Need ideas for upgrading from a pedal-assist to a pedal-assist + torque assist.

[ampflp]

Current equipment: Dillinger pedal-assist (street-legal) kit, front hub, (for reference - Street Legal Electric Bike Kit - Samsung Power 2.0).

I want to upgrade this by adding the ability to use a torque-assist method. Ideally I could switch between torque and pedal-sensing.

I've seen discussions about a pre-controller sort of thing that might wire into my existing controller.

I need ideas, options, advice! -

 

[stancecoke]

I've seen discussions about a pre-controller

you don't need a pre-controller, the linked set uses a Kunteng Sine Wave controller, so you can flash the open firmware and connect a bottom bracked torquesensor directly to the controller.
The project is a little outdated, as the Kunteng is very outdated

regards
stancecoke

 

[E-HP]

you don't need a pre-controller, the linked set uses a Kunteng Sine Wave controller, so you can flash the open firmware and connect a bottom bracked torquesensor directly to the controller.
The project is a little outdated, as the Kunteng is very outdated

regards
stancecoke

The ad is odd. Dillinger doesn’t make anything, they just slap their name on parts to sell on their eBay store etc. I bought a KT LCD3 from their eBay store and the manual just had Dillinger printed on the KT manual.
Anyway, the oddity is the same ad, the kit includes an incompatible Bafang display. I seem to recall that the firmware flashes KT based displays, so may need to check the thread again.

 

[slaphappygamer]

With the custom firmware, where would the torque sensor connect to? Would you connect it in place of the cadence sensor?

 

[stancecoke]

Would you connect it in place of the cadence sensor?

You can find all the information at the GitHub wiki and the German wiki at pedelecforum.de

If you want to use the torquesensor and the throttle in parallel, you have to connect the torque signal to the X4 pad in the PCB. Otherwise you can connect the torquesignal to the throttle input.

regards
stancecoke

 

[docw009]

Another point of view. You can buy a torque sensing TSDZ2B for under $300 and have a nice low power middrive bike. It won't be as snappy as a 500W rear drive Dillinger, but it should be comparable to their 250W front drives.

And if you want to mess around with firmware, I think the current TSDZB's sold by pswpower can still take OSF firmware.

 

[ampflp]

With the custom firmware, where would the torque sensor connect to? Would you connect it in place of the cadence sensor?

this is another question I have, what sort of torque sensor is good for a front hub e-bike? I read about bottom bracket, crank arms, dropout etc?

 

[ampflp]

The ad is odd. Dillinger doesn’t make anything, they just slap their name on parts to sell on their eBay store etc. I bought a KT LCD3 from their eBay store and the manual just had Dillinger printed on the KT manual.
Anyway, the oddity is the same ad, the kit includes an incompatible Bafang display. I seem to recall that the firmware flashes KT based displays, so may need to check the thread again.

Interesting, is there a newer controller that would work with the battery and motor I have, and give me the ability to use torque, pedal, or throttle as needed?

 

[E-HP]

Interesting, is there a newer controller that would work with the battery and motor I have, and give me the ability to use torque, pedal, or throttle as needed?

Maybe the description had an error. What display did they send you?

 

[ampflp]

More info: possibly I do not in fact have a KT controller :-(. I'm including a picture of the board -
LSW-QTF32K-V01

 

[ampflp]

Another point of view. You can buy a torque sensing TSDZ2B for under $300 and have a nice low power middrive bike. It won't be as snappy as a 500W rear drive Dillinger, but it should be comparable to their 250W front drives.

And if you want to mess around with firmware, I think the current TSDZB's sold by pswpower can still take OSF firmware.

Interesting - thanks. I would rather stay with my current front-hub drive if I can get it to work with this-

 

[ampflp]

Maybe the description had an error. What display did they send you?

It is a Bafang C965 display.

 

[E-HP]

It is a Bafang C965 display.

Since you already have the controller and display, make sure the kit works first, then buy a Cycle Analyst from Grin, which will support a torque sensor.

 

[amberwolf]

More info: possibly I do not in fact have a KT controller :-(. I'm including a picture of the board -
LSW-QTF32K-V01

LS possibly indicates a LiShui controller. KT controller models typically start with KT.

