Pikes Peak, Electric Mountain Climbers...

[neptronix]

You know, the only things i notice about the higher altitude is that my cars lost a bunch of their power. They also sell 2 octane lower here for cars. So instead of 87 octane being normal, you get 85 octane. Something about there being less oxygen here, so the extra octane is a waste of money..

That and it is hard as hell to cook some things. I'm still trying to get the hang of it. The properties of boiling water are quite different. And on top of that it is extremely dry here too. I drink about 2 times the water i normally would in the pacific northwest and have had to actually start wearing chapstick.

On the upside it is almost impossible to get a sweat going.
It is kinda like being on another planet, it is so weird.

As for the bike performance, i am not sure yet. It seems like when i'm going 30mph, the air is buffeting my hair a lot less out here. I do wonder if aerodynamic properties are different here. Could be!

Um and as for drafting, it helps a hell of a lot when we're talking about aerodynamics. In another thread i mentioned some ladies in lycra drafting me and later telling me it was exhilarating because they had never cycled that fast before ( 26mph )

I do draft semi trucks in my car ( not recommended lol ) because it can drastically increase my fuel economy if i'm on a long trip. Try it some time. It is not hard to notice that if you hit the accelerator a bit, it feels like the car has more power than normal. That right there is the indication that your car has power freed up that it was normally using just to push through the air.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

You know, the only things i notice about the higher altitude is that my cars lost a bunch of their power. They also sell 2 octane lower here for cars. So instead of 87 octane being normal, you get 85 octane. Something about there being less oxygen here, so the extra octane is a waste of money..

That and it is hard as hell to cook some things. I'm still trying to get the hang of it. The properties of boiling water are quite different. And on top of that it is extremely dry here too. I drink about 2 times the water i normally would in the pacific northwest and have had to actually start wearing chapstick.

On the upside it is almost impossible to get a sweat going.
It is kinda like being on another planet, it is so weird.

As for the bike performance, i am not sure yet. It seems like when i'm going 30mph, the air is buffeting my hair a lot less out here. I do wonder if aerodynamic properties are different here. Could be!

Um and as for drafting, it helps a hell of a lot when we're talking about aerodynamics. In another thread i mentioned some ladies in lycra drafting me and later telling me it was exhilarating because they had never cycled that fast before ( 26mph )

I do draft semi trucks in my car ( not recommended lol ) because it can drastically increase my fuel economy if i'm on a long trip. Try it some time. It is not hard to notice that if you hit the accelerator a bit, it feels like the car has more power than normal. That right there is the indication that your car has power freed up that it was normally using just to push through the air.

Man! My brother did that on a MOTORCYCLE! And then talked about being sleepy doing this on long trips! :lol: :lol:


When did this thread get so exciting! I'm so happy there is renewed interest in Pike's Peak!!

I would love to help out someone do this if I am not able to go myself, I really think this is a great venue to display E-Bikes more than any other even I have heard yet!

Go ES!!

 

[Martin A]

As far as I understand, drafting benefits the leader as there is less drag due to another physical mass filling the space that would otherwise have to be 'filled in' by the air, which has been moved by the passage of the lead rider, returning to fill the lower pressure area behind them.

Hope this helps

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe I'm confused about the drafting, and thinking aobut how it is if the leader is stuck with leading the whole way. Then he gets to the last 500m tired while the wheelsucker has a nice sprint left in his legs.

So even if two riders do go faster than one, refuse to do any leading and your motor will do less work. We are talking about speeds where it matters for sure, above 20 mph. The more riders sharing the load the better. The idea though, is make team opti do the work, and tag along in back using thier hole in the wind and avoiding them crashing you out. As seen, starting last in the group of ebikes may be a good idea. You'll be having the power to catch em in the first mile.

Whether the motor will lose it's cooling efficiency as you near the top will depend on the weather. There will be a hell of a lot less molecules of it up there for sure. Above 10,000 ft, forget pedaling up much power. Wind could increase enough to cool the motor more, while at the same time making it work hard enough to really overheat. Or you could have a tailwind that nearly eliminates good wind cooling. If it starts to rain, you stop worrying since you have water cooling now. So hard to really predict. Just have to ride the thermometer, and back off watts if you start heading to a too high equilibrium temp. Even at high altitude though, it will help some that the temp drops. Above 90f at 4000 ft, that's where I see motors get really hot even when only running 1500w.

 

[TylerDurden]

Drafting is for the weak. (Jesse Ventura)

I'm with John... pack enough heat to run 'em over, back up and run 'em over again.

 

[veloman]

I don't think the front rider would notice any benefit. I'm sure it's there, but like I said, when riding in pacelines, it felt the same as being by myself.


