New Panasonic Cell ncr18650bd 3200mah
- Thread starter savaoaknyc
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liveforphysics
100 TW
circuit said:
I suspect you may have had a counterfit NCR18650B. Even months after the cells release, it took me 3 purchases of the NCR18650PD cells (just buying through various ebay vendors) before a seller in Germany charging triple of the prices of the retailers in Asia I had previously used. They sent me a pair that visually looked identical to the others. Testing it's performance gave me awareness that 18650's could indeed make an excellent EV battery (with the caveat that you also must find a way to structurally support hundreds/thousands of tiny cans from resonating into interconnect fatigue failure, chaffing issues, corrosion galvanic/chemical/abrasion, etc.) As Tesla has shown, it is a problem with solutions and 18650 based packs can perform fine in EV's if designed for the application properly.
Science Faction
1 W
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 59
Hi All,
Does anyone have a reliable source of these cells?
Preferably not at the 3x price LFP secured real BD's for!
LFP, can you share any of your test data please?
I would love to know what temp they get to at 10A drain.
I am looking to use these in a quadrotor project at 3S4P.
So i need 24 minimum to have 2 sets and maybe I will get 50 if the price is right.
I have noticed some dealers on alibaba have 50 unit minimums.
I want to run the the 3S in line in the carbon fibre frame tubes leading out to the motors.
On the outboard end I want them to run directly into the ESC's on the inboard end I want to be able to connect them all in parallel.
The motors I want to use max out at 6.9A.
Should I use the protected cells if i'm not going to run a bms?
Here are some links for suppliers I have found.
Shenzhen Enough Power Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/60048591342-High-quality-original-panasonic-ncr18650bd-3.html
Shenzhen ENOVA Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/60041563334-Original-for-Panasonic-NCR18650BD-3-7v.html
Shenzhen Zhanmai Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/1787629211-Panasonic-NCR18650BD-3-7V-3200mAH-Li.html
Shenzen EVVA
http://au.alibaba.com/product/1902897203-EVVA-Protected-10A-High-Drain-Li.html
cheers
Paul
Does anyone have a reliable source of these cells?
Preferably not at the 3x price LFP secured real BD's for!
LFP, can you share any of your test data please?
I would love to know what temp they get to at 10A drain.
I am looking to use these in a quadrotor project at 3S4P.
So i need 24 minimum to have 2 sets and maybe I will get 50 if the price is right.
I have noticed some dealers on alibaba have 50 unit minimums.
I want to run the the 3S in line in the carbon fibre frame tubes leading out to the motors.
On the outboard end I want them to run directly into the ESC's on the inboard end I want to be able to connect them all in parallel.
The motors I want to use max out at 6.9A.
Should I use the protected cells if i'm not going to run a bms?
Here are some links for suppliers I have found.
Shenzhen Enough Power Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/60048591342-High-quality-original-panasonic-ncr18650bd-3.html
Shenzhen ENOVA Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/60041563334-Original-for-Panasonic-NCR18650BD-3-7v.html
Shenzhen Zhanmai Technology Co., Ltd.
http://au.alibaba.com/product/1787629211-Panasonic-NCR18650BD-3-7V-3200mAH-Li.html
Shenzen EVVA
http://au.alibaba.com/product/1902897203-EVVA-Protected-10A-High-Drain-Li.html
cheers
Paul
You should trust reliable reviewers, not some random, made up specs from chinese dealers.
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=536
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=535
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=531
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=545
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Keeppower%20IMR18650%203200mAh%20%28Black%29%202014%20UK.html
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=536
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=535
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=531
http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=545
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Keeppower%20IMR18650%203200mAh%20%28Black%29%202014%20UK.html
fellow
1 kW
I'm using NCR18650PF since they came out, see my signature for more info. They are extreme high quality cells. I've managed to pull out 10A+ per cell, AFTER depleating the whole pack to 0V, holding it there for a few weeks and recharging it again. I could simply not kill it. Tried to depleate it to 0V and overcharge again, they are totally unreal. Their hybrid compoud responds very well to torturing. I could not belive when I got the same range out of them after all the torture tests inclusive shorting. Simply put: incredible cells! They are not made for capacity, but for durability. There are higher capacity cells out there, but their chemistry is unforgiving. There is no free lunch.
