My price / benefit comparisons of lipo vs lifepo4

[ebikedelight]

I would have to agree on aaronski on this.

When I brought 3 lipo packs from hobbyking it was within my budget and later when I could I brought another 3 and I will be purchasing 3 more soon. To me personally I feel they were cheap to buy because you can spread the cost to build them up and If one pack goes bad or more it can be replaced cheaply and quickly.

For what lipos are I think there a good price.

I wasnt trying to insinuate that lipos were bad ...but from my research , it did not seem that lipos offered a great savings of money, when comparing to lifepo4 in regards to purchasing larger premade packs in the 48 volt / 20 a/h ranges.

I came very close to purchasing lipos this time around, for my current ebike build , but after looking at prices and the more sensitive nature of lipos in reagrds to dischargin them, charging them, storing them for periods of time, etc ...lifepo4 still seemed like a all around better option for my needs and in price comparisons . This is also considering that the lifepo4 option often comes standard with a BMS built in for safety and longetivity of the lifepo4, and it also comes with a charger unit.

I used to use lipo all the time when I ran RC planes , but that was using smaller voltages around 2-3 c and capacitys under 4 amps .

I almost bought 4 of the hobbyking , 6s multistar lipos in 16,000 mahs, this time around , but after reading some of the negative reviews, and looking at the total cost , with shipping, it just did not seem like it offered a more substantial value or performance option over the standard 48 volt, 20 ah lifepo4 battery that Ive used for years on my other ebikes.

 

[MrDude_1]

That's because the multistage are low c lipo intended to extend flight times of multirotor rc helicopters. Thy are not the cheap deal lipo, nor are they the high power lipo. Stop looking at them for comparing lipo.

 

[ebikedelight]

That's because the multistage are low c lipo intended to extend flight times of multirotor rc helicopters. Thy are not the cheap deal lipo, nor are they the high power lipo. Stop looking at them for comparing lipo.

If you can give us a link,. to a comparable lipo with similar stats as the $390 lifepo4 battery I provided , at a similar price point, please do .

All im saying is I spent weeks comparing prices and I was unable to find any type of lipo packs, that offered a substantial price savings when compared to 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 battery packs , which also come with a BMS unit and charger for $390 shipped.... keeping in mind, that if a person did not want or need the charger BMS unit that comes with the $390 lifepo4 battery, they could easily sell both of those items on ebay for about $50....further bringing the price of the $390 lifepo4, even lower.

There are a few reviews on hobbyking, for the multi-star - 6s - 16000 mah lipo packs....and those reviews arent good.

 

[dnmun]

the ebay ad referenced a Vpower pack. you shoulda bot the pouch type pack from sun-thing28 guy or hunk801 and you would have a much better battery for the same money.

we do have a lot of experience helping people repair the Vpower packs though so that will help.

 

[ebikedelight]

the ebay ad referenced a Vpower pack. you shoulda bot the pouch type pack from sun-thing28 guy or hunk801 and you would have a much better battery for the same money.

we do have a lot of experience helping people repair the Vpower packs though so that will help.

could you please provide a current link which shows those 2 vendors are selling a 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 pack, with BM,S and charger for $390 shipped ?

What type of problems seem to happen with these V power lifepo4 packs ?

 

[dnmun]

usually it is a shorted anode paralleling strap to the case when the pack is dropped on the corner or some pressure wears through whatever insulation is between the paralleling nickel strap and the case. you can search ebay and find what he is charging now.

 

[MrDude_1]

That's because the multistage are low c lipo intended to extend flight times of multirotor rc helicopters. Thy are not the cheap deal lipo, nor are they the high power lipo. Stop looking at them for comparing lipo.

If you can give us a link,. to a comparable lipo with similar stats as the $390 lifepo4 battery I provided , at a similar price point, please do .

All im saying is I spent weeks comparing prices and I was unable to find any type of lipo packs, that offered a substantial price savings when compared to 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 battery packs , which also come with a BMS unit and charger for $390 shipped.... keeping in mind, that if a person did not want or need the charger BMS unit that comes with the $390 lifepo4 battery, they could easily sell both of those items on ebay for about $50....further bringing the price of the $390 lifepo4, even lower.

There are a few reviews on hobbyking, for the multi-star - 6s - 16000 mah lipo packs....and those reviews arent good.

I dont know how many times I need to say this in the thread. Going to lipo is for people willing to do things themselves, or pay extra to have someone make lipo work for them.

If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to learn and build, then dont go to lipo.

stop looking for a premade pack.

 

[999zip999]

Plus a barbeque for charging and storage.

