Pikes Peak, Electric Mountain Climbers...

gensem said:
Im aware that at low speeds all your watts goes to heat and that ll screw the geared hub even if its under 1kw of input power. But I find it really hard to believe watching some short youtube footage about the event that a dual geared hub setup eating 3,5kw of power(1760w x2) wouldnt be able to keep at least 20mph.

I vote for Neptronix and the real life test. eheh

I believe it is achievable with a high torque wind. Perhaps i will only go 20mph, but I will hold that speed constant. They can gain on me on the flat sections with their advantage of gearing.. but with only 850 watts, they can't do much on the hills, can they?

Time to start losing some weight though... lol
 
A 12t MAC (200rpm) is the slowest and should do about 34mph at 24s lipo 26" rim. You MAC is 8t if im not mistaken you are probably doing 30 something with 15s lipo...

You dont need to lose weight, you need a raise for more lipo and another motor.
 
neptronix said:
gensem said:
Im aware that at low speeds all your watts goes to heat and that ll screw the geared hub even if its under 1kw of input power. But I find it really hard to believe watching some short youtube footage about the event that a dual geared hub setup eating 3,5kw of power(1760w x2) wouldnt be able to keep at least 20mph.

I vote for Neptronix and the real life test. eheh

I believe it is achievable with a high torque wind. Perhaps i will only go 20mph, but I will hold that speed constant. They can gain on me on the flat sections with their advantage of gearing.. but with only 850 watts, they can't do much on the hills, can they?

Time to start losing some weight though... lol


There is no such thing as a high-torque wind. If the copper fill is the same, it makes the exact same amount of heat per unit of torque if it's a 1-turn or a 100-turn.

The difference is in the burden on the controller.
 
I thought the idea of a high torque wind was that it had greater copper fill.

Are you suggesting rewinding whichever hub motor i use, a la flaming cock motor?
 
How much distance was the climb that opti did in 1 hour and 6 minutes? 19,5 miles?

1.1kw ebike averaged at ~18mph

Even a dual 8t ll be able to do the climb. And I know you have 5s packs, so 20s 25a should do the trick and have a very good top speed 40ish
Neptronix ll win with a big advantage (if nothing breaks)!
 
You two are hilarious

1) not much BLDC knowledge
neptronix said:
I thought the idea of a high torque wind was that it had greater copper fill.
2) not much knowledge of the actual climb
gensem said:
How much distance was the climb that opti did in 1 hour and 6 minutes? 19,5 miles?
3) you don't even bother to read what happened in the past
Green Machine said:
The point was last year there were only 6 contestants...2 being optibikes. The 2 hub motors were bmc's (geared hub). I ride bmc's and know exactly how bad they are for this kind of climb. I roasted 5 bmcs in one year in small hill climbing situations. In fact, just roasted a bmc last night while attempting a small hill climb.

Well, go on - make fools of yourselves :D

gensem said:
if nothing breaks
Famous last words
 
gensem said:
How much distance was the climb that opti did in 1 hour and 6 minutes? 19,5 miles?

1.1kw ebike averaged at ~18mph

Even a dual 8t ll be able to do the climb. And I know you have 5s packs, so 20s 25a should do the trick and have a very good top speed 40ish
Neptronix ll win with a big advantage (if nothing breaks)!

This is not how speed doubles... this thread is a fantastic example of clueless armchair engineering at its finest.
 
I'm out for optibike blood and want to show the world that a hobbyist on ES can win on a beer budget. You're not contributing.

If those guys were running single BMC motors then shame on them. A single geared motor will not handle this. I mentioned that i was going to run two... at a constant power level per motor that is lower than I normally run on up to 7% grades regularly on my single MAC.

I have no knowledge of the actual climb. I just have 9 months of time to practice and i live 5 miles away from the entrance. :mrgreen: :lol:

Don't act as if you never came on this forum with questions about high performance, FT.
You can sit here and criticize but your words fall on deaf ears.
 