:lol:fellow
1 kW
The sick thing is that the whole pack got 0V for weeks (first time by accident, never loan a ebike to your friend). I assumed the pack was dead so I started torturing it instead of babying it back to life 
. I simply wanted to kill the batteries so I could buy the fresh ones, I hate having half-good things laying around in my garage. It turned out that those are really interesting chemistry, and not that easy to kill as the normal LiPos. There is very little knollege that this kind of masochistic batteries actually do exist, but they are in the constant shadow of the high capacity ones.
. I simply wanted to kill the batteries so I could buy the fresh ones, I hate having half-good things laying around in my garage. It turned out that those are really interesting chemistry, and not that easy to kill as the normal LiPos. There is very little knollege that this kind of masochistic batteries actually do exist, but they are in the constant shadow of the high capacity ones.
Ch00paKabrA
10 kW
Paul,
Have you actually bought from this supplier. The reason I ask is that I attempted to order from them through their store on Aliexpress and suddenly every item will disappear then reappear a month or so later and my confidence in them is shaken. This happens quite frequently.
If so, what was the experience like?
cwah
100 MW
fellow said:
who did you buy the cells from?
You can have them from here for crazy low price, if you are from EU:
http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650pf-3-7v-2900mah.html
So, I've just tested Panasonic 18650BE, 4.2 to 2.5 V, 5A. I got 3176 mah, and the cell got slightly warm to the touch (a little bit more towards the 2.5 V). This is interesting because it got as warm as samsung 25R in the same test, which has almost the double less internal resistance. This is only a finger method thought.
http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650pf-3-7v-2900mah.html
So, I've just tested Panasonic 18650BE, 4.2 to 2.5 V, 5A. I got 3176 mah, and the cell got slightly warm to the touch (a little bit more towards the 2.5 V). This is interesting because it got as warm as samsung 25R in the same test, which has almost the double less internal resistance. This is only a finger method thought.
Science Faction
1 W
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 59
Hi ch00pakraba and the rest of you mob
I haven't bought any yet.
I am considering getting 12 panasonic ncr18650bd 3200mah 10A unprotected at $8.85 ea from mountain Electronics.
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_88&product_id=288
Or maybe the protected ones at $9.95 at the same place.
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_88&product_id=289
Does anyone have experience buying from mountain electronics or can you recommend somewhere reliable for these cells?
I'm in Bali but heading back to Byron Bay early Dec so somewhere close is better for freight.
I am also keen to get some 2500mah 30A Sony 18650 vct5's for a higher current application however most places appear out of stock, has anyone got a reliable source for these?
I just bought the motors for my octorotor, the tiger motor air350 set.,so I am motivated to get some cells ASAP.
Cheers
Paul
I haven't bought any yet.
I am considering getting 12 panasonic ncr18650bd 3200mah 10A unprotected at $8.85 ea from mountain Electronics.
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_88&product_id=288
Or maybe the protected ones at $9.95 at the same place.
http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_88&product_id=289
Does anyone have experience buying from mountain electronics or can you recommend somewhere reliable for these cells?
I'm in Bali but heading back to Byron Bay early Dec so somewhere close is better for freight.
I am also keen to get some 2500mah 30A Sony 18650 vct5's for a higher current application however most places appear out of stock, has anyone got a reliable source for these?
I just bought the motors for my octorotor, the tiger motor air350 set.,so I am motivated to get some cells ASAP.
Cheers
Paul
Gregory
100 kW
I've used FastTech.com in the past. They carry both the Sony and Panasonics.
Shipping is generally slow.
Caveat Emptor.
Shipping is generally slow.
Caveat Emptor.
Science Faction said:
People are really not reading... BD is NOT 10 A cell!!! BE are 10A ones. So be careful what you buy! And only you know if you need protected cells or not. What do you need them for, are you using it as a single cell or in the pack?
Science Faction
1 W
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 59
I'm confused.