 

[ebikedelight]

That's because the multistage are low c lipo intended to extend flight times of multirotor rc helicopters. Thy are not the cheap deal lipo, nor are they the high power lipo. Stop looking at them for comparing lipo.

If you can give us a link,. to a comparable lipo with similar stats as the $390 lifepo4 battery I provided , at a similar price point, please do .

All im saying is I spent weeks comparing prices and I was unable to find any type of lipo packs, that offered a substantial price savings when compared to 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 battery packs , which also come with a BMS unit and charger for $390 shipped.... keeping in mind, that if a person did not want or need the charger BMS unit that comes with the $390 lifepo4 battery, they could easily sell both of those items on ebay for about $50....further bringing the price of the $390 lifepo4, even lower.

There are a few reviews on hobbyking, for the multi-star - 6s - 16000 mah lipo packs....and those reviews arent good.

I dont know how many times I need to say this in the thread. Going to lipo is for people willing to do things themselves, or pay extra to have someone make lipo work for them.

If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to learn and build, then dont go to lipo.

stop looking for a premade pack.

I have no problem connecting several lipo packs in series or parellel , or soldering or making y harnesses ,etc.

I dont know how many times I need to say this, but im waiting for someone to post links to lipos that are considerably less expensive then comparable 48 v olt/ 20 ah lifepo4 packs....so far, not 1 person has been able to do it . Im still waiting,.


Now, if this means buying individual 1 cell lipos and having to take the time to solder numerous cells to come up with a 12s pack, then im not interested in that, and I doubt most people would be.....but being able to purchase premade - 4s or 6 s packs, and then just use a y harness to connect them and come up with neccessary voltage and mah options, comparable to a 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 pack , in performance and price, is something many people would be interested in . So far, I havent seen 1 person provide a link that accomplishes this.

 

[wesnewell]

Your lifepo4 pack cost 38 cents per wh. My rc lipo pack cost 31 cents per wh and configured as12s4p is rated for 400A That's 10 times the rating of your lifepo4 pack and it's smaller, lighter, and in ~5 seconds can be configured as 24s2p, rated for 200A. And that's the way I run it. I've used the same charger to charge 5 different packs over the last 4 years, so can't really add it to the cost of the pack I now use. So why don't you find me a 10ah 88.8V lifepo4 pack rated for 200A output that cost less than $275, which would be the cost of a replacement pack for me? good luck with that.

 

[ebikedelight]

Your lifepo4 pack cost 38 cents per wh. My rc lipo pack cost 31 cents per wh and configured as12s4p is rated for 400A That's 10 times the rating of your lifepo4 pack and it's smaller, lighter, and in ~5 seconds can be configured as 24s2p, rated for 200A. And that's the way I run it. I've used the same charger to charge 5 different packs over the last 4 years, so can't really add it to the cost of the pack I now use. So why don't you find me a 10ah 88.8V lifepo4 pack rated for 200A output that cost less than $275, which would be the cost of a replacement pack for me? good luck with that.

But I have no need for a battery that is rated for 400 amps...so thats a moot point for my needs. My ebiking isnt involving racing or constant full throttle.

For your setup , you are using 88.8 volts...my setup only requires 48 volt . Ive searched for a few weeks, and have not found a comparable lipo setup to the 48 volt lifepo4/ 20 ah battery that is significantly less then $390 . I am open to using lipos, as soon as someone can supply me a link to one that offers much better performance and price to a comparable lifepo4.

Im not trying to convince you to use lifepo4 for your needs...im trying to find someone to convince me of using lipos over lifepo4, for my needs , by proving its significantly cheaper, and offers better all around performance { power/ distance ,etc} .

The multi-star -6s- 16000 mah lipo packs, have a few very bad reviews....I do not want to spend $300 on lipo packs, that do not have longevity or perform at the rates the factory claims.

 

[wesnewell]

No one could ever convince me to use lifepo4, or 18650 cells for that matter, so don't worry about that. And I really don't care what you use either. If you like your lifepo4 pack use it, even though it cost more, weighs more, and is larger than rc lipo. A fact that's been pointed out by more than just me. If you baby that pack you may get as much life from it as I do from my rc lipo pack. I've got a little over 10K miles on it now.

