New to the e-Bikes! pls help choose a hub motor

[Carmageddon]

Hello guys!

I found this forum through a guy I met in the street, driving an e-bike 8)
He told me that a good motor costs about 100$, which surprised me because my earlier research into this showed that good quality reliable hub motor costs about 600$

So, I started reading a bit here on the site, and looking for the Crystalyte hub motors, I am unsure still which one I need.. so I need help pls.

Those are my requirements:

• Price - NOT 600$ pls, cant afford this ATM.
• Torque over Speed (meaning acceleration is preferred to speed).
• Motor only package without spikes (will explain after the list why).
• Waterproof so I can ride in rain, without worrying about the motor.
• Dont care about Noise/Regen properties - I only commute 6.5km to work each direction, same for shopping (for big store, next to me small store 1km).
• Rear gear preferred, to be compatible with regular 6-7 gears for pedals ( to help masking it to keep looking like a normal bike).
• Heat resistance - it is intended to be used in Israel, where Summer can be very hot.
• Cruise speed capability - about 3km of the way to work/home are highway, so I want to be able to cruise at 80km/h to keep relative speed down to minimize risk.
• Sensors - I love data, and later on (when I get money..) I would want to have a display of a lot of data for tweaking, statistics, etc - only if the price addition is not big.

Some more information:
Apparently, new Israeli laws prohibit use of powerful engines, and above 25km/hr speed - which is designed to prevent proliferation of those bikes that are capable of replacing Cars and Motorcycles, where the government is making a LOT of money (about 50% of fuel cost is various taxes.. I am sick of it).
This means, that my best chance to get the engine into the country, is via an airplane - I will soon be flying to Moldova for 2 weeks, and I am thinking this is my only chance in the near future, to get one shipped there, and take it with me back in a flight without boxes etc, and they would never know what it really is (or ask taxes for it as well...) - so in this aspect, weight is important but not critical, more important is that it would be MOTOR only!! no spikes which increase the dimensions and give away what it is..

I have an old (3 yr) unused mountain bike on which I would install it - I will later order all other parts, but this engine is the one thing I HAVE to sneak into the country while I have a chance.

My flight is on the 23rd this month, which does not leave me much time to choose and order - this is why I am asking for your help, I don't have enough time to fully study all the different models, and I might still miss alternatives and various suggestions - I did spend a few hours on research so far, I read in another thread that suggested model are like Crystalyte X5, but I was not able to find any in my Google searches...


I would ask people NOT to suggest me reconsider due to country's laws - I will not.


Thanks!

 

[amberwolf]

He told me that a good motor costs about 100$, which surprised me because my earlier research into this showed that good quality reliable hub motor costs about 600$

Cost depends on your definition of "good", which depends on your needs.

Cost also depends on what you already have. If you just need a motor, and already have throttle, controller, batteries, etc., then costs will be less. If you have nothing, then batteries will probably cost more than your motor, especially for higher power levels.

If you are after high power levels, you will probably need a more expensive motor, controller, and batteries, though you can get away with cheaper ones if you can modify them for better cooling to get rid of the extra heat fast enough.

So, I started reading a bit here on the site, and looking for the Crystalyte hub motors, I am unsure still which one I need.. so I need help pls.

What is your reason for picking Crystalyte over all others? If it is "quality", then you may wish to look at others, as they are one of the most inconsistent in quality I am aware of.

[*] Torque over Speed (meaning acceleration is preferred to speed).

Then either a geared motor, or a motor wound for higher speed but mounted in a smaller rim (or as a middrive and geared down) would do this well.

[*] Waterproof so I can ride in rain, without worrying about the motor.

No such thing; water can get into any motor (take alook around ES for the 88-minute video about motors by Justin of Ebikes.ca / Grin Tech; it explains this very thoroughly by example). Best you can do is seal the important stuff against moisture and setup teh hub to be drainable after each ride. See Kingfish's RUST: DIY restoration thread about that. (among several others)

[*] Cruise speed capability - about 3km of the way to work/home are highway, so I want to be able to cruise at 80km/h to keep relative speed down to minimize risk.

