New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Hi Narcoleptic, all,

have read your post with great interest as my Tsdz2 36V, 350W motor is also slipping. I'm interested in if you got to the root of the slipping problem.

Please see this short video which shows the slipping problem on my bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_44mkBOOuY

The motor is switched off and it's easy to see that the pedals don't engage the motor a lot of the time. Sometime the pedals slip a few degrees, sometimes they slip for a long time.

PswPower have suggested problem is the Torque Sensor.

Other posts have suggested that the problem is the Sprag Clutch in the Main Gear.

Anyway, thought appreciated!
 
08 2019 10:10pm

Hello,
I'm new to the forum, but have been following the discussion for a while.

I'm ready to purchase a TSDZ2 kit for a build for a family member. I'm planning to get the 48v 750w versions and install the Open Source Firmware. I'm pretty technically proficient and don't mind tinkering, but for the bike I'm building for my mother, I need it to just work, once I have set it up and tuned it.

If it's ok, I have a few questions first.

1) As regards the TSDZ2 motor itself are there more recent revisions, and if so, what should I look for to get the most recent version?

My other questions have mostly to do with which display to order to install the firmware on. As stated earlier I need this to be as stable and user friendly as possible for a non technical family member.

2) What is the current best device for installing the firmware? (I am on a bit of a budget, so would like to avoid the 850c as it is more expensive both for the device and for the bootloader box, which together add well over $100 to the build. However if that is the best option, so be it.)

3) I was going to go with the KT LCD3 as it could be flashed with the same STLink v2 device as the motor and seems to have the most mature firmware, however in reading through the discussion, it seems that the developers are no longer in favor of this device. Is this still a viable option?

4) Will the LCD3 continue to be developed, and what are it's limitations?

5) My other thought was the SW102, as it is smaller and cheaper than the 850c and uses the same STv2 programming cable. Is the Firmware for this device at a stable point?

And a few questions about the motor install itself.

6) I'm installing on a road bike, a specialized carbon frame. Are there any particular problems with installing this more onto a road racing style frame?

7) What are the options for keeping the current double chaining gearing? (Currently 110 bcd cranks.)

8) Lastly, considering we do some touring in Colorado, how well does the motor handle sustained climbing for say an hour or more? What settings would be best for this scenario?

Thanks,
Kyle
 
KWTri said:
08 2019 10:10pm

Hello,
I'm new ... to purchase a TSDZ2 ... 48v 750w version ... OSF ... for my mother, I need it to just work, ... many questions.
Click to expand...

Honestly, the TSDZ2 48V 750W version with a VLCD6 display is a simple to install and go system, and is easy to use reliably, as it is. It is kph only, so you have to multiply the wheel size by 0.62 for the displayed numbers to be MPH.

Relative to a up to date package, the only thing you'll know without opening it, is to ensure that it has the 48V sticker on the bottom of the motor case.

The SW102 display is a work in progress, and I am currently back to using my VLCD6 and the factory TSDZ2 firmware because the current Alpha (0.19.15) is a non-starter and you can't reverse versions without opening the case again to reload from scratch by soldering some wires for the STLink, otherwise it is update-able via bluetooth, which is totally cool. I had fun playing with the prior Alpha (0.19.11), but again, it is a work in progress. Popping the TSDZ2 back and forth between OSF and factory is all of a 5 minute ordeal, OK, maybe 10. (Don't forget to SAVE you TSDZ2 factory Program, Data, and Option memory!!!) FYI, 0.19.13 for the SW102 was going to be redone to allow reverting versions, but I have not heard of any progress.

I don't know about the LCD3, as I only have room for small displays like the VLCD6 and SW102.

Several people have added a second ring to the TSDZ2, but I think I have only seen a few who were able to work out a derailleur due to the geometry. Some change rings manually when needed. I would think that the 750W single ring on a single seat would be sufficient, given sufficient rear gearing, as we are using it on a tandem trike with I8 rear hub with great success (which rules out providing any insight on an upright frame installation).

We are using it on plenty of hills without heat build-up issues, not mountains, so I can't speak to climbing for an hour, but as seen in recent discussions, keeping the cadence high keeps the efficiency up and reduces heat buildup. (Thanks guys for that discussion.)

And yes, I plan to go back to the OSF when a usable/reliable Alpha/Beta (hopefully 0.20 compatible version) for the SW102 is out and tested. I'm dropping back from the bleeding edge for a bit.

Finally, I'm only 2.5 month in on this build, and am not an expert, so, pay more attention to those who are.
 
