Phasor Cycles/ Recumpence drive collaboration

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Hey Guys,

I will be sending him a 5 turn 3220 drive (14,000 watt peak, 6,000 watt continuous) fan cooled system to start with...... Eventually he will be running a twin 3220 system. Should be NUTS!

Matt

The purpose of the development of the 4535 was to deliver the same quality and reliability of our 32XX motors, but at nearly 4x the power. Starting at the core of the motor, the 4535 uses the highest grade of sintered samarium-cobalt magnet. Unlike hobby grade neodymium magnets, these samarium-cobalt magnets are able to withstand high operating temperatures without losing magnetic strength or experiencing permanent demagnetization. Ultra-thin laminations are used in the stator to ensure minimal iron losses and maximize efficiency. All components of the motor are rated to at least 200°C to handle high continuous and burst power.

Would it make sense to use a single shortened 4535 (something like a 4520 or so) instead of a dual 3220's? Similar power. Much more compact, which might be easier to incorporate in an aesthetically pleasing way into an ebike frame or a Motoped? Total price might be similar, I think that a shorter version of a 4535 would be expensive, but maybe similar to one of your dual drive units?

 

[recumpence]

Actually the cost would be far higher for the 45 series motor versus two 3220s. That being said, the reason for running this setup is because I have it in hand, it works well, and it is well understood by me.

Matt

 

[recumpence]

The drive has been shipped to Phasor. David should have it in hand Saturday or Monday. This is a new style drive unit. I have not shown any pictures of it yet. This is the direction my drives are moving in.

This should be fun!

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

The drive has been shipped to Phasor. David should have it in hand Saturday or Monday. This is a new style drive unit. I have not shown any pictures of it yet.

Matt

Why not show some pictures?

 

[madin88]

hands up for some pictures of the drive and frame

Matt, what controller are you using with this Astro motors and do they have hall sensors? mhm is it still the Castle Phoenix or someting better (with better i mean more smooth throttle control)?

 

[macribs]

I too vote for pictures of both drive unit and frame. Or even sketches just to get by on until completed.

 

[recumpence]

hands up for some pictures of the drive and frame

Matt, what controller are you using with this Astro motors and do they have hall sensors? mhm is it still the Castle Phoenix or someting better (with better i mean more smooth throttle control)?

The Castle Edge 160. I am working on a sensored solution. But, for now, the Edge has been phenomenal. I also sent David an adjustable throttle interface. That allows the throttle end point to be adjusted with a simple potentiometer. When setting the throttle lower, the output power also drops. Beyond that, I also programmed his controller with a somewhat soft throttle response. These two things should make his system much more controllable rather than the top fuel explosiveness this system is capable of. His drive also has one of my mechanical torque limiters. So, he can set it to slip if he prefers.

I had not posted any pictures of the drive yet because this is the first of this version I have yet assembled. I took a couple pics with my phone. I will see if I can upload the from there.

Matt

 

[recumpence]

I figured out how to move pictures from my phone to the photo editing software on my Mac. So, here are pictures of the new drive unit.

This is a compilation of a number of design features I have dabbled with over the years.

Basically, it is a simple flat plate design similar to my V4 drive. However, the face plate went from less than 1/2 inch thick to 5/8 thick along with being far wider. Next, it has provision for an idler wheel [as shown]. The idler wheel gives greater belt wrap around the small motor pulley to eliminate belt skip under super high loads. The motor plate is also longer. This allows a HUGE secondary pulley to be fitted for extremely high RPM motor to large rear wheel combinations. Lastly, this new drive uses a simple adjustment screw to adjust belt tension. This is something the V4 drive has needed for some time. But, there were issues implementing it. This new drive has enough material in the motor plate to allow the adjustment screw to fit.

As I mentioned in my previous post, this is the very first drive of this layout I have sold. I have a box of them in stock, ready to build, however. Also, my normal V4 drive uses the same mount "Foot". So, either drive should fit David's frame.

Enjoy!

Matt

 

[ohzee]

That looks sweet. So much power in such a small footprint.
I look forward to what comes next.

I love dropbox just for the way it auto uploads pictures I take on my iphone and I can get them on any pc I have dropbox installed.
Highly recommend and it's free. I use a mac & windows box both work just as good.

 

[madin88]

it looks awesome Matt cant wait to see it on the frame..
the slipping clutch is a nice feature for sure. A FOC controller with real torque control would be good for your drive system, but i guess such controller capeable of those high ERPM levels needed for the astro motors is by no not available. Needs to be developed with all speed^^

 

[morati]

This ones going to be a keeper for sure! Matt, are you and David going to offer these for sale to the public after the bugs have been worked out?

