New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[jeff.page.rides]

Thank you for that. I have a 250/350W 36v motor I actually rarely use the high gear now after I heard that slipping sort of grinding sound. It seems to only occur when I'm going pretty fast in a higher ger (6 or 7) with higher torque especially while going up a hill. Would you recommend I check the blue gear even if this is basically brand new? I heard it the sound and the slippage I described the first time I took it out for a ride and I was trying to cruise along in 7th gear to see how fast it went.

I'll start on a lower torque while taking off from the stoplights as you mentioned.

The sound you hear is most likely the one-way bearing in the blue gear. Just like all the parts, the quality is not consistent. It can be larger than should be bearing, and or the motor shaft could be smaller. It turns up most of the time when there is too much torque, like riding or trying to take off in too high of a gear. I watch Candance and stay above 60 on a light load and 80 on a heavy load.

Thank you for your assessment of my issue. You wouldn't believe it. Or maybe you will. I don't know much about bikes and I tried to do everything by myself with this 90's bike with old broken components. I finally decided to take it to a local expert down the street at my LBS. I told him about my indexing issues. I couldn't get it just right and it was really frustrating. It turns out there was a little ferule wedged into the rear deraiuller. I thought it was a part of the derailleur but it turns out it was just an old one. I was using that with another feurle. He told me that you want to reduce the amount of these things to improve shifting. He removed the ferule, helped me fine tune the indexing and now the shifting is working as normal. I'm not getting any slipping on the chain or anything like that anymore. So I'm thinking the motor and blue gear are just fine. It's amazing the things you learn IRL :lol:

Next, I noticed that my motor is now in the bottom bracket as firmly as I thought. I can wiggle it up and down very easily with my hands. I realized that perhaps the M33 nut is not as tight as it could be. Perhaps tightening this will improve it and I guess that's the first thing I should try. I think it's time to just buy a crank removal tool.

If the large nut that holds the motor in if it is not completely tightened the case can crack. I hit the wrench hard with a rubber or dead blow hammer.

 

[hetm4n]

Hi. I bought a new SW102, a similar display came to the old version, this is marked as DM03. Has anyone tried to program it?

 

[jgs1]

I have 6 Tsdz2 built on various frames over the last 18 months for family bike rides over the Welsh mountains , quite a few niggles as can be expected .
I found one that nobody seems to have mentioned
The speed Reducing Gear Shaft bearing that hold the nylon gear ( the 6001 rs bearing secured with a circlip ) , I've swapped out 2 of these so far , one got water in and the bike sounded like a cheese grater , another leaking it's lubricant beneath the blue gear ( only a few months old )
Each time I put in a Dunlop 6001-2RS replacement , these fit tighter/ better onto the shaft and make the motors quieter than ever before ,
I think the original bearings used here are not very good .
I'm replacing all of them now , so much quieter

 

[terragady]

I have no idea why don't they fix so many problems with that motor. It will be almost no higher cost. Second thought is that probably for 50$ more they could build much more robust system. I wonder why no manufacturer did that? Especially in china where they copy everything from anyone. I would Pay 50-100$ more to have more reliable motor with better parts and maybe some better designs and they do not really have to put any R&D into this as most of it is freely available on the internet from enthusiasts. They really should cooperate with people for mechanical and software. Such a pity that there is no direct competitor, I know CYC but much more expensive and not really that good except they use better parts.

Is there any rumors for TSDZ3 or something similar? I need to buy 2 of them soonish, can wait to the winter. I was really satisfied with old tsdz2 but gave up after many problems.

 

[Elinx]

......
I think the original bearings used here are not very good .
....

Replacing all bearings for better quality, included the spragclutch bearing and insert two extra bearings on the outer side of the circlip grooves, for better spindle support, will improve the durability of the tsdz2, but the weaker materials, tolerances and torqesensor will be te same.

.... Such a pity that there is no direct competitor, .....

Is there any rumors for TSDZ3 or something similar? .....

Only Bafang BBSxx is a competitor with a better mechanical quality, but is missing torque sensing.
For aftermarket mount has Tongsheng only the tsdz2, but if you read a bit back you will find that there will be a Tsdz2B with some small mechanical improvements.

 

[jgs1]

The quality of the TSDZ2 bearings is very inconsistent as some seem to be much better quality than others ( from same manufacturer ) not all the 6001-2rs bearings in my motor's have play in them
poor Q/C , no-one must have checked them
probably good enough for a 12 month guarantee
pay's your money and takes your chance

 

[skestans]

Some lowlife scum stole the lights off both ebikes last night. Therefore, we need new ones.