Before you try this you NEED to read the various threads, several recent, about various high-speed bikes people wanted to build, the costs associated with that, and the safety issues and other problems.

It will almost certainly cost several times that $600 to do that kind of speed, at least with any reliability or safety.

[*] Sensors - I love data, and later on (when I get money..) I would want to have a display of a lot of data for tweaking, statistics, etc - only if the price addition is not big.[/list]

Depending on the data you are after, the Cycle Analyst and the Analogger from Ebikes.ca / Grin Tech are your best bet. But it will add significant cost.

I have an old (3 yr) unused mountain bike on which I would install it

Not having seen it, it is unlikely that your bike will safely ride at the speeds you're talking about, especially if you do not have PERFECT roads. See those other threads for discussions of why. your choice to try, but please look for and read those threads first.

 

[dogman dan]

You can't have what you want, not for cheap. (80 kph? that's all?) Nor have you enough time left for this trip. Shipping taking longer than 10 days is the most likely problem. If there is a vendor of anything where you are flying to, grab it and be happy you have something. Latch on to any kind of direct drive hubmotor, however cheap, and we'll show you how to run it at about 55 kph. Hope that will do for now.

Next time you fly out of the country, you can arrange to have a cromotor shipped to there well ahead of time. It will cost ya though. It's amazing how much $$ flies outta your pocket once you get into above 50 kph. The cheap motors can go much faster, but only for a few minuites before they melt. For 80 kph, you need the big wad of copper and big expensive magnets.

Crystalyte 5300 motors are no longer manufactured. 9 continent, golden motor, muxux, conhis, are examples of cheaper and smaller motors still capable of 65 kph breifly.

The fast crystalyte motor made today is the HS model. The HT is slower. Both, or the other motors mentioned will have good torque when fed enough amps. The speeds you want are not typical for gearmotors. You need dd.

 

[amberwolf]

The cheapest way to get a motor that might do part of what you want is here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43765
if you hurry and are willing and able to fix the problems they have.

 

[John in CR]

Carmageddon,

What kind of fabrication capacity do you have? I ask because you will need to modify your bike, and ebike hubbies aren't up to sustained high speed and high ambient temps without modification. What makes you believe that direct shipment isn't possible? Simply have it declared as an electric scooter motor.

 

[dogman dan]

Others have mentioned difficulty importing stuff to Israel. If nothing else, big duties to pay. But it might be quite possible, to import the big scooter motors John uses.

After all, they aren't bike motors. So maybe easier to import, if they think you are replacing a motor on your scooter.

Your run is short, so you can push a regular direct drive bike motor pretty far and get away with it. 60 kph definitely possible. Too bad you don't have more time. If you have to, buy a whole kit, and just remove the spokes to get back to bare motor.

 

[John in CR]

Your run is short, so you can push a regular direct drive bike motor pretty far and get away with it. 60 kph definitely possible.

He said 80kph and wants to cruise at that for 3km. That's 50mph for essentially 2 miles, and since battery charge status varies, he really needs a 55-60mph max speed ebike to cruise a 50. How many 50mph ebikes do you have? All of mine will handle that task, and my latest has a motor that is smaller in diameter and lighter than the original X5. The only "big scooter motors" I use are the motors I run at 20hp and up. What makes my other hubmotor wheels heavier than typical ebike hubbie wheels is because I use motorcycle and scooter rims and tires, so I don't get flats. I actually did pick up a screw in a tire once and got a flat, but I was able to ride it home at over 20mph just taking it very easy on any turns and curve.

John

 

[dogman dan]

Just one bike that will do 80 kph. It has a dirt cheap muxus hubmotor. It will definitely do 80 forkph for 2 miles, but it's overheating fast. Takes 26s lipo to reach that speed. But I call it a 75 kph bike because only the first few miles have enough voltage to actually touch 80kph. True enough, to cruise at 80kph is a different thing than to just touch it.