Fastech call the BD 10A const
http://www.fasttech.com/product/1674900-authentic-panasonic-ncr18650bd-3-7v-3200mah
and the BE 3.6A const
http://www.fasttech.com/products/1420/10001980/1686800-authentic-panasonic-ncr18650be-3-6-3-7v-3180mah
Nearly every reference I have found to the BD has called it 10A constant discharge capable.
These guys are claiming 3-7 day free shipping at $8.76 US per protected cell in lots of 50
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/50pcs-lot-freight-free-Protection-18650-3200mAh-10A-NCR18650BD-3-6V-for-panasonic-battery-button/1332380_2032243155.html
Cheers
Paul
Fastech call the BD 10A const
http://www.fasttech.com/product/1674900-authentic-panasonic-ncr18650bd-3-7v-3200mah
and the BE 3.6A const
http://www.fasttech.com/products/1420/10001980/1686800-authentic-panasonic-ncr18650be-3-6-3-7v-3180mah
Nearly every reference I have found to the BD has called it 10A constant discharge capable.
These guys are claiming 3-7 day free shipping at $8.76 US per protected cell in lots of 50
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/50pcs-lot-freight-free-Protection-18650-3200mAh-10A-NCR18650BD-3-6V-for-panasonic-battery-button/1332380_2032243155.html
Cheers
Paul
okashira
10 kW
riba2233 said:
Nothing you have referred to confirms your assertion.
In fact, I am 99.5% sure you are wrong.
The BD cell is the 10A version and BE is rated for 3.6A or 6A.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?385536-KeepPower-18650-3200mah-(new-Panasonic-NCR18650BE-cell)-quick-review
Fasttech is a pretty reliable supplier. On their site, the BD cells are significantly more expensive then the BE cells.
I am researching cells for my E-Bike project, and considering BE vs PD vs B ... (BD is too expensive...)
fellow
1 kW
I've bought my NCR18650PF here (current price at 6.45€/piece):cwah said:
https://www.akkuteile.de/lithium-ionen-akkus/18650/panasonic/panasonic-ncr18650pf-a-2900mah-3-7v-ncr18650pd-loetfahne-u/a-1006341/
They do mention the PD on their page, but it's the PF they deliver. They have several different options (U-tab, Z-tab, no tabs/button), and they do speak english.
Tecnical data NCR18650PF:
Capacity: 2900mAh
Min capacity: 2750mAh
Nominal voltage: 3,7V
Charging voltage: 4,2V
Max discharge current: 3C 10A <----------It handles 10A well on my tests. No heatup using the 10A as a PEAK value (not continuous). They do sag considerably more at 10A than at 7A.
Max charge current: 0,7C 2A
Recommended LVC: 2,5V <-----This one is VERY interesting!! Panasonic recommends this low LVC too, which is a non practice here at ES. 3.0V-3.5V is more accepted.
Chemistry: LiNiCoAl <----According to http://www.akkuteile.de. This seems to vary a bit in between sources!
Diameter: 18,1mm ± 0,1 <----My measurement was 18,6mm+ if I remeber it correctly
Height: 64,95mm ± 0,1 <----This is a bit optimistic. My measurement is 66mm+ with tabs.
Mass: 46g ± 1 <-----I've measured it at 45g.
The BD is the higher discharge version. That is why it cost significantly more. The BE is rated 3.636A max discharge while the BD is 10A
I actually think the internal resistance is pretty close. Someone needs to confirm this. I'm guessing the difference must be in the electrolyte grade (temp vs life rating). 10A continous means you can run the cell from full charged to cutoff without overtemping the electrolyte. It is not only about about how much the cell sags. I'm also guessing the BD cell electrolyte can handle low temps as well since this is likely a Tesla cell. Tesla can control the shell temp of the cell with their cooling system, but they must make sure the core of the cell does not spike and exceed the electrolyte breakdown temp during any use condition. The reason they use small cells is because the core temp is likely much closer to the average temp than it would be for a larger cell. The heat distribution in a cell is fully modeled in a computer by Tesla and others. Right now they cool through the steel shell. For the Model 3 they are going to be cooling through the end of the cell which is in direct contact with the core. This is what allow the new gigafactory cell to be a little larger than the current 18650 cell
The BD cells we can buy are likely grade B or old grade A. The grade A+ cells are going into the Tesla Model S.