We are working to make SW102 the easiest display to install the firmware, by Bluetooth and without the need to ever open it (this is possible already, Geeksville developer already have this working but this need more testing).

There is a catch, the original firmware uses a very old Bluetooth firmware inside and will not be possible to use Bluetooth communications for say communicate with a future mobile app. Still with this limitation, SW102 will be the easier display to install our firmware.

To have Bluetooh communications with a future mobile app and with Strava app communication, user will need to open it and update the Bluetooth firmware version - there is no other way for now.
 
KWTri said:
08 2019 10:10pm

1) As regards the TSDZ2 motor itself are there more recent revisions, and if so, what should I look for to get the most recent version?
Click to expand...
Motor revision 1 (2017-2018, 2019?) Straight cut main gear / spur gear, Silver spider, Black spider? Main gear plastic cover has 3 screws, Original weather seals
Motor revision 2 (2018? 2019-) Helical cut main gear / spur gear (should be quieter), Black spider, Main gear plastic cover has 4 screws, Better weather seals

KWTri said:
My other questions have mostly to do with which display to order to install the firmware on. As stated earlier I need this to be as stable and user friendly as possible for a non technical family member.

2) What is the current best device for installing the firmware? (I am on a bit of a budget, so would like to avoid the 850c as it is more expensive both for the device and for the bootloader box, which together add well over $100 to the build. However if that is the best option, so be it.)
Click to expand...
TBH right now it remains the KT LCD3 with STLINK. You can run the latest firmware which is very feature rich and stable (0.20). I don't believe you would need to upgrade again. If you want eventual Strava integration the SW102, but this could be some time.

KWTri said:
4) Will the LCD3 continue to be developed, and what are it's limitations?
Click to expand...
Memory. Currently no s/w limitations, multipoint torque sensor calibration in the future could be missing and new features not yet thought of. The display has great visibility, and seems pretty weather proof.

KWTri said:
5) My other thought was the SW102, as it is smaller and cheaper than the 850c and uses the same STv2 programming cable. Is the Firmware for this device at a stable point?
Click to expand...
No not currently. Wireless flashing still in progress, firmware itself a work in progress.
KWTri said:
And a few questions about the motor install itself.

6) I'm installing on a road bike, a specialized carbon frame. Are there any particular problems with installing this more onto a road racing style frame?
Click to expand...
Yes potentially. Carbon frames will have a lot of material around the bottom bracket. Generally too much to fit the TSDZ2
KWTri said:
8) Lastly, considering we do some touring in Colorado, how well does the motor handle sustained climbing for say an hour or more? What settings would be best for this scenario?
Click to expand...
You would want to limit the power to 200-300 watts unless you do a cooling mod. TBH that is enough it is more than double what a fit person can output themselves
 
I see there’s now a standard TSDZ2 available that has Bluetooth connectivity. A few Europe s sellers on eBay have it.
 
Bartman said:
I see there’s now a standard TSDZ2 available that has Bluetooth connectivity. A few Europe s sellers on eBay have it.
Click to expand...
Can you share a link? I could not find it.
 
casainho

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-36V-250W-VLCD5-TSDZ2-Tongsheng-Mid-Centre-Motor-Kit-E-bike-Pedelec-E-bicycle/263639708579?hash=item3d6226b3a3:g:lHIAAOSwv9NdeM9Y
 
KWTri said:
08 2019 10:10pm

Hello,
I'm new to the forum, but have been following the discussion for a while.

I'm ready to purchase a TSDZ2 kit for a build for a family member. I'm planning to get the 48v 750w versions and install the Open Source Firmware. I'm pretty technically proficient and don't mind tinkering, but for the bike I'm building for my mother, I need it to just work, once I have set it up and tuned it.

If it's ok, I have a few questions first.

1) As regards the TSDZ2 motor itself are there more recent revisions, and if so, what should I look for to get the most recent version?

My other questions have mostly to do with which display to order to install the firmware on. As stated earlier I need this to be as stable and user friendly as possible for a non technical family member.

2) What is the current best device for installing the firmware? (I am on a bit of a budget, so would like to avoid the 850c as it is more expensive both for the device and for the bootloader box, which together add well over $100 to the build. However if that is the best option, so be it.)

3) I was going to go with the KT LCD3 as it could be flashed with the same STLink v2 device as the motor and seems to have the most mature firmware, however in reading through the discussion, it seems that the developers are no longer in favor of this device. Is this still a viable option?

4) Will the LCD3 continue to be developed, and what are it's limitations?

5) My other thought was the SW102, as it is smaller and cheaper than the 850c and uses the same STv2 programming cable. Is the Firmware for this device at a stable point?