At 60 kph, the same motor will go about 10 miles with no real problems with heat till the very end of the ride, so that's why I said 60kph would be possible with just about any direct drive bike motor he can get his hands on in such a short time.

 

[John in CR]

Cool, I didn't know you tried anything above 100V, where controllers either get unreliable or expensive, and ebike hubbies all get hot. Is that your recommendation then? My failed experiments don't even make it to the forum unless there's a useful lesson to share.

 

[dogman dan]

Not so much a recomendation as just trying to let him know that anything he can get hold of can do 40 mph, 65 kph. Not what he really wants, but since the ride is short 60-65 kph is a realistic goal no matter what he comes home with in the bag.

No doubt, once he gets a bike that even does 60 kph, he'll want to ride it farther than 2k at times. If he sticks with 72v, he'll be able to make 15k runs.

 

[Carmageddon]

Apologies for the late reply!
My answer would be in blue.

He told me that a good motor costs about 100$, which surprised me because my earlier research into this showed that good quality reliable hub motor costs about 600$

Cost depends on your definition of "good", which depends on your needs.

Cost also depends on what you already have. If you just need a motor, and already have throttle, controller, batteries, etc., then costs will be less. If you have nothing, then batteries will probably cost more than your motor, especially for higher power levels.
I currently have nothing other than classic 25" mountain bike with 7 gears on the back wheel, 3 forward gears. My goal is only to get the one part I could have trouble importing.

If you are after high power levels, you will probably need a more expensive motor, controller, and batteries, though you can get away with cheaper ones if you can modify them for better cooling to get rid of the extra heat fast enough.

Well, after reading the responses, I am thinking I could live with 60km/hr for a while, until I can afford to go higher.

So, I started reading a bit here on the site, and looking for the Crystalyte hub motors, I am unsure still which one I need.. so I need help pls.

What is your reason for picking Crystalyte over all others? If it is "quality", then you may wish to look at others, as they are one of the most inconsistent in quality I am aware of.

The reason is reading the first free 20 pages of this book: http://www.fastelectricbike.com/book.html which seems to suggest only 2 brands as reliable and quality - but considering the budget restrictions, time due to shipping and availability in short time, I suppose I would try to get whatever I can that suits into this bike and is possible to ride few KMs on 60km/hr

[*] Torque over Speed (meaning acceleration is preferred to speed).

Then either a geared motor, or a motor wound for higher speed but mounted in a smaller rim (or as a middrive and geared down) would do this well.
Can you give an example please? There are so many models and motor types I got lost, I read the textual explanation for difference between brushed and brushless, and its not very clear without some pictures to show better, do you know of any better link explaining it? also others in the thread suggested a Direct Drive motor - why do you suggest Geared?

[*] Waterproof so I can ride in rain, without worrying about the motor.

No such thing; water can get into any motor (take alook around ES for the 88-minute video about motors by Justin of Ebikes.ca / Grin Tech; it explains this very thoroughly by example). Best you can do is seal the important stuff against moisture and setup teh hub to be drainable after each ride. See Kingfish's RUST: DIY restoration thread about that. (among several others)
Thanks, sounds weird.. I will look at the videos later today.

[*] Cruise speed capability - about 3km of the way to work/home are highway, so I want to be able to cruise at 80km/h to keep relative speed down to minimize risk.

Before you try this you NEED to read the various threads, several recent, about various high-speed bikes people wanted to build, the costs associated with that, and the safety issues and other problems.

It will almost certainly cost several times that $600 to do that kind of speed, at least with any reliability or safety.
Ok, I am willing to compromise, just as a POC to prove that its doable, and will save me money on fuel for few good months

[*] Sensors - I love data, and later on (when I get money..) I would want to have a display of a lot of data for tweaking, statistics, etc - only if the price addition is not big.[/list]

Depending on the data you are after, the Cycle Analyst and the Analogger from Ebikes.ca / Grin Tech are your best bet. But it will add significant cost.
Thanks - I will know what I need but the Analogger will have to wait, waht I meant is to purchase a motor which would later allow to connect to stuff such as Cycle Analyst to monitor it etc.

