actually place the order to confirm but if true that is great news to me in case I need to replace a crank (probably can only order as a set and there not cheap but also not too bad and as I have said previously without question IMO the best upgrade I have made)
https://mirandabikeparts.com/en/shop/e-bike/delta/
Let us know if you place the order and are able to confirm availability

Do i we need the isis interface? I want to order them

edit: isis it it, now stupid question: i need 2 quantities i guess, it is not a pack of 2

 

[Tjeska]

There are 2 cranks in one pack.

I have the 150mm ones here, isis interface it is.

 

[jeron]

There are 2 cranks in one pack.

I have the 150mm ones here, isis interface it is.

It's 20 dollar for the shipment to Belgium. That's just stupid and god know how much import duty...

 

[Tjeska]

There are 2 cranks in one pack.

I have the 150mm ones here, isis interface it is.

It's 20 dollar for the shipment to Belgium. That's just stupid and god know how much import duty...

I payed no import duty on mine and i'm also from Belgium.

 

[Tjeska]

So today, finally I got a message that my matt black Frey AM1000 high end would be delivered.

After ordering it on 2019-08-14, I was getting a little nervous about the whole "lets order a full bike from China" thing.
So after some delay's from Frey (a month), because i wanted a EX-1 drivetrain & Lyric fork, and the whole holiday season delay's I would finally ride my new bike today

Well at least not today, got big Frey box delivered with a Blue AM1000 with luggage rack inside
Something went probably wrong when the bikes entered Europe true Poland, cause thats when the UPS shipping label was created.

Who ordered a Blue Frey AM1000 with a luggage rack in Europe? :lol:
I just peeked in the box, it was my wife that opened the box and took a pic, to ask me "I tought you ordered a matt black one?"
Disappointed, when i was driving home from work earlier after getting the message that it arrived.

So hopefully I will get my bike soon, Grace already knows about the whole situation and I trust them to handle it like they should.

To be continued...

/Edit: This is not a "shame" post, just a heads up in case a forum member would receive my bike so we could sort it out.

 

[Tessleaar]

So today, finally I got a message that my matt black Frey AM1000 high end would be delivered.

After ordering it on 2019-08-14, I was getting a little nervous about the whole "lets order a full bike from China" thing.
So after some delay's from Frey (a month), because i wanted a EX-1 drivetrain & Lyric fork, and the whole holiday season delay's I would finally ride my new bike today

Well at least not today, got big Frey box delivered with a Blue AM1000 with luggage rack inside
Something went probably wrong when the bikes entered Europe true Poland, cause thats when the UPS shipping label was created.

Who ordered a Blue Frey AM1000 with a luggage rack in Europe? :lol:
I just peeked in the box, it was my wife that opened the box and took a pic, to ask me "I tought you ordered a matt black one?"
Disappointed, when i was driving home from work earlier after getting the message that it arrived.

So hopefully I will get my bike soon, Grace already knows about the whole situation and I trust them to handle it like they should.

To be continued...

/Edit: This is not a "shame" post, just a heads up in case a forum member would receive my bike so we could sort it out.

He Tjeska,

I think I got your bike delivered, I ordered a Blue XL size one and I got a black one !
I send Grace a mail that something is gone wrong with the shipping

 

[Tessleaar]

Tjeska,

Grace wil give you my phone number we can arrange something .
I live in Holland and work not far from the Belgian border. Contact me .

 

[Tjeska]

Hi, I did send you a Pm and a WhatsApp message. 8)

 

[Sinbord1981]

:thumb:

 

[Pauldugie]

I just ordered my first e-bike, an AM1000 on January 15th. I ordered mine in matte black without decals, but after seeing Simon’s unboxing of a glossy black one with yellow lettering, I’m very envious.
I learned about Frey when I watched Micah Toll’s review of the Frey CC model on Electrek in my Flipboard app. When I visited the Frey website I found the AM1000. an internet search of the AM1000 led me to this forum. This thread is over 2 years old and I’ve learned so much about these bikes from your comments that I hope the thread continues as a resource for the foreseeable future.

I know Frey monitors this site and takes your concerns seriously. It’s comforting to know that reasonable complaints are handled appropriately and questions are answered promptly. It’s definitely a risk ordering my bike from a company, that to my knowledge, has no presence in the United States, but I’m confident that I’m buying a really good bike at a very reasonable price and that problems will be resolved fairly.