And a few questions about the motor install itself.

6) I'm installing on a road bike, a specialized carbon frame. Are there any particular problems with installing this more onto a road racing style frame?

7) What are the options for keeping the current double chaining gearing? (Currently 110 bcd cranks.)

8) Lastly, considering we do some touring in Colorado, how well does the motor handle sustained climbing for say an hour or more? What settings would be best for this scenario?

Thanks,
Kyle
Click to expand...

HI I put double chainrings on. I am using the stock offset steel inner ring then I took a 52 or 53 aluminum ring and trimmed about 1.5mm off the outside mounting tabs. I then put the stack on the inside of the spider. I had to add 1 thin SS washer between the spider and spang clutch, so the chainring nuts clear the plastic cover. I used rtv in place of the o-ring to seal it. Stock derailleur works great.
 

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ri53hu said:
casainho

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-36V-250W-VLCD5-TSDZ2-Tongsheng-Mid-Centre-Motor-Kit-E-bike-Pedelec-E-bicycle/263639708579?hash=item3d6226b3a3:g:lHIAAOSwv9NdeM9Y
Click to expand...
Bluetooth module installation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx1lpLmGJqE
 
ri53hu said:
casainho

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-36V-250W-VLCD5-TSDZ2-Tongsheng-Mid-Centre-Motor-Kit-E-bike-Pedelec-E-bicycle/263639708579?hash=item3d6226b3a3:g:lHIAAOSwv9NdeM9Y
Click to expand...
Would be nice to find photos of the motor controller for this new version. Is the Bluetooth on the motor controller or in the LCD???
 
casainho said:
ri53hu said:
casainho

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-36V-250W-VLCD5-TSDZ2-Tongsheng-Mid-Centre-Motor-Kit-E-bike-Pedelec-E-bicycle/263639708579?hash=item3d6226b3a3:g:lHIAAOSwv9NdeM9Y
Click to expand...
..... Is the Bluetooth on the motor controller or in the LCD???
Click to expand...
Second. Is the bluetooth module original or aftermarket
 
mittkonto said:
My money would be on the sprag clutch. You got some milage on it, so hopefully some grease could help quite a bit, but probably not the whole way.

[youtube]yEOUbnMAnog[/youtube]
Click to expand...

Hi Mittkonto, all

Thanks for your reply and suggestion.

Working on the theory that the sprag gear / bearing is in some way clogged I sprayed it with WD40. Just a squirt. And the problem has gone away completely for now! I'm so happy to be back on my bike. I realize this is a terrible long term solution.

The conclusion I draw are
* the problem is indeed to sprag bearing
* I need to order the main gear from pswpower. I'll order a replacement blue gear while I'm at it.
* I should replace the CSK30P sprag bearing in current main gear with one with a better seal and keep as a spare
* I need to seal the mechanism where the motor axel meets the sprag bearing as is too exposed to water

A few final points for posterity
* the problem got much worse after a few days cycling in torrential rain
* after 3000km (3 or 4 months moderate commuter use) I'm not too upset and have learned a lot from other folks posts

The tsdz2 is a fantastic motor - I'd recommend it to anybody fairly handy with a spanner. Smooth, powerful and generally hassle free. I've used mine to do around 30km / day in hilly terrain and wet weather and this was the only issue. I know other stuff will go wrong but having found this excellent forum I'll know where to go for answers!

Thanks for sharing expertise.

Anthony
 
omg! I need to order one. Wonder if other suppliers have them

Feature:
1, Easy installation, applicable to most normal bicycles
2, Max Torque about 80N.m, strong ramp-climbing ability
3, Internal controller + axial torque sensor (genuine two-sided torque)
4, Compact size and elegant shape, weight about 3.6 kg
5, Comfortable ride, high efficiency, less battery consumption and longer range
6, Safe, reliable and excellent performance
7, Can be connected to the Bluetooth meter directly to use APP.


Main parameters:
1, Maximum power: 350W
2, Maximum torque: 80N.m
3, Power assist ratio: 36% -300%
4, Speed limit: 25 km / h (The speed limit can be set by the instrument up to 45 km / h)
5, Rated voltage: 36V / 24V / 48V
6, Instrument program: Version 4.1 (version 3.7 before)
7, Controller: 32 bit (8 bit before)
8, Sensor: CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
9, TSDZ2-NEW Additional configuration: With Bluetooth, With headlight function, With Bluetooth module

What does "CGQ8 double head" mean? Better torque sensor?

Also I just ordered 2x SW102's. I don't mind doing the "crack it open and solder" mod, but is there an issue of it not working with the motor properly? I haven't been following as I have full-time school though I am trying to get to it.