 

[ebikedelight]

No one could ever convince me to use lifepo4, or 18650 cells for that matter, so don't worry about that. And I really don't care what you use either. If you like your lifepo4 pack use it, even though it cost more, weighs more, and is larger than rc lipo. A fact that's been pointed out by more than just me. If you baby that pack you may get as much life from it as I do from my rc lipo pack. I've got a little over 10K miles on it now.

from the material Ive read, most experts seem to claim that its common for lifepo4 to get more cycles then lipo { especially the inexpensive lipo packs sold thru places like hobbyking } . I see you have gotten good mileage from your lipo pack..and I have gotten 3 years out of my lifepo4 pack, and every cell still charges and holds max capacity .....and Ive never had to balance my pack.

also, from my research on prices, I have not found where comparable lipo pack of similar voltage and capacity to lifepo4 { 48 volt- 20 ah - lifepo4 vs 13s - 20 ah lipo } is noteably less expensive . Ive asked several times on this thread, for someone to provide us a link proving that lipos are significantly less expensive and I havent seen anyone accomplish that yet.

I actually am interested in using lipo for my current ebike build...but the prices and claimed reduction in cycle life compared to lifepo4 of similar capacity and voltage , did not seem to be noticeably better . From what I could see, the 2 main benefits lipo offered over lifepo4 was :

reduced weight , reduced size....but they were not less expensive , they certainly werent safer , they needed much more attention in regards to charging, discharging , storage issues , reduced cycle life , reports of puffing- damaged cells , etc.

For $390 shipped , I am getting a 48 volt- 20 ah lifepo4 battery that gets good reviews from its current owners , comes with a specific charger and a built in BMS for $390 shipped. Is there any lipo packs on the market that can match this or beat this deal ?

If so, im willing to purchase it . I agree that the large size and weight of lifepo4 is annoying when compared to a lipo pack .

 

[friendly1uk]

You want us to post up something comparable. So I must look what yours is.

A pack won at auction 2 months ago is not an indication of market value. Why don't you show us a pack that actually exists, then we might take up the challenge.

 

[dogman dan]

Lifepo4 is still a valid choice for many, just as, believe it or not, lead can be for some people. Not many, but some.

Right now, I have hobby lipo, have had lifepo4, and have an allcell pack with LG 18650's.

Because of the convenience, I use the allcell pack the most. But it's 4v less than my lipo, 13s vs 14s, and it sags like grannies tits. even with a mild controller, 4 v of sag at least, vs 1v sag with the lipo.

So though I love the convenience, it's in effect 7 volts less than my HK packs, so if I want full speed, it's the HK stuff.

Lifepo4 is supposed to last forever, but my climate, and keeping them in a hot garage killed them in 3 years. Don't do that anymore, but just saying, no guarantee you will really see 2000 cycles.

The cheapest battery per mile I ever owned, was a ping lifepo4. The HK stuff can last 3-4 years, but again my climate. by year 3, they lose a ton of capacity. And I have to constantly worry they will burn my house down if I drop a pack. No worries like that with the allcell pack or lifepo4. Dropping them won't be good either, but less likely to burst into flames that way.

What can be really cool about the hobby packs is the flexibility. One set of packs can run 24v, 36v, 48v. 72v, etc. That can be nice. I run my old tired hobby packs to mow my lawn with a 24v mower. That way I still wring the max use out of the old stuff.

 

[ebikedelight]

You want us to post up something comparable. So I must look what yours is.

A pack won at auction 2 months ago is not an indication of market value. Why don't you show us a pack that actually exists, then we might take up the challenge.

I just purchased that same pack from a ebay vendor, using pay-pal only , for $390 shipped ...which also came with a BMS and charger,.

So my challenge still stands.

My pack is due to arrive next week, shipped from LA.

 

[MrDude_1]

You want us to post up something comparable. So I must look what yours is.

A pack won at auction 2 months ago is not an indication of market value. Why don't you show us a pack that actually exists, then we might take up the challenge.

I just purchased that same pack from a ebay vendor, using pay-pal only , for $390 shipped ...which also came with a BMS and charger,.

So my challenge still stands.

My pack is due to arrive next week, shipped from LA.

its not a challenge.
You do not want or need any of the benefits of lipo. So go take your pack that apparently you're perfectly happy with and pedal away.

 

[ebikedelight]

Lifepo4 is still a valid choice for many, just as, believe it or not, lead can be for some people. Not many, but some.

Right now, I have hobby lipo, have had lifepo4, and have an allcell pack with LG 18650's.

Because of the convenience, I use the allcell pack the most. But it's 4v less than my lipo, 13s vs 14s, and it sags like grannies tits. even with a mild controller, 4 v of sag at least, vs 1v sag with the lipo.

So though I love the convenience, it's in effect 7 volts less than my HK packs, so if I want full speed, it's the HK stuff.

Lifepo4 is supposed to last forever, but my climate, and keeping them in a hot garage killed them in 3 years. Don't do that anymore, but just saying, no guarantee you will really see 2000 cycles.