I actually think the internal resistance is pretty close. Someone needs to confirm this. I'm guessing the difference must be in the electrolyte grade (temp vs life rating). 10A continous means you can run the cell from full charged to cutoff without overtemping the electrolyte. It is not only about about how much the cell sags. I'm also guessing the BD cell electrolyte can handle low temps as well since this is likely a Tesla cell. Tesla can control the shell temp of the cell with their cooling system, but they must make sure the core of the cell does not spike and exceed the electrolyte breakdown temp during any use condition. The reason they use small cells is because the core temp is likely much closer to the average temp than it would be for a larger cell. The heat distribution in a cell is fully modeled in a computer by Tesla and others. Right now they cool through the steel shell. For the Model 3 they are going to be cooling through the end of the cell which is in direct contact with the core. This is what allow the new gigafactory cell to be a little larger than the current 18650 cell
The BD cells we can buy are likely grade B or old grade A. The grade A+ cells are going into the Tesla Model S.
fellow
1 kW
Just to add to the confusion, here is the pdf for Panasonic NCR18650BF 3400mAh (successor to the BD cell?) https://www.akkuteile.de/tpl/download/NCR-18650BF.pdf
So far my understanding is that B stands for the noteBook cell class (<7A) and P stands for the Power tool class (7A>). D,E,F,G and so on should stand for the generation of the cell? I may be wrong, Panasonics nomenclature is pure confusion at this point.
Pay attention that the "old" PF cell (45g-46g, 2,9Ah, 7.5A/10A/18A*) got more energy stored than the newest 26650 5200mAh "killer" cell (93g-97g, 15A/20A/30A*, 5,2Ah) because the PF is lighter (and less expensive). My guess is that it is the Panasonics (marked "made in Japan" on cells), or maybe the LG (the IMR name?). Here are the links to the new 26650 cell:
https://www.akkuteile.de/keeppower-imr26650-5200mah-20a-3-7v-li-ion-akku/a-12037/
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?386873-Test-Review-of-Keeppower-26650-5200mAh-%28Black%29-2014
*=so called fantasy max current peak value mentioned by some sources
So far my understanding is that B stands for the noteBook cell class (<7A) and P stands for the Power tool class (7A>). D,E,F,G and so on should stand for the generation of the cell? I may be wrong, Panasonics nomenclature is pure confusion at this point.
Pay attention that the "old" PF cell (45g-46g, 2,9Ah, 7.5A/10A/18A*) got more energy stored than the newest 26650 5200mAh "killer" cell (93g-97g, 15A/20A/30A*, 5,2Ah) because the PF is lighter (and less expensive). My guess is that it is the Panasonics (marked "made in Japan" on cells), or maybe the LG (the IMR name?). Here are the links to the new 26650 cell:
https://www.akkuteile.de/keeppower-imr26650-5200mah-20a-3-7v-li-ion-akku/a-12037/
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?386873-Test-Review-of-Keeppower-26650-5200mAh-%28Black%29-2014
*=so called fantasy max current peak value mentioned by some sources
check if you r getting Grade B and the mfg date
See Rank B. Also 6 months old. I've seen Rank A packs but they are often a year old. It is also critical the cells have been stored well. I wish one of you guys would move to China and source us some new Grade A cells.
See Rank B. Also 6 months old. I've seen Rank A packs but they are often a year old. It is also critical the cells have been stored well. I wish one of you guys would move to China and source us some new Grade A cells.
okashira
10 kW
fellow said:
I can confirm the PF is NOT NCA. It is not LiNiCoAl.
They are actually NCM chemistry.
The PFs are great for taking abuse, but their calendar life will be inferior to the PD's if cared for properly.
okashira
10 kW
flathill said:
Yes evidence points to the BD being the Model S cell
By the way, the highest end Model S will run up to 7C (22A) in short bursts... up to 4s or so at a time.
This is why I am looking into organizing a group buy on a wrecked model s.... grade A BD's at a low price.... just massive quantity.
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