I have an old (3 yr) unused mountain bike on which I would install it

Not having seen it, it is unlikely that your bike will safely ride at the speeds you're talking about, especially if you do not have PERFECT roads. See those other threads for discussions of why. your choice to try, but please look for and read those threads first.

I will read, but actually the roads are quite new - all been done/redone in the last year, but my bike has a front suspension thing (not sure whether spring or air based though) - I will post a picture later today.


I appreciate your response, just so much to do and didn't have much time to look deeper into this yet...

 

[Carmageddon]

The cheapest way to get a motor that might do part of what you want is here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43765
if you hurry and are willing and able to fix the problems they have.

Thanks! this is a great idea, and the LOT3: eZee Rear 700C looks interesting, however my Google searches did not return me any specifications result, which would reveal like, what kind of drive is it, what is its top speed etc..

On Lot 18 they say: new motor, non disc - not sure what the non disc part means?

I would rather not take the ones with 30 day warranty, or more serious issues as I lack experience, and my tools at home are limited, I don't have a whole garage yet.

 

[Carmageddon]

Carmageddon,

What kind of fabrication capacity do you have? I ask because you will need to modify your bike, and ebike hubbies aren't up to sustained high speed and high ambient temps without modification. What makes you believe that direct shipment isn't possible? Simply have it declared as an electric scooter motor.

Fabrication tools are limited (mostly manual tools, various sets of tools such as flyer, and more.. I dont know how they are called), I do have friends with additional gear so tools should not stop me, but I'd rather keep modifications to the minimum at first, until I learn more and get more equipment.

 

[Carmageddon]

Others have mentioned difficulty importing stuff to Israel. If nothing else, big duties to pay. But it might be quite possible, to import the big scooter motors John uses.

After all, they aren't bike motors. So maybe easier to import, if they think you are replacing a motor on your scooter.

Your run is short, so you can push a regular direct drive bike motor pretty far and get away with it. 60 kph definitely possible. Too bad you don't have more time. If you have to, buy a whole kit, and just remove the spokes to get back to bare motor.

Actually Israel has restrictions in law on scooters too.. everything has to be "licensed" with various "certifications", and anything electric that's not really a motor vehicle with its own insurance etc, is not allowed to go above 25kph.

I think I will take your idea, and look there for some local motors, with the hope to find something cheap to get me started until my next trip where I'll plan orders in advance, and know more about what I actually need


Can you please just help me understand, what is direct drive motor compared to "regular" hub motor? so I'd know how to recognize it and what to look for...

 

[amberwolf]

The reason is reading the first free 20 pages of this book: http://www.fastelectricbike.com/book.html which seems to suggest only 2 brands as reliable and quality

Ah, well, if you read around the web and the forums, you will find that Crystalyte is not really any higher quality or more consistent than any other--in fact they may be even less consistent and/or relatively lower quality, considering the much higher prices you may pay for them.

I'm not aware of any typical Chinese ebike or scooter motor that is really consistent in it's quality, evne though some are very good you may find that even ordering a pair at the same time that are serialized close togehter may be very different in their build quality; it depends on which person did it and how they felt that day or even what materials they had to work with in some cases, I think.

also others in the thread suggested a Direct Drive motor - why do you suggest Geared?

They probably suggest DD because they can shed heat faster, and often can be run at a faster speed. I was only suggesting geared because you specified you wanted good torque, and typically for the same power input a geared hub can have higher torque than a DD especially off-the-line from a stop.

But a geared hub does not dissipate heat nearly as well as a DD, typically, and most of them use plastic gears of one type or another, which can break or even melt if you get them hot enough. The older little Fusin gearmotor I used on DayGlo Avenger has been abused enough in running higher voltage than it was made for plus pulling hard causing eventual overheating--hot enough I coudln't touch it, and would flash water to steam as I poured icewater onto it to help cool it, and hot enough to make the hall sensors stop working until it cooled off.