Yours looks like this one

Daumengas Einbau Steuergerät anschließen

Hallo Leute, ich bin blutiger Anfänger im Bereich E-Bikes aber tüftele gerne selbst erstmal an einer Sache bevor ich mir Hilfe hole. Jetzt ist es aber an der Zeit einen Profi nach Rat zu fragen👍Ich habe mit ein Daumengas gekauft und würde gerne wissen wie und wo ich die drei Kabel anschließen...

www.pedelecforum.de

 

[ampflp]

Since you already have the controller and display, make sure the kit works first, then buy a Cycle Analyst from Grin, which will support a torque sensor.

Thank you, I think that’s what I want to do, but I don’t understand how the Cycle Analyst would physically integrate into what I have now. Could you advise with that?
The kit, as is, I’ve used for about 9,000 miles so far.
and I’m ready to graduate to a torque system..

 

[E-HP]

Thank you, I think that’s what I want to do, but I don’t understand how the Cycle Analyst would physically integrate into what I have now. Could you advise with that?
The kit, as is, I’ve used for about 9,000 miles so far.
and I’m ready to graduate to a torque system..

The CA will work with any controller with a throttle input. Both the throttle and the PAS plug into the CA instead of the controller, and for the PAS, it converts to signal to a throttle output. The CA requires battery voltage, and current as inputs, as well a speed input, and has a throttle output connected to the controller. It can get the speed and voltage from the controller. The version of CA that you’ll want has a shunt for sampling current, that’s placed in line with you battery conductor between the battery and controller. With those inputs, the CA can do a pretty large variety of things and provide a lot of data.
If you get one for your torque PAS, you will over time realize the other features and benefits. Some people say it’s dated, and while the screen is a basic non color LCD, there really isn’t anything, short of making something custom programmed with with Arduino, etc., that is available and performs similar functions. If you ever decide you want to upgrade your controller, you can just get a “dumb” controller and connect it to the CA and you retain all of your functions and preferences.
It’s sort of like the old days when audiophiles wanted component stereo systems, so they could change or upgrade components without replacing the entire audio system. For a lot of folks this is the preferred path, since good programmable controllers are pretty expensive to replace, and frequently costa lot more than a CA/dumb controller combo.
The one technical thing you need to be aware of is that torque sensing PAS units typically require around 10v to operate, so in most cases you will need a small buck converter to supply that, since most controllers or the CA don’t have that voltage available. You will need to deal with that regardless of how you decide to implement it, CA or no CA.

EDIT: Search the forum on Lishui controllers. As amberwolf pointed out, it's possible that your controller is a Lishui. You'll find a few threads on open source firmware for certain models of Lishui that support torque sensors. I didn't recognize your model number in the posts I saw, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[ampflp]

The CA will work with any controller with a throttle input. Both the throttle and the PAS plug into the CA instead of the controller, and for the PAS, it converts to signal to a throttle output. The CA requires battery voltage, and current as inputs, as well a speed input, and has a throttle output connected to the controller. It can get the speed and voltage from the controller. The version of CA that you’ll want has a shunt for sampling current, that’s placed in line with you battery conductor between the battery and controller. With those inputs, the CA can do a pretty large variety of things and provide a lot of data.
If you get one for your torque PAS, you will over time realize the other features and benefits. Some people say it’s dated, and while the screen is a basic non color LCD, there really isn’t anything, short of making something custom programmed with with Arduino, etc., that is available and performs similar functions. If you ever decide you want to upgrade your controller, you can just get a “dumb” controller and connect it to the CA and you retain all of your functions and preferences.
It’s sort of like the old days when audiophiles wanted component stereo systems, so they could change or upgrade components without replacing the entire audio system. For a lot of folks this is the preferred path, since good programmable controllers are pretty expensive to replace, and frequently costa lot more than a CA/dumb controller combo.
The one technical thing you need to be aware of is that torque sensing PAS units typically require around 10v to operate, so in most cases you will need a small buck converter to supply that, since most controllers or the CA don’t have that voltage available. You will need to deal with that regardless of how you decide to implement it, CA or no CA.