I also put a double on my recumbent but it's kind of cheating since the long chain means chainline issues aren't a problem.
 
Aquakitty said:
omg! I need to order one. Wonder if other suppliers have them
Click to expand...
Yes, indeed interesting!

Been out with the rake this morn on the interwebs, however my searchfoo maybe isn't as strong it used to be, I could only find the already mentioned fleabay-source.
 
Aquakitty said:
omg! I need to order one. Wonder if other suppliers have them

Feature:
1, Easy installation, applicable to most normal bicycles
2, Max Torque about 80N.m, strong ramp-climbing ability
3, Internal controller + axial torque sensor (genuine two-sided torque)
4, Compact size and elegant shape, weight about 3.6 kg
5, Comfortable ride, high efficiency, less battery consumption and longer range
6, Safe, reliable and excellent performance
7, Can be connected to the Bluetooth meter directly to use APP.


Main parameters:
1, Maximum power: 350W
2, Maximum torque: 80N.m
3, Power assist ratio: 36% -300%
4, Speed limit: 25 km / h (The speed limit can be set by the instrument up to 45 km / h)
5, Rated voltage: 36V / 24V / 48V
6, Instrument program: Version 4.1 (version 3.7 before)
7, Controller: 32 bit (8 bit before)
8, Sensor: CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
9, TSDZ2-NEW Additional configuration: With Bluetooth, With headlight function, With Bluetooth module

What does "CGQ8 double head" mean? Better torque sensor?

Also I just ordered 2x SW102's. I don't mind doing the "crack it open and solder" mod, but is there an issue of it not working with the motor properly? I haven't been following as I have full-time school though I am trying to get to it.

I also put a double on my recumbent but it's kind of cheating since the long chain means chainline issues aren't a problem.
Click to expand...
So, this new version seem to be equal from the outside (motor case and display). The Maximum torque: 80N.m is the same value as previous motor version. The max motor power is rated at the same 350W. So, I bet they did not change the motor, the gears, power cables.

What seems different are the:
- Torque sensor: axial torque sensor (genuine two-sided torque), CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
- Bluetooth: Additional configuration: With Bluetooth, With headlight function, With Bluetooth module
- Controller: 32 bit (8 bit before)

I would say they wanted to add Bluetooth to keep update with big brands ebike motors. As they also say they changed the microcontroller from 8 bits to 32 bits, I would say they did redesign only the motor controller to accommodate the Bluetooth. Since the previous STM8 8 bits microcontroller had only 16 kbytes flash memory to run the original firmware and was mostly full, there would be no space to add Bluetooth communications and configurations. I bet they added the new microcontroller with more memory, because was needed to add Bluetooth.
What could be the microcontroller? I hope it is a STM32 which is very popular for motor controller (like used on electric unicycles, hoverboards, electric scooters) and is very easy to program and develop firmware. Or maybe they went with the NRF5 microcontroller that is used on SW102 display, that would give Bluetooth as also the motor control (although risky here because Blueooth has higher priority and could compromise the motor control).

If anyone find a link for buying this new motor controller, or pictures, I would like to see it. Thank you.
 
casainho said:
Aquakitty said:
omg! I need to order one. Wonder if other suppliers have them

Feature:
1, Easy installation, applicable to most normal bicycles
2, Max Torque about 80N.m, strong ramp-climbing ability
3, Internal controller + axial torque sensor (genuine two-sided torque)
4, Compact size and elegant shape, weight about 3.6 kg
5, Comfortable ride, high efficiency, less battery consumption and longer range
6, Safe, reliable and excellent performance
7, Can be connected to the Bluetooth meter directly to use APP.


Main parameters:
1, Maximum power: 350W
2, Maximum torque: 80N.m
3, Power assist ratio: 36% -300%
4, Speed limit: 25 km / h (The speed limit can be set by the instrument up to 45 km / h)
5, Rated voltage: 36V / 24V / 48V
6, Instrument program: Version 4.1 (version 3.7 before)
7, Controller: 32 bit (8 bit before)
8, Sensor: CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
9, TSDZ2-NEW Additional configuration: With Bluetooth, With headlight function, With Bluetooth module

What does "CGQ8 double head" mean? Better torque sensor?

Also I just ordered 2x SW102's. I don't mind doing the "crack it open and solder" mod, but is there an issue of it not working with the motor properly? I haven't been following as I have full-time school though I am trying to get to it.