You can make an equivalent DD hub do the same thing at the same power levels, but it will take longer to do because it sheds heat faster.

Thanks - I will know what I need but the Analogger will have to wait, waht I meant is to purchase a motor which would later allow to connect to stuff such as Cycle Analyst to monitor it etc.

No ebike/scooter motor I'm aware of has anything in the way of data-collection sensors built into it--you will need to add them. Some of them have a thermistor built in, but very few. most just have the hall sensors for position sensing by the controller (although youc an also use that data for speed determination, and the CA-DP does do this by reading the controller's hall inputs). Some motors don't even have those.

Methods (methtek) has come up with the GizMo board and sensors and stuff you can use alogn with the CA for various stuff; there's a little info in the CA v3 beta thread, and he may ahve a separate thread about it in the for sale section.

 

[dnmun]

the battery is the critical part, the motors are ubiquitous and you could even find one locally i bet. but buying a capable and reliable battery is the key to usefulness.

just order a kit with motor controller and throttle from china like everyone else. so what if you have to pay duties, everybody does.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, he can go ahead and order a 250w kit. Anything more and they will stop it at the border But he wants to ride 80 kph. Get it?

I don't recomend gearmotors for that much more than they are designed for, so a bigger gearmotor is not really my choice for 80 kph, or even 60kph. I believe the MAC and BMC motors will do 50 kph though. With some reporting occasional troubles with clutches or other internal parts when running at 1000w on up. While even the cheapest dd motors seem to be able to tolerate 3000w for about 20-30 min.

In general, a gearmotor will say planetary gears, or freewheeling gearmotor, something like that. Direct drive may just say hubmotor. If the motor diameter is large, it's going to be a direct drive.

When I said maybe get a scooter motor, I meant a motor that would ( you'd claim anyway) be replacing a motor on a street legal, registered scooter. But maybe they won't buy that story at the border. I get it that customs actually checks stuff at your border.

Again, grab whatever you can since this is your chance. Even a smaller gearmotor can be run at close to 1000w. You won't have 80 kph by a long shot, but it will still beat the heck out of a 250w bike. Even a lame 30 kph bike beats one with only 20.

 

[John in CR]

Actually Israel has restrictions in law on scooters too.. everything has to be "licensed" with various "certifications", and anything electric that's not really a motor vehicle with its own insurance etc, is not allowed to go above 25kph.

All you want is a spare part for one that requires a license. I can't imagine that spare parts coming into the country are matched to the licensed vehicle. If you can accept a wheel diameter of under 20", then what you want is easy. If the large electric scooters exist in your country, then you might be able to pick up a motor capable of what you want for extremely cheap in the form of a broken or crashed scooter. The very slow 500W type scooters that come with or without pedals aren't what you're looking for. Simply look at the rear tire, and if it's wider than 10cm then it's most likely a motor capable of respectable power.

To give you an idea of the potential, my daily rider ebike hits 105kph with battery voltage sagging to 75V. That's with a 50kg ebike carrying 115kg me.

John

 

[Carmageddon]

Can you please link to a scooter or something similar of what you are suggesting? because I am not sure how to visualize what kind of scooter engine am I looking for.
Will it be as easy to install as a Hub motor? I don't want an engine which will require a whole transmission system...

I had help from friend, we checked and apparently such electric stuff is not imported officially into Moldova, (except indviduals maybe.. )

So, back to the beginning, do you have any not overly expensive direct drive motor which you recommend? I then will try finding someone who can ship fast enough...

 

[Carmageddon]

Ok, looking a bit around now that I know what to look for (a bit - cheap, non-geared).
I found this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-500W-for-Rear-Wheel-e-bike-e-bicycle-ebike-electric-bicycle-electric/550848605.html

Is that good for start? it has a lot of specs and yet nothing about top speed... also in the pictures I dont see holes for spokes?