Anyhow i don't think i'd run 20S.. it does depend on the winding however. The average speed record for 2011 appears to be 21.6mph according to this guy's data:

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/110423332

If i can average 25mph i'm happy. Not interested in going over the top.. that just increases the risk of overheating the hub motors.
 
neptronix said:
I'm out for optibike blood and want to show the world that a hobbyist on ES can win on a beer budget. You're not contributing.
I just told you what NOT to do. Isn't that contributing ;) No, seriously if you need some tips I'm happy to help you - mountain climbing is my speciality. Doing that on a public forum kinda defeats the purpose - everyone can read it.

neptronix said:
I just have 9 months of time to practice and i live 5 miles away from the entrance.
That definately helps. Umm.. I live 5 miles from Melbourne F1 GP circuit with full public access, do you think I can become a F1 champion in 9 month?
 
OK, i am reading more.

http://www.ridepikespeak.com/Assault_2011.1/Complete_2011_Results.html

Here's 2010:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20061&p=312604

The 3 contestants were:

+ iZip bike ( wimpy power )
+ Kalkhoff ( or however you spell it ) bike ( small geared motor )
+ Cruiser bike with one BMC motor and what looks like a crapton of lifepo4. ( melted down )

Here's 2011:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31490

+ Guy on a 600 watt hub motor
+ Kalkhoff again
+ Josh k on some 24v Rocha mountain climber kit, again with lifepo4.

Y'all think i'm crazy and/or stupid for going up against optibike with 3 times the wattage they have and lipo... ??? :lol:
 
full-throttle said:
neptronix said:
I'm out for optibike blood and want to show the world that a hobbyist on ES can win on a beer budget. You're not contributing.
I just told you what NOT to do. Isn't that contributing ;) No, seriously if you need some tips I'm happy to help you - mountain climbing is my speciality. Doing that on a public forum kinda defeats the purpose - everyone can read it.

Start now then. I'm proposing to run two large geared motors well within their limits, at lower power than i normally climb multi mile hills at. I also climb stupidly high grades; not off road, but on road. Please tell me exactly what is wrong here. Because i have already ascended grades that are in line with the maximum grade at pike's peak.

neptronix said:
I just have 9 months of time to practice and i live 5 miles away from the entrance.
That definately helps. Umm.. I live 5 miles from Melbourne F1 GP circuit with full public access, do you think I can become a F1 champion in 9 month?[/quote]

Given the fact that you can easily build a machine within your budget that has 3 times more power than your competitors, and can practice any time you like, i would say you have an awfully good chance. 8)
 
neptronix said:
Anyhow i don't think i'd run 20S.. it does depend on the winding however. The average speed record for 2011 appears to be 21.6mph according to this guy's data:

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/110423332

If i can average 25mph i'm happy. Not interested in going over the top.. that just increases the risk of overheating the hub motors.
If they won with 21.6 this year, they could win with 26.1 next...

Then, going slow won't help your hub motor to cool.
 
Neptronix,

How fast do you want to go? If you're serious, I've been looking for someone to help DD hubs get the respect they deserve with no pedaling, since it's about the machine. As long as you're not a fatty like me, I have motors that will handle that climb at a minimum speed that is nearly double Opti's average speed.

It's not just a matter of throwing more watts at it, though of course to double the speed on a given hill requires double the power, plus whatever it takes to overcome the extra wind resistance. The key to getting up the Peak with a single gear is an ebike tuned to handle the steepest sections as if they were continuous. That includes the right combination of wheel size, voltage, and current settings where the motor's peak continuous power can be attained through the steepest sections. As long as that rpm point (or higher) can be reached on the steepest grades, then it's just a question of having enough batteries, because the remainder of the climb will be faster and at greater efficiency. My only real concern is sections with both sharp curves and steep grades, and whether you can easily and safely negotiate those curves at 30-35mph-ish.

Sure variable gearing is better for climbing in many respects, but it's simply wrong for anyone to think that a single speed can't do it. Electric motors have a much broader power band, so it's much more pleasant than it would be to get in your ICE powered vehicle and do the entire ride in 1st gear, which is how you'd have to gear a single speed ICE vehicle.