What’s the current preferred wired in lights that work with the TSDZ2?

Budget is about 150 eur for front and back lights per bike. They need to be visible during the day too. We had light and motion urban and cygolite hotshot.

Is there a setting to disable display dimming while lights are on?

 

[terragady]

Only Bafang BBSxx is a competitor with a better mechanical quality, but is missing torque sensing.
For aftermarket mount has Tongsheng only the tsdz2, but if you read a bit back you will find that there will be a Tsdz2B with some small mechanical improvements.

Yes for me torque sensor is a must, I want a bike feeling when riding a bike
Yes I saw TSDZ2B is available already for ordering and that gratefully it still has old controller capable of flashing open firmware. I do not see many changes there, just minor cosmetics inside, maybe even cost reducing ones as everything is getting more expensive.

 

[endlessolli]

Yes for me torque sensor is a must, I want a bike feeling when riding a bike
Yes I saw TSDZ2B is available already for ordering and that gratefully it still has old controller capable of flashing open firmware. I do not see many changes there, just minor cosmetics inside, maybe even cost reducing ones as everything is getting more expensive.

Or maybe its because of this lawsuit w/ Bafang? The new outer spragclutch makes the one in the blue gear redundant and the inner one should be similar to the old version. Both should engage in opposite directions, if I am not mistaken.
(I still worry about how sturdy this double clutch is..) A friend of mine has ordered a B Version on PSW; hopefully, also that one comes w/ the old controller…
I‘ll report back when I know.

 

[endlessolli]

.....
There is more info about compatibility between TDSDZ2 and TSDZ2B on this Aliexpress dealer's page.....

:thumb:

.....
- What are the benefits of TSDZ2B? When this new spragclutch brakes - then what? It is not a generic part like the CK30P. Also - in which flavors does this B Version come? IFX µcontroller? ST one? Random?

We only can know this if someone give feedback of this Tsdz2B.
From the description of AliExpress it looks only a mechanical update, but with Tongsheng you can always expect some other surprises too. We have to be patient.

EDIT: 23 juli 2022
Fortunately, our patience was not tested for long, because there is a confirmation from tr8, that the controller still is the same inside the new Tsdz2B from PSWPower, so it it still flashable.
Also the rubber dustseal has the same size, so you can replace it for a 6902 bearing for more support of the spindle on the other side of the circlip groove.

Tsdz2B newclutch_.jpg

So, a freind just got his TSDZ2B: I can confirm that PSW ships TSDZ2 with 'old' ST based (-> programmable) controller.

I also had a closer look at the new sprag clutch setup:
There are now 2 concentric spragclutches and each engages in the opposite direction of the other. As the chainring is fastened in the middle of the 2', either the motor or the pedals drive the chainring. Therefor the spragclutch in the blue gear should be either gone or is redundant. (I cloud not check, as this is a friends motor and I did not want to tear the 'warranty sticker'

Another interesting thing is that the 2 spragclutches seem to be (laser?) welded to the big gear. So hopefully, they offer that complete unit as a replacement, as these are no more std. parts.... Also, the inner sprag clutch is slightly smaller in diameter compared to the old CSK30 one. Hopefully, this does not reduce the lifetime further, as this was already 'the weakest link' in the setup. Surprisingly, the lateral play of the chainring is not more than in the old 1 cluthch setup.

 

[terragady]

maybe it costs less for them to produce their own instead of buying the one which they used previously or there is supply shortage, it is definitely beneficial for them not end customer as always. There is also no direct competitor in this class which is bad and does not push improvements and developments.

 

[stratohunter]

My brass gear was destroyed in about 1000 km, I wonder if this happened to anyone else before?

I'm running a 36V motor with a 52V battery, and I improved the cooling structure this April so I could run the motor constantly at 850w since then. I cruise at 40+ km/h in most conditions and when there is uphill or headwind the motor is at full power with a 100+ rpm cadence. Is this too much for the brass gear to take? Or could the grease be improper to be used on this gear? I've attached images for the ruined gear and the grease below.

 

[skestans]

Yes that’s probably a bit extreme for that motor. I run mine with at 25kmh cutoff in a very hilly area and keep a cadence in the 90s, I have yet to do anything about the glue gear after about 2500km.

I’d either slow down or accept that you’ll have to replace the gear often.