 

[recumpence]

That's the hope.

Matt

 

[morati]

I have to agree with Mr. Holmes here......This project deserves a sensored motor when time allows.

 

[recumpence]

David has the drive in his hands. He and I have been going back and forth by PM. He should be posting pictures soon.

Matt

 

[dpearce]

I received the drive unit, what an awesome piece of machinery. It is in the works, and I will post anything here as it comes. Any input from the ES community is appreciated and will be taken into consideration, although not necessarily implemented, but if there is something you would like to see let us know here and now!

 

[tomaj]

Looks great
Where did you get the sprocket spider which is on the photo? I need one urgent

 

[macribs]

Was this not supposed to be a dual drive?

What will be the price point of this drive unit?
Price drive unit only and price drive unit astro 3220 combo pls.

 

[Rodney64]

Will this drive work with any controller that's sensored. The mini-e controller will work either sensored or sensorless. After running a min-e controller I wouldn't go back to an infinion controller and cycle analyst.

 

[madin88]

Sensorless mode with Adaptto controllers does not work well because its only for emergency use that you do not have to pedal or wheel the bike home if a hall sensor dies. Im not sure if this can be improved with future firmware, though it would be nice..

 

[morati]

I'd like to see a tapered headtube as well. This is the direction bike manufacturers are headed anyways so might as well jump on the bandwagon now. Makes for a stronger stiffer front end and allows the use of the latest front forks (DVO Emerald comes to mind). The best bike should have the best components.....

 

[macribs]

Will this drive work with any controller that's sensored. The mini-e controller will work either sensored or sensorless. After running a min-e controller I wouldn't go back to an infinion controller and cycle analyst.

AFAIK those Astro 3220 motors ship without Hall sensors. Matt might be able to do a custom version with Hall included.
If not you can retrofit hall sensors to motors.

Adding sensors would let you run Adaptto controller. Might need to use some RC firmware for controller.

I'd like to see a tapered headtube as well. This is the direction bike manufacturers are headed anyways so might as well jump on the bandwagon now. Makes for a stronger stiffer front end and allows the use of the latest front forks (DVO Emerald comes to mind). The best bike should have the best components.....

Wouldn't that be solved with a reducer headset?
What is the real advantages of having a tapered headtube?
All I can see is that the choice of possible forks will be very slim compared to standard headtube.

 

[recumpence]

A couple things here;

#1 This system is roughly $2,000. That price will go up or down a touch depending on specific configuration.
#2 A twin motor system would be $3,000. Twin motors is totaly crazy, but a lot of fun for someone with dirt bike experience who can use that much crazy power.
#3 Sensors are something we are working on. It is difficult to implement on some motors. These 8 pole motors run up to 15,000 RPM depending on the KV. Many controllers struggle with that. We are working on it, though. First things first. We have our hands full right now. Also, it is amazing how well these sensorless systems run and how efficient they are. Sensors will come in time. But, that time many be months yet. We are working on it.
#4 Tapered head tubes are great for 29 inch forks. It is a good direction to go for that application. There are benefits and drawbacks to everything. The frame configuration portion of this project is up to David. So, that would be his call.

Lastly, I understand David's frames are most well known by the hub motor crowd. Yet, my systems are most well known by the non-hub crowd. So, this system marriage will take some re-education on both sides of this. I can tell you there are only a couple minor negatives to using these sensorless controllers, and many benefits. Also, my systems are completely different. It is kind of like comparing a piston engine to a rotary--- Each has its specific characteristics that lend each design some specific traits./

Matt

 

[panurge]

Awesome work as usual, waiting keen to see the vehicle that suit this drive .... 8)

dding sensors would let you run Adaptto controller. Might need to use some RC firmware for controller.

How many e-rpm an Adaptto is able to manage?

 

[morati]

"Wouldn't that be solved with a reducer headset?
What is the real advantages of having a tapered headtube?
All I can see is that the choice of possible forks will be very slim compared to standard headtube."

Ever ovalized a standard headtube? I have and the frame is basically garbage after this happens. More surface area for the lower bearing is always better IMO anyways and since manufacturers are now making all high end bikes with tapered headtubes, fork manufacturers will be forced to follow suit and standard non tapered forks will go the way of the dinosaur (just like the 26" wheel I'm afraid).

 

[macribs]

Matt what are the length of the new drive unit as seen on the pics, with one motor?