BTW, you'll have no worries about brakes. The mechanical brakes would just be an emergency backup. You'd regen on the way down, and have a healthy SOC for lots more riding, while everyone else is forced to recharge or go on pedal power alone. :mrgreen:

John
 
That's fine... at least they will have had their crown taken from them just once. They'll have to redesign their bike to beat me. All i will need is more ingenuity. Or if i can get luke over here with his agni bike then all bets are off for optibike :)

So my question to you who have raced this sort of terrain is this... is a hardtail, no suspension bike going to be adequate here? Remember, >95% of this is pavement.. the other ~5% is gravel.

I am wondering exactly what type of bicycle handles the best around curves. I noticed that e-bmx with a long wheelbase is getting popular. Is there a handling advantage to that low & long geometry?
 
When Justin was showing me his dyno, and how he was able to do continuous runs from the power supply stack, he said no hubmotor he ever tested could do 1000w continuous. This included every geared hub and x5, 9c, etc.

Gear hubs insulate the motor from the outside. Outside air is where you need to get all your heat to end up, or you will fail.

Hence the magic pie, it's flux gap area is large enough, it's way better than the geared hub motor flux area x the gear ratio they have, and it has an effective heat path when vented.

Magic Pie's are dirt cheap. Making the magic pie survive the hill is dirt cheap and easy (for anyone, drill holes and run big wires, mount fans if you're feeling up to it.)



Secondly, if you win with a pair of hub motors, or if I brought my Agni bike and climbed it at 60mph, those are both win's for Opti-bike, because they can say, "it takes 2 ebike kits to equal an optibike!" or "it took a 35hp motorcycle motor to beat the optibike!"

Both of those situations means a win for Opti-bike, and the simple truth is that neither are necessary.


A vented magic pie is done and finish for like $200-300? It's very light, the bicycle still feels like a bicycle, and IS a bicycle by any account. You spend say $300 total on motor and modding it, $200 on a controller, and personally I would do at minimum 3kw-hrs of LiPo, 5kw-hrs would be playing it safe if you want to be certain to beat them, because you KNOW they are going to substantially up the game from this year.
 
Luke, that is very interesting. I wonder what his test conditions were? did he have some air flowing through them... and how long?

I would have never expected you to seriously recommend anything from golden motor. I suppose i will start investigating.

If i were to win with two motors, they can say that all they want... but i will have the $2000-$3000 ebike... they will have the $11,000 eBike :)

We are likely going to buy property here so i would like to be a severe pain in their side each year... no matter the setup. As long as it costs a fraction of what they are asking, then i am quite happy. I know your agni setup would qualify as a shit-ton cheaper than their setup.
 
Here's an idea.
I was reading dogman's hub motor meltoff thread and he mentioned that the high humidity makes for awful cooling.

I have always done my power tests in mid-high humidity in the pacific northwest - at 100-1000 miles below sea level.
So yes this could be a different beast entirely.

But he mentioned this:

dogman said:
Even in high humidity the water and rag trick works, and so would a mister or spray bottle. The water gets hot, drips off the motor, and takes the heat with it. Water molecules can really absorb a lot of calories. While moving, the water slings off the motor too fast to do as much as if you stop.

Back in the day, I used to drive home from work 70 miles in a bug. About halfway up a pass called Anthony Gap, I'd pull over when the VW started vapor locking and spray down the fan on the motor with a windex bottle for 2 min, cool it down and be on my way. This was not needed in July, when the rains came, and humidity might be 15-20%. But it was a must when the humidity was 5% and the temp was 105F.

What about drilling holes in a magic pie ( or other DD hub ) and adding water spraying system? the coating on the magnet wire would prevent a short from happening... maybe the halls would be a problem though.... is this a feasible idea?
 
Rain hasn't hurt the ventilated 9C on CrazyBike2, so far, but it does keep it cooler. I dunno how much help it would be when it's *really* hot, but I'm sure it would be some. No corrosion yet, either, but it was only twice so far. (actually there was eventually corrosion in the hall connector, whcih I simply removed and soldered them together instead).