I’m getting the programming cable and control configuration software. I’m amazed that we have the ability to change so many variables. Has anyone found what they consider optimal settings?

I ordered lights, rear rack, and fenders for touring and a post dropper for aggressive downhill riding. I’m buying a better bike than I need, but even with every option, I’m paying far less than I would for a class 1 bike from Trek or Specialized although the shipping costs do cut into the savings.

My bike won’t be assembled until after the Spring Festival and I’m not expecting it to arrive here in upstate New York until the middle of March at the earliest. In the meantime please continue to post your thoughts on this bike. I really appreciate the expertise that is shared here and hope to share my own views when the bike finally arrives.

 

[formula101]

In defense of more mainstream, or established bicycle companies, there are certain design advantages which for whatever reason, companies like frey have been slow to adopt. This includes steeper seat angles. Full suspension bikes sag into their travel, so a steeper seat angle is imperative compared to a hardtail. The bicycle industry is moving towards 77* sta's now. Also, hta's are getting slacker each year, offering more stability at higher speeds, with 65* considered to be 'average' and slacker still for enduro and dh bikes. Third, chainstay lengths are settling in around 43 to 45 cm for full suspension bikes, whereas frey goes with 48 cm chainstays.

Does any of this matter? In particular, will the bikes ride any worse for lack of the latest in frame geometry? All I know is that frey bike owners seem to love their bikes and they can be ridden as aggressively as any other brand.

The question is, would frey bikes be even better still if they adopted the latest geometry?

 

[guel135]

after being in the riding part of the industry for many years. And there is a moment that you are not willing to have the last of the last every year. And if you look what they develop and what the wanted to sell in the past years many of these times it is only putting new things on the market to generate a need of buying a new product.
Look to the model wheel size 26 then 29, then 27,5 , then 27.5 plus and now again 29... But next year will probably be 29.72 inches the trend to go and you cannot go in the trail you love with your old only 29 bike.

And I am not in not buying new things style. For example, now I think will buy my road bike with disc and electronic shifting because I feel could be different from my old super racing carbon fiber already 11 years old 7kg road bike (specialized tarmac pro) than it is not stiff like the new ones. But it is so comfortable like the new endurance bikes.

 

[mewanderinghome]

Personally I prefer the 17.5AH battery as the bike is already heavy and the range on the 17.5 is already plenty - also the 21 will protrude - I even removed the handle from mine as it was irritating my knee as it also protrudes).

I read this whole thread, and remember someone else also commenting that the 52v and 48v21ah batteries protrude further from the frame than the 48v17.4ah battery. However, Grace is telling me the battery cases are all the same. Can someone confirm this? I was planning on getting the 48v17.4ah battery because it doesn't protrude, should weigh less, should have enough capacity for me, and saves $130. But if they all protrude on the left, then I might pay the $130 extra for the 52v. I would also be very interested to learn how much the different batteries weigh if someone with each of the 3 battery sizes can "weigh in" on this?

 

[mewanderinghome]

Next Question TL;DR: Which display to get? Eggrider, Cycle Analyst, or Bafang C240, 500c, or SW102?

I don't like the large vertical display that ships with the AM1000 (which seems likely to be damaged if I endo the bike...which I freely admit has happened more than once before), so I'm looking at other options.

I like the Eggrider (https://eggbikes.com/eggrider) due to its small form factor and integrated controls mounting next to the left grip. I don't think I'll ever need it's dual-mode functionality (limiting speed on road, if you're concerned about being pulled over by police). I guess it's also a tiny plus that it can be paired to a mobile app if I wanted to use my phone as a larger display, but I don't foresee riding with my phone on the bars for the same crash reasons. It doesn't seem like pairing it to your phone does anything additional, like allow you to answer calls (a small speakerphone would be awesome, or even just some indication that your phone has received a text or call), nor even navigate which the Bafang 750c does (but I can't see ever needing navigation). I don't love that the Eggrider also has a vertical orientation that protrudes from the top/front of the bar and is therefore still prone to damage in a crash, but it is considerably smaller than the stock Bafang, and with it closer to the end of the bars, it's protected a bit by brake levers in front. And I could install bar ends angled up a bit to provide some protection if the bike flips over (bar ends angled up also being useful to act as a stand when flipping the bike over for service).