Drafting trucks on the highway should be a big boost for mpg. It depends on your vehicle though. My civic is quite aero and I have to be really close to feel the benefit. If I sit 2 seconds back (the law), I just get buffetted and that sucks, and the view sucks staring at the back of truck. Plus you will eventually get stones kicked up on the windshield. When I drove my friends SUV, it definitely took less throttle to sit behind a truck on the highway.


I once drafted my friends Geo Tracker, while on my road bicycle, at 70mph down a hill. I was 17 and it was the most exhilerating experience of my life. My legs were at 200rpms and I was catching air off the cracks on the pavement (you know how pavement up north separates from the cold weather over time? + 200rpm 40lb pistons on an 18lb bike = catching air. Hell yeah it was dangerous, but damn fun. The hill was 1 mile at 10%, dead straight until the bottom. Normally I would get 47mph in an aero tuck, not drafting. No bull on the 70mph either, I had that speedometer calibrated to a T. This was at 500ft elevation. If I had bigger gear than 53x12, I could have easily hit 80mph. I bought a 56x11 setup, but never got around to trying it again. My friend's Air Force recruiter even saw us during the speed run that day....lol.

When I pulled out of the draft to slow down, it felt like a wave smashing into me.

 

[liveforphysics]

When I pulled out of the draft to slow down, it felt like a wave smashing into me.

At my last track day with my GSX-R 1000, I was boiling my brakes pretty badly towards the end of the day, and started experimenting with using my body more for braking at the end of the straight.

I made a critical mistake of fanning my legs open and sitting my head/chest up a bit BEFORE being full-on the brakes (which throws you forward VERY hard, like doing a handstand on your handle bars is what it feels like when you're threshold braking). At ~170mph with no mechanical break pulled yet to counter-act the wind forces, cracking open my legs and poping my chest up, I thought I was going to fly off like a kite. I literally thought the bike would flip up into the air from my hand pulling on the bars so hard. I could barely get a finger off the bar to pull the brake, which instantly made me go back to being shoved forward rather than backwards. It was pretty crazy though. I had my visor on a helmet fly up once going across the 520 bridge in Seattle at ~180-190mph. It felt like my neck was going to break backwards, and air was ripping under my eyelids and crap (which always feels wacky to feel your eyelids slapping against your eyeball lol), fortunately just ducking my head straight down caused the visor to slap down again and things were good. I replaced those broken helmet visor hinges the next day.

 

[dogman dan]

Bring the heat and just blow em away sounds like great fun. But it's gonna really up the ante on how much battery you need to carry. As it is, just to ride my 20 mph 2812 motor up that hill, I'd already need to buy 8 more lipo packs. I'm figuring on needing 20s 15 ah to run 1500w on the 8% and more on the parts that are like a wall.

It's a freaking LONG hill. Blow watts at it and you'll have to figure out how to carry it. Assuming you can afford it at all.

 

[TylerDurden]

Bring the heat and just blow em away sounds like great fun. But it's gonna really up the ante on how much battery you need to carry. As it is, just to ride my 20 mph 2812 motor up that hill, I'd already need to buy 8 more lipo packs. I'm figuring on needing 20s 15 ah to run 1500w on the 8% and more on the parts that are like a wall. ...It's a freaking LONG hill. Blow watts at it and you'll have to figure out how to carry it. Assuming you can afford it at all.

I imagine it can be done for less than half the cost of an Opti.

 

[kfong]

Nice to see people taking this climb more seriously. The altitude is a bitch if you are not acclimated to it. I was never able to catch my breath on top after sitting it out for a while. Snowboarding down the backside, I had to stop at every second turn to catch my breath. If you plan to pedal, you need to be in shape for this event. Most likely you won't be very effective near the top, so plan on having enough power for that last leg.

 

[Whiplash]

Yes, altitude causes some weird effects, you get dizzy and feel loopy! We went up northern CA a while back and at 10000' you start to feel it for sure!

 

[MadRhino]

About drafting: Let the Optis think they can draft you for a while, then suddenly WOT and fly up leaving them in the dust at the moment the wind is full ahead.

 

[Whiplash]

Yeah, I think it would be cool if we put our resources together to just blow them off the road with an ES logoed bike! Just put like 50ah on there and go for it! Lol!

 

[Whiplash]

How fast would you have to average up that grade to smoke the opti's?

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, I think it would be cool if we put our resources together to just blow them off the road with an ES logoed bike! Just put like 50ah on there and go for it! Lol!

I am accepting donations you know :lol:

As for the speed, their average speed last year was about 21mph and they made it up in just a hair over an hour.
25mph would handily beat them.

25mph avg from the motors alone is what i'm aiming for. However many additional MPH you get from pedaling is a bonus.

 

[Whiplash]

Well, I don't have any monetary donations I can make, but I would be willing to machine anything you need.... Looks like MAC's for you though, so ya don't really need any of that huh?? Wish I could help out more, but I am one of the less monetarily inclined folks on the board.. LOL!