 

[dogman dan]

No doubt the spoke holes are there.

Yes, that's the kind of generic ebike direct drive motor I was refering to. Typically they will go 20-25 mph on 36v, 25-30 mph on 48v, and on 72v will just touch 40 mph,-60kph.

Won't really do what you want reliably, but will do 60 kph for a short run for sure. The motor speed does depend on the winding, but generally the motor speed is in the range I just stated when laced to 26" rims. To hot rod the motor, you may need to run thicker wires to the hub but that's pretty easy.

Question is, can that get to where you are flying to, when shipped from china in time? You need a vendor that's in the same country as you will be in, so it can get there in time. Or are you going to china? I have no idea where Moldova is. Maybe grab something used from the local version of craiglist?

 

[Carmageddon]

No doubt the spoke holes are there.

Yes, that's the kind of generic ebike direct drive motor I was refering to. Typically they will go 20-25 mph on 36v, 25-30 mph on 48v, and on 72v will just touch 40 mph,-60kph.

Won't really do what you want reliably, but will do 60 kph for a short run for sure. The motor speed does depend on the winding, but generally the motor speed is in the range I just stated when laced to 26" rims. To hot rod the motor, you may need to run thicker wires to the hub but that's pretty easy.

Question is, can that get to where you are flying to, when shipped from china in time? You need a vendor that's in the same country as you will be in, so it can get there in time. Or are you going to china? I have no idea where Moldova is. Maybe grab something used from the local version of craiglist?

Yes, the shipping is more expensive than the thing.
I will try to find one locally, but really unsure whether I find anything

 

[wesnewell]

Ok, looking a bit around now that I know what to look for (a bit - cheap, non-geared).
I found this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-500W-for-Rear-Wheel-e-bike-e-bicycle-ebike-electric-bicycle-electric/550848605.html

Is that good for start? it has a lot of specs and yet nothing about top speed... also in the pictures I dont see holes for spokes?

No. It's not enough motor for what you want. This ones about the same price but will give you lots more power and speed.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-1000W-for-Rear-Wheel/448253504.html

 

[John in CR]

Ok, looking a bit around now that I know what to look for (a bit - cheap, non-geared).
I found this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-500W-for-Rear-Wheel-e-bike-e-bicycle-ebike-electric-bicycle-electric/550848605.html

Is that good for start? it has a lot of specs and yet nothing about top speed... also in the pictures I dont see holes for spokes?

No. It's not enough motor for what you want. This ones about the same price but will give you lots more power and speed.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-1000W-for-Rear-Wheel/448253504.html

That thing doesn't even achieve 80% max efficiency according to their own test report, and 24 Nm max torque....what a total piece of crap that motor is. Look at the spindly phase wires...no wonder they only wanted to feed it with 24A. While it might be passable to cruise around at 30kph as an ebike motor, this gentleman wants to get on the highway and do 80kph. LOL!

 

[Carmageddon]

Ok, looking a bit around now that I know what to look for (a bit - cheap, non-geared).
I found this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-500W-for-Rear-Wheel-e-bike-e-bicycle-ebike-electric-bicycle-electric/550848605.html

Is that good for start? it has a lot of specs and yet nothing about top speed... also in the pictures I dont see holes for spokes?

No. It's not enough motor for what you want. This ones about the same price but will give you lots more power and speed.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-Brushless-Hub-Motor-48V-1000W-for-Rear-Wheel/448253504.html

That thing doesn't even achieve 80% max efficiency according to their own test report, and 24 Nm max torque....what a total piece of crap that motor is. Look at the spindly phase wires...no wonder they only wanted to feed it with 24A. While it might be passable to cruise around at 30kph as an ebike motor, this gentleman wants to get on the highway and do 80kph. LOL!

Ok... can you give me an example of specs which I should be looking for then, while there? I still dont understand which of the spec data I should look at to figure out whether it fits the bill even for short 60kph cruising...