The Cycle Analyst (https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html) seems considerably larger than the Eggrider and like the Bafang requires separate buttons near the grip for power assist, but it appears slightly smaller than the stock Bafang and is at least horizontal, not protruding from the front of the bike. Perhaps it could be mounted directly behind the bar, protecting it well? It also seems to offer the most available data and control of the displays I'm considering. I'm by no means an expert in e-bikes, so a couple questions with this one:
1) Would it be relatively easy (or even possible) to use the CA with the AM1000? It appears I'd have to reroute the torque, cadence, and speed sensors from the motor controller to the CA display, and I'd like to add a temperature sensor so the CA can reduce power to the motor when it senses too much heat. Not sure how easy this would be to do..?
2) If I'm understanding it correctly, the CA would then basically override most of the settings of the Bafang controller, sending only essentially a throttle input to the Bafang controller..? For those of you with programming experience with the Bafang controller, do you see enough advantages in the seemingly infinitely-variable CA over the Bafang controller, to choose the CA if I want an alternate display? Or do you think the CA's capabilities aren't that necessary considering the programming capabilities of the Bafang? Or maybe you even think the Bafang programming would be superior?

The final idea is to get a smaller Bafang display that's compatible with the Ultra motor. I think my favorite would be the C240 (https://www.bafang-e.com/oem-area/components/component/hmi/dp-c240can/) that Frey ships with their M600 bike. Frey says it's not compatible with the Ultra, but goes on to add that each motor comes with an associated display...making me wonder if it might actually work with the Ultra but they can't/don't want to separate a C240 from the M600 motor. I can't find the C240 for sale separately anywhere anyway. But if anyone here knows if it could be made compatible and if so where I could get it, please let me know. I love that this C240 mounts behind the bar, just to the right of the stem, so it is well protected and discreet. I rode an e-bike with I believe a Shimano steps motor, and it had a similar display location & size and was awesome. This would probably be my leading candidate if it works and I can get it.

Apparently the Bafang 500c is compatible (https://electricbike-blog.com/2018/11/30/500c-bafang-display-the-mini-me-of-ebike-displays/), which is smaller than the CA, larger than the Eggrider but also has integrated controls, and this one is horizontal. This has haptic feedback which I think would be a nice little plus. Would probably still need bar ends to help protect it, and this display being larger I'm not sure they would protect it as well.

Bafang also has a SW102 display (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MW261M8/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_7?smid=AF0FBM1E362GS&th=1) which is basically the same form factor as the Eggrider for half the cost, but I haven't been able to find out if it would work with the Ultra. Anyone know?

What are your thoughts?

 

[barbarossa]

Personally I prefer the 17.5AH battery as the bike is already heavy and the range on the 17.5 is already plenty - also the 21 will protrude - I even removed the handle from mine as it was irritating my knee as it also protrudes).

I read this whole thread, and remember someone else also commenting that the 52v and 48v21ah batteries protrude further from the frame than the 48v17.4ah battery. However, Grace is telling me the battery cases are all the same. Can someone confirm this? I was planning on getting the 48v17.4ah battery because it doesn't protrude, should weigh less, should have enough capacity for me, and saves $130. But if they all protrude on the left, then I might pay the $130 extra for the 52v. I would also be very interested to learn how much the different batteries weigh if someone with each of the 3 battery sizes can "weigh in" on this?

I was always thinking that the battery case of Frey am1000 should always be a Reention Dorado Max 505mm with max 80 cells. there are 2 Dorado Max versions but the smaller version will not physically match i think.
-later edited/added: there is also a 505mm Dorado Plus version that might also match the Frey original mount, have a look at my later post…-

anyways 48v, 21ah = 13s6p = 78 cells and 17.5ah = 13s5p = 65 cells. 52v = 14s5p = 70 cells. One cell is about 46 gramms. so you can do the math.