The cheapest battery per mile I ever owned, was a ping lifepo4. The HK stuff can last 3-4 years, but again my climate. by year 3, they lose a ton of capacity. And I have to constantly worry they will burn my house down if I drop a pack. No worries like that with the allcell pack or lifepo4. Dropping them won't be good either, but less likely to burst into flames that way.

What can be really cool about the hobby packs is the flexibility. One set of packs can run 24v, 36v, 48v. 72v, etc. That can be nice. I run my old tired hobby packs to mow my lawn with a 24v mower. That way I still wring the max use out of the old stuff.

Appreciate your reply.

I am not trying to insinuate that lipo packs are a bad alternative...im just stating that I spent the time researching if they were a significant cheaper alternative to lifepo4 in regards to similar capacity / voltage , and I found this wasnt the case. In fact, if a person needed a BMS and a charger, lifepo4 actually seemed to be a better value since they often come as standard items with a 48 volt lifepo4 battery sold on ebay.

Lipos 2 main benefits seemed to be less weight and smaller size. ...but they did not seem to offer better cost , more cycle life , more convenience , more safety ,etc.

For anyone purchasing a large voltage/ capacity lipo packs for the 1st time to use on their ebike , they probably would also need to buy a charger , a BMS system , 10-12 gauge wire and connectors to make Y harnesses to hook the packs up in series/ parrellel, etc. ..and then have the concerns that if they drop a pack, over charge a pack or run the pack to low , the pack will be destroyed or ignite .

For me, these factors did not make lipo a better choice.....BUT, if lipos could be purchased for 25% less then the 48 volt/20 ah lifepo4 battery system, then the money savings may be worth the extra diligence that lipos command .

 

[ebikedelight]

You want us to post up something comparable. So I must look what yours is.

A pack won at auction 2 months ago is not an indication of market value. Why don't you show us a pack that actually exists, then we might take up the challenge.

I just purchased that same pack from a ebay vendor, using pay-pal only , for $390 shipped ...which also came with a BMS and charger,.

So my challenge still stands.

My pack is due to arrive next week, shipped from LA.

its not a challenge.
You do not want or need any of the benefits of lipo. So go take your pack that apparently you're perfectly happy with and pedal away.

So we agree, that lipo is really not significantly less expensive then lifepo4 ?

I can assure you, that with my 3 year old 48 volt lifepo4 battery , I never have to pedal, if I chose not to . My area has some steep roads , and im able to ascend those roads without pedaling and my top speed on flat roads is 36 mph .

 

[friendly1uk]

The cheapest lipo we buy are the 5Ah bricks you can kick around all day long. Making packaging cheaper. The mystical $390 pack wouldn't survive a fraction of that abuse.

My bike fly's along in the upper 20s (mph) using $75 worth of cells, and $50 worth of bms and charger I will keep for life. Range about 10 miles and weight well under 2kg.

Having asked for proof but not furnished with some, I'm going to guess the $390 pack don't exist, so this is all rather mute.

There are many ebay sellers with bad packs. They round up all the rejects and sell them to the cost conscious. Often they are dead on arrival, have fake cells, bad cells and poor packaging. Or will be lipo not life.

Circumstantial evidence suggests this pack don't exist. Thus no comparison can be made.

 

[ebikedelight]

LOL....if you say so .

 

[999zip999]

It takes more for a working lipo battery then a few 5ah packs. The cost Must include power supply, charger, wire harnesses and or bms. So please add all this in price quotes. To be fair. So add up all you need for a working battery pack. Plus a safe charging station. A Barbeque.

 

[ebikedelight]

Possibly it would take ages to some people, so to realize that Headway 38120L and S, is a tremendously easy regarding handling cell so to form a battery with it, in 15-20 minutes.
And in conclusion the labor cost is not significant and neither justifies a high retail price.

Some people invested time and money at supporting regular Li-ion, this is yesterday news today.
And according to market rules, they have to follow and offer what their new customers requiring so to stay in business.
Additionally they should avoid playing mind games and manipulate public opinion according to their own best interest.
Less in number cells, and larger in dimensions cells with long life-cycle is the future.

I am willing to learn .

Can you please provide links which show the cost and capacity/voltage for assembling a Headway 38120L and S battery pack that can compete in price with a
$390 lifepo4 battery that is 48 volts - 16 cell - 20 ah ?

I am in america, so I would need price links that apply to my country .

 

[999zip999]

Headway headquarters in Seattle.

 

[tomtnt]

I got my lifepo4 (48v 15ah) from that seller.

Fast shipping and good customer service. Sent me a new BMS when I accidentally shorted my battery and fried the BMS.

It's super heavy and bulky compared to my lipo setup though