EDIT: Search the forum on Lishui controllers. As amberwolf pointed out, it's possible that your controller is a Lishui. You'll find a few threads on open source firmware for certain models of Lishui that support torque sensors. I didn't recognize your model number in the posts I saw, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm getting a more clear picture of how complicated this is! -
Sounds like I could use my existing battery, and put a CA3 in between the battery and the existing controller, then somehow attach all the components into the CA3.
Is there an advantage if I were to also use Baserunner instead of the existing Lishui controller?

 

[_Stephan_]

No experiece w/ Dillinger Pedal Assist or KT Controllers - but would advise to read out torque and PAS Sensor by Arduino or WEMOS D1 mini and couple its Analog Out with Throttle input.
So you can tune the support depending on pedal torque and speed.

 

[RunForTheHills]

I'm getting a more clear picture of how complicated this is! -
Sounds like I could use my existing battery, and put a CA3 in between the battery and the existing controller, then somehow attach all the components into the CA3.
Is there an advantage if I were to also use Baserunner instead of the existing Lishui controller?

There is certainly an advantage to buying a kit from Grin in that it is easy to to install and all the components just plug together. I installed their front hub Brompton kit with a torque sensor and the whole project only took a few hours.

 

[RunForTheHills]

There is certainly an advantage to buying a kit from Grin in that it is easy to to install and all the components just plug together. I installed their front hub Brompton kit with a torque sensor and the whole project only took a few hours.

MTA: The Baserunner has a dedicated 6 pin connector for the torque sensor and 8 pin connector for the CA. So it simplifies connecting those devices.

 

[ampflp]

Upgrading my kit so I can add a torque sensor. I'm looking at CA3 and baserunner.
My existing motor has a spec of '7A continuous and 15A max'. Will I be able to use the baserunner with this limitation?

 

[E-HP]

The controller will allow you to set max power and max phase current, so between those settings, you will be able to set appropriate limits to protect your motor.

 

[stancecoke]

Is there an advantage if I were to also use Baserunner instead of the existing Lishui controller?

The "advantage" is that you pay three times the price for the same functionality and an outdated ugly display
Sorry, Justin is a real pioneer in ebike technologies, I really like his work and his innovative products. But using a CA to connect a torque sensor to a controller is out of date.

 

[ampflp]

The "advantage" is that you pay three times the price for the same functionality and an outdated ugly display
Sorry, Justin is a real pioneer in ebike technologies, I really like his work and his innovative products. But using a CA to connect a torque sensor to a controller is out of date.

Interesting. Is there something else I should be considering? - Looking for a front-hub kit or parts of a kit that allows torque bottom bracket functionality. And - I've seen the CA display, I am wishing it looked better too!

 

[amberwolf]

You don't have to use the CA to get torque sensor functionality with the BR; it directly supports them according to the BR page:

Baserunner - Grin Products - Product Info

The Baserunner is a slim profile field-oriented motor controller that fits inside the baseplate of popular downtube battery packs. This product is based around ASI’s BAC355 controller platform ,but is configured and connectorized to be much easier to wire up in an aftermarket ebike.

ebikes.ca

6 Pin PAS / Torque A 6 Pin HiGo Mini-B or equivalent waterproof plug allows for direct hookup of a PAS or Torque sensor to the motor controller. The pin standard is compatible with the ERider torque sensors, and uses 12V rather than 5V for the power supply. This cable is not used or required when PAS or torque assist is handle via a Cycle Analyst, but it will provides a future option for using the native PAS feature of the controller without a CA device attached.

Once they release the Main9 Superharness kits they emailed about back in December, you can use 3rd party displays on the BR, including various "colorful" ones. Dunno when that will be as there wasn't a date in the email, and nothing on their blog about it yet.



If for any reason you want the other CA functionality, you don't have to put it on the handlebars--it can go wherever you want it, in a bag, battery box, etc. If you need to change settings on it (presets, assist levels, etc) you can use remote buttons or knobs to do this; see the CA pages on their site, and the CA accessories in their shop for options. (you can also build your own controls to connect to the CA based on the info in the manual).