I also put a double on my recumbent but it's kind of cheating since the long chain means chainline issues aren't a problem.
Click to expand...
So, this new version seem to be equal from the outside (motor case and display). The Maximum torque: 80N.m is the same value as previous motor version. The max motor power is rated at the same 350W. So, I bet they did not change the motor, the gears, power cables.

What seems different are the:
- Torque sensor: axial torque sensor (genuine two-sided torque), CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
- Bluetooth: Additional configuration: With Bluetooth, With headlight function, With Bluetooth module
- Controller: 32 bit (8 bit before)

I would say they wanted to add Bluetooth to keep update with big brands ebike motors. As they also say they changed the microcontroller from 8 bits to 32 bits, I would say they did redesign only the motor controller to accommodate the Bluetooth. Since the previous STM8 8 bits microcontroller had only 16 kbytes flash memory to run the original firmware and was mostly full, there would be no space to add Bluetooth communications and configurations. I bet they added the new microcontroller with more memory, because was needed to add Bluetooth.
What could be the microcontroller? I hope it is a STM32 which is very popular for motor controller (like used on electric unicycles, hoverboards, electric scooters) and is very easy to program and develop firmware. Or maybe they went with the NRF5 microcontroller that is used on SW102 display, that would give Bluetooth as also the motor control (although risky here because Blueooth has higher priority and could compromise the motor control).

If anyone find a link for buying this new motor controller, or pictures, I would like to see it. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I asked the ebay selle abou the app:
"The APP name is "My e-bike", I attach a photo"

The app can be found in Apple App Store My e-bike by 苏州同盛动力科技有限公司
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/my-e-bike/id1459342730
It is nice.
 
Nfer said:
I asked the ebay selle abou the app:
"The APP name is "My e-bike", I attach a photo"

The app can be found in Apple App Store My e-bike by 苏州同盛动力科技有限公司
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/my-e-bike/id1459342730
It is nice.
Click to expand...
Good!!

Maybe you can also ask if is possible to buy the new motor controller and if he can send you pictures, just like we can do for current motor controller.
 
casainho said:
Nfer said:
I asked the ebay selle abou the app:
"The APP name is "My e-bike", I attach a photo"

The app can be found in Apple App Store My e-bike by 苏州同盛动力科技有限公司
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/my-e-bike/id1459342730
It is nice.
Click to expand...
Good!!

Maybe you can also ask if is possible to buy the new motor controller and if he can send you pictures, just like we can do for current motor controller.
Click to expand...

Done. I will let you know if they sell the controller
 
Aquakitty said:
.......
8, Sensor: CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
.....
[/i]
What does "CGQ8 double head" mean? Better torque sensor?
...
Click to expand...
It looks that to me that CGQ7 is the speedsensor CGQS7 (I have seen the "S" difference).
CGQ8 looks the new one. IMHO nothing to do with torque.
On the Tongsheng site I found not yet something with bluetooth
 
Looking into that "My E-Bike" app this seems to be the data being communicated with bluetooth from controller:
Code: 
@interface EBBTDataModel : NSObject
{
    NSString *_batteryLockStatus;
    NSString *_kmMileType;
    NSString *_pushStatus;
    NSString *_lightStatus;
    long long _gearPosition;
    long long _currentGear;
    NSString *_speed;
    NSString *_Trip;
    NSString *_ODO;
    NSString *_errorCode;
    NSString *_electricCurrent;
    NSString *_batteryTemperature;
    NSString *_totalVoltage;
    NSString *_relativeCapacity;
    NSString *_absoluteCapacity;
    NSString *_remaingCapacity;
    NSString *_fullPower;
    NSString *_cycles;
    NSString *_batteryInfoPermission;
    NSString *_chargInterval;
    NSString *_remainMileage;
    NSString *_cal;
    NSString *_cadence;
    NSString *_torque;
    NSString *_torsion;
    NSString *_torqueMAX;
    NSString *_batteryPower;
    NSString *_wheel;
    NSString *_maxSpeed;
}

The batterylockstatus seems interesting. I wonder if they just used a general profile or if they are planning on adding communication with battery module?
 
Elinx said:
Aquakitty said:
.......
8, Sensor: CGQ8 double head (CGQ7 before)
.....
[/i]
What does "CGQ8 double head" mean? Better torque sensor?
...
Click to expand...
It looks that to me that CGQ7 is the speedsensor CGQS7 (I have seen the "S" difference).
CGQ8 looks the new one. IMHO nothing to do with torque.
On the Tongsheng site I found not yet something with bluetooth
Click to expand...

Oh good find, I didn't think of the speed sensor. Wonder why they changed it? Something to do with bluetooth I suppose.
 
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