What I NEED to do is borrow my brothers 10AH and combine it with my 15AH and give it a go on MY bike! I bet I would do pretty well with a little motor cooling and maybe a bit of Aero to help! I bet 25AH of 44.4V would get you there at about that speed NO? I could scrounge up another 10AH off my wife's bike if I needed to but I would rather not. The best thing about this is, I could possibly beat them at their own game! Mine is through the gears too!! Probably would have to REALLY watch the watt consumption I am sure. Lots of gear switching...



HMMM got me thinking!! When is this event again?? Seriously...

 

[Whiplash]

OK so with 25AH @ 44.4V nom. I end up with a tad over 1KWH so with a bit of loss, call it 1KWH. If I can make it in an hour to the top, that gives me 1000 watts to play with for the whole ride! I am SURE I can get away with a lot less than that for most of the ride, my bike uses about 800-900 ish at that speed climbing a local grade of 8-10% with NO pedaling, so if I can train a bit so I can help, keep it in an efficient gear for as little as possible consumption I just might be able to beat them! I might just have to figure out a way to get there if its not too soon... I still need to finalize my new box build, heck it should be even more efficient with the new design! Hopefully so! If this is coming too soon, I will HAVE to go at it next year, and I'll bring 30AH+ And maybe even a second motor, so I can really kick their butts!!! Sounds like an excuse for a vacation!

 

[Jay64]

I believe they just had the event at the end of August, I could be wrong. But that basically gives you almost a year to get ready. My brother recently moved to Colorado, I think it would be a blast to go hang out with his family and go do this event. Unfortunately, if it is at the end of August next year, I think I might have 1 more ICE race to do before the season is over at that time. If anyone has any connections with this event, please verify the 2012 date. Hopefully I will have a few weeks between races at that time to make the event, or better yet, the season already be over.

 

[Whiplash]

Awesome! I would say you can count me in then! I will do my best to make it! My wife and I would LOVE to do a Colorado vacation anyway!!!

 

[neptronix]

This year was august 28th. Not sure about next year.

http://www.ridepikespeak.com/Assault_2011.1/Home.html
^-- there's the official page for it..

I am going to go with dual magic pies just for the reason that they can shed heat, and i want to be safe.
I'd prefer to do it with the MAC motors because they are light and more efficient. We'll see how it goes with the pies.

Your reduction system to the gears would be fantastic - that's how optibike is winning this - keeping their motor at peak efficiency about 100% of the time. I'd love to see you come kick their ass. Just aim higher than their record..

 

[liveforphysics]

Two motors makes optibike win no matter what bro. Even if you skunk them, they get to say how it takes two ebike kits to beat an optibike etc etc.


It's not tough. Setup a single magic pie correctly, make your practice runs adjusting power and watching temperatures, get your setup dialed in, so you know things like battery capacity and how the bike behaves for cooling at high elevation are all non-issues, and go hit it.

Single el-cheapo motor, single el-cheapo controller, el-cheapo bicycle, RC LiPo packs, and bringing home the win with an easily reproduce-able, simple to build with available parts bicycle is priceless.

A single magic-pie will SOOO get you the win in a big way. Doing more is just making ES look stupid.

 

[gensem]

ES members can show up with stronger bikes, nothing is forbidden. But we gotta have a single pie to beat Opti on the cheap.

 

[neptronix]

Sorry guys. If the motor is anything like the crystalyte HT, it will have to shed about 1000w worth of power at the most difficult parts. It will also drop out of it's efficiency range at those parts and dip into the 50% - 60% eff. range if it's anything like the HT, and i do believe it will be like the HT, going off it's diameter.

The lower efficiency of taxing one motor hard means i have to carry even more batteries. I am already looking at 30AH of 20s lipo at an absolute bare minimum. Running two motors simultaneously means i should have double the torque and thus dropping out of the efficiency range won't be so much of an issue.

Whoever reaches the top faster wins the race. If optibike wants to be sore losers about it, they are welcome to do so. I will still be beating them on $3000 worth of components ( stupidly sized battery included ). That's what matters to me. I will be a pain in their side each year as long as i live in this area.

I invite you to come out and kick their ass with a single motor. I am just playing it extra safe and keeping a wide margin of error in my build.

 

[Jay64]

Neptronix, do you know if the route is open year round? Well, I don't really care if it is open in the middle of winter. :lol: I was thinking that I have to drive to the West coast a couple times a year, and if I'm driving all that way, it probably won't be that much more for my trip to swing up to Pike's Peak and make a few practice/test/data collecting runs. If it's open, it would be cool to meet up with you and go do some testing together.

 

[dogman dan]

Rewound pie. Or slower winding pie if it can be found. Then volt up. 1000 wh won't be enough. I'm figuring on about 2000 wh.

70 wh/mi x 25 = 1750 wh. Plus some reserve so you don't have to pedal from 1350-1400 feet.