As long as there is not conductive minerals in the water (salts and such), or metallic dust on the roads that accumulates in the motor, nothing will short out. Still possible for stuff to corrode over time, but for at least a single run I'd guess it'd be fine.

You could seal all electrical connections with silicone or similar.
 
neptronix said:
What about drilling holes in a magic pie ( or other DD hub ) and adding water spraying system?
That's more like it

neptronix said:
I'm out for optibike blood
So are they. Perhaps even more than you are. They also have more than a 'beer budget', more experience and, forgive me the bluntness, more athleticism. They are prob reading all your ideas right now. Oh, and by 'they' I don't just mean opti.
 
My motors were only $125 plus shipping including the controller (sorry guys, 3 year old price), and with a cyclist size rider just one would be needed to stay well above 30mph through those short 11-12% grades. With a 175lb rider and a 100lb bike a 12% grade at 30mph requires about 3kw at the wheel. I have definitely run the motor on my daily rider at higher continuous power than that, because it takes more like 4kw (5kw+ input) for me to cruise at 50mph on the highway. I've done 10 miles of 45-50mph up a slight grade into a headwind, and going straight into a mile plus of 7-8% grade where speed dropped to 33-35mph due to an even bigger headwind through the pass, with no heat issues. That's pushing 250lb me and my 125lb low LWB bike. That was with a sealed motor and factory wiring, both of which would change for the better for to attempt at PP, and I'd probably even include one of Burtie's variable timing rigs to really tune the bike for the climb.

High speed wind hubbies and small wheels FTW. :twisted:

EDIT- They can bring all the athleticism they want, because I'll put an electric motor against human power any time, and the bike I bring or send won't need any human assist whatsoever, just a 30-35 minute blast to the top.
 
liveforphysics said:
gensem said:
How much distance was the climb that opti did in 1 hour and 6 minutes? 19,5 miles?

1.1kw ebike averaged at ~18mph

Even a dual 8t ll be able to do the climb. And I know you have 5s packs, so 20s 25a should do the trick and have a very good top speed 40ish
Neptronix ll win with a big advantage (if nothing breaks)!

This is not how speed doubles... this thread is a fantastic example of clueless armchair engineering at its finest.

I dont have a dyno at home, but based on penn university bicycle power calculator and ebikes.ca simulator the MAC top speeds are pretty much right and 3.5kw input ll be enough to keep a very good pace.
You dont have to be an enginner to buy some lipos and tackle one big hill with two motors to see if you can win a challenge next year.
 
Opti keeps saying they are the faster using almost no power, but every year they raise the amount of power the bike have.

The first one was 400w now they are using like 1,1kw with even higher bursts.
As John said if you are able to use 3kw all the time theres is no much use for gears in pike peaks. And you can win using 1,5-2k dollars and not over 11k.

Opti is not bad at all (if you can bare the noise, hehe) its just their pricing police thats off the roof.
 
For a serious attempt I would think we should start with modeling the Opti successes. Power, weight, time, KWh all that stuff. Try to bound their winning approach. Much easier to surpass the competitor when you know right where they are.
 
According to this: http://www.ridepikespeak.com/Assault_2011.1/See_the_Ride.html the maximum grade is only 10.5%.
For 100kg (220 lbs) gross weight, at 20 mph, that's about 1100 Watts output required.

Course length 24.5 miles
[Ref: http://www.ridepikespeak.com/Assault_2011.1/See_the_Ride.html]

2011 RESULTS – E - Bikes
Name Hometown Summit Time
1 John Sagebiel Reno NV 1:06:40 * New Record
2 Jamie Johnson San Francisco CA 1:10:36
3 Kyle Hale Boulder CO 1:12:45
4 Craig Taber Boulder CO 1:14:19
5 Jim Turner Boulder CO 1:14:38
6 Traci Brown (F) Boulder CO 1:21:10 * New Record
 
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