 

[jbalat]

You are kidding right ?
If you are using this motor at more than 300w for any length of time then you have chosen the wrong motor. My average power is 160w.
You may want to look at the crystallite X5404 which can run at 3+ Kw all day long and is built like a brick, otherwise have a look at those new 2wd scooters that can do over 70kms per hr. The TSDZ2 is not meant for this.

 

[terragady]

X5404 is a HUB motor, for extremes and mid drive is a CYC.

 

[jbalat]

X5404 is a HUB motor, for extremes and mid drive is a CYC.

I thought we were talking about reliability ? You will never have to worry about breaking anything in the x5404

 

[mctubster]

Just an aside ... still rocking a TSDZ2 in one cargo bike, Bosch CX in other cargo bike ... there is a very interesting new type of motor that is being released, mechanically looks very interesting https://bikerumor.com/tq-hpr50-ebike-motor-harmonic-pin-ring-transmission/

Cheers

 

[terragady]

but this is not a DIY kit but motor for special frame and I have seen it multiple times in recent days, looks like crypto marketing but I do not know

 

[stratohunter]

Yeah I agree that a CYC mid drive or an additional hub motor is a better choice for me. Was just experimenting with the tsdz2 to see whether it would make it to perform like a real 750w motor and now the conclusion is yes, but with suffering reliability. Satisfied though.

FYI I posted my temperature control solution here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=102046&start=200

 

[Retrorockit]

I've come across another option for the blue gear replacement. PEEK plastic gears.
https://cycles.eco/products/peek-gear-for-tsdz2?_pos=7&_sid=49182e5d3&_ss=r
I first came across these as an upgrade for the BBSHD nylon gear. I put one in mine and it retains the silent running of that motor. I believe they're made in Germany and have German roller clutches. The price is another matter. I could see a high grade of modern plastic being stronger than ancient brass technology. I suspect the gear destruction issue has more to do with cheap bearings and sloppy machine work than the strength of the gear.
Luna has more info, and a better price on their PEEK part for the BBSHD.
https://lunacycle.com/bbshd-silent-peek-gear-nylon-gear-replacement/

As far as Lube goes the BBSHD guys swear by Mobilgrease 28. This is an aircarft service lubricant with a mid step viscosity of 1.5
Shell makes an interchangeable Aeroshell product that would probably be easier to find in EU. Not sure what number.

 

[gfmoore]

Wow, only one hundred dollars... :lol:

 

[Retrorockit]

$55 for the much bigger BBSHD part. I would shop around.

 

[stratohunter]

Running into new problems following the pulverized brass gear. I cleaned everything up and put the blue plastic gear back, testing out its input power was reaching 140w spinning with empty load. Normally this should be within 50w as I measured before, by removing the chain and hitting throttle to make the motor spin at full rpm so the motor was really running on nothing.

I was doubting a short circuit in the winding somewhere, so I disassembled the inside motor and greased the exposing windings with dielectric grease and put it back, only to find myself making the matter worse. The no-load full-speed power reached an astounding 280w. And I'm pretty sure this watt reading was correct since the motor got really hot. The noise sounded normal and the run was smooth.

Looks like a short circuit but I couldn't find it. Probably the debris of the gear somehow got into the windings but the inside looks clean. Has anyone tried rewinding this motor? Or could this be caused by something else? Thanks in advance.

 

[Elinx]

... Or could this be caused by something else?

Maybe demagnetized rotor, caused by heat in the first place and resulting in less efficiency and because of that again more heat.

 

[BeachRider]

I'm trying to find a 24"/26" e mountain bike for my son and having little luck (I've seen Commencal and another company have them, but no luck with stock), so I am contemplating turning one of the 24/26 enduro bikes in our quiver into an e assist bike. This mid drive motor really seems to be the right fit, the torque sensor and the ability to control via deeper menus things like top speed will be good for a younger rider on mountain bike trails.

I see lots of good info here and I know I am in for a bit of customization such as the BSBF1 stabilizer bar to fix the motor to the downtube as opposed to chainstays (which move on a FS frame) so am looking for ways to minimize custom work. I think I will buy a pre-flashed OSF motor kit from someone like Electrify Bike, are there others I should consider? Also, with a lighter rider (11 year old, less than 100 pounds), I wonder if I will need to do the thermal mods? Although he is light, enduro riding is often pretty intense uphills (2k feet of climbing, then ride down) with no let up, so maybe that is a good thing to do. Any other advice for this type of application? I build and maintain all bikes in this house and am also in the tech industry so can probably do much of the work if required, but for the flashing, I would love to skip that step