build of the original battery (i have the 48v 13s6p) is ok, charger is also ok.
but of course all the current of the 48v battery is going through 2 nickel strips only (i took that picture from a post before):


but if you wanna have something better, regarding higher current and less voltage drop i recommend building your own 15s or 14s battery with a good smart bms for example Speedict Neptune 15 (the original bms for my 13s battery was 14s BMS with one shorted balance wire - that procedure is normal) or perhaps you know someone who builds packs. perhaps you can order it with an empty battery case.
strange that a benefit of the 48v battery should be the 13s bms which is in fact a 14s bms which is even prepared for 15s counting the solder points (was posted some posts before)


first i have built a 15s5p with 75x LG HG2 cells. nice setup and low voltage drop with copper/nickel strip sandwich as serial connections. i only charge up to 61.5v for more cycles - but i have changed the caps to 80v so i could also charge to 63v.
at 60amps you have really fun…


now i build a 19s4p battery with Sony VTC6 cells… original Bafang Ultra FETs should be 85v/120a with around 6-8 mOhm RDS(on) - only the low voltage section is a problem (needs an TVS Diode, no error above 63v from controller but i think that the eggrider display might become a problem - although it works above 63v) and the 63v caps have to be changed to 80v or 100v.
thats how the naked pack looks like, there are 5 modules with room for 16 cells each:

 

[Tjeska]

Next Question TL;DR: Which display to get? Eggrider, Cycle Analyst, or Bafang C240, 500c, or SW102?

I don't like the large vertical display that ships with the AM1000 (which seems likely to be damaged if I endo the bike...which I freely admit has happened more than once before), so I'm looking at other options.

What are your thoughts?

I also don't like the large display, to much on the handlebar that way.

Bought a 500C and really like it, small, color, intuitive to use, and looks much much better.

 

[amberwolf]

Next Question TL;DR: Which display to get? Eggrider, Cycle Analyst, or Bafang C240, 500c, or SW102?

it appears you may already realize this, but the cycle analyst is not a display for your controller. it is a separate ev computer that (depending on version and how you wire the whole system with it) can do a lot of things, but it cannot talk to your controller, nor display any information from it. so as you note, if used to it's maximum ability, you'd wire everything thru it so it can send throttle to the ocntroller, and then you would set the controller up for it's maximum possible response to throttle, max power, etc., so the ca can instead do all the limiting.

note that the ca has one limitation that for me is severe: it cannot respond to any torque sensor readings until the cranks are moving at 50rpm or more***. so if you need the torque response to get started (like i do) from a stop, you'd need something else that does. if the existing controller can already do this, then you should stick with that if you need it. (you *can* build simple electronics external to the ca that fool it into thinking the pedals are already moving fast enough, if you want/need other features of the ca, some of which are quite useful in some systems / situations).

***the wording given to me was that it "assumes" 50rpm as soon as pedalling is detected...but i *think* it actually simply doesn't respond until at least 50rpm.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=1384020


if you are looking for something to be able to change your controller's settings, you must get one that is specifically compatible with your controller. i don't know which one that is. if you don't, it may not be able to display some or any of the info the controller sends it, and it may not be able to send any settings to the controller.

 

[cscscs]

I read this whole thread, and remember someone else also commenting that the 52v and 48v21ah batteries protrude further from the frame than the 48v17.4ah battery. However, Grace is telling me the battery cases are all the same. Can someone confirm this? I was planning on getting the 48v17.4ah battery because it doesn't protrude, should weigh less, should have enough capacity for me, and saves $130. But if they all protrude on the left, then I might pay the $130 extra for the 52v. I would also be very interested to learn how much the different batteries weigh if someone with each of the 3 battery sizes can "weigh in" on this?

Maybe the 52v case has been redesigned to be taller instead of wider??? But if you look closely in the unboxing video just a few posts ago you can see the extra width of the battery extending outboard of the frame on the left side.

 

[cscscs]

Next Question TL;DR: Which display to get? Eggrider, Cycle Analyst, or Bafang C240, 500c, or SW102?

What are your thoughts?

I swapped out the stock display (DP C18.UART) for the 500C and like it much better. I found the C18 display obscenely large and vulnerable and the assist buttons were too sensitive and too close together (or otherwise indistinguishable) so I often increased assist when I meant to decrease and vise versa or simply changed assist unintentionally. The 500C is much better in that regard but the buttons are still somewhat indistinguishable (meaning that when focused on the trail, I can't instantly find the correct button). I ended up gluing a small half round rubber button onto the upper button which makes a nice index for my thumb and fixed that issue. I would prefer a form factor like the C240 where the assist selector takes up minimal width real estate on the bar (to make more room for the dropper lever and throttle) and also like the minimalist display that mounts downwind of the bar instead of on top. That said, I don't think the C240 is compatible as it is different comm protocol than the DP C18 (CAN vs UART), but I have made an inquiry with someone who can find out for sure and should know in a couple of days - if it is compatible I would definitely be interested.