Raptor 140 - Full Suspension eBike Build Thread

[Mammalian04]

A big thank you to the ES forum members for giving me the confidence and supportive member contacts to move forward with this Full Suspension eBike build. I am very excited to get this off the ground.

Post #2 in this thread will be about my priorities/objectives for the build. I will update this with additional insight as I learn it so as to help others later down the road (and to help me remember!).
Post #3 in this thread will be my list of needed components along with actual parts selected for the build. I will update the component selection list as it is refined through completion of the build.

 

[Mammalian04]

BUILD OBJECTIVES
As I learn more, I will update the objectives with some answers so this can be useful to others down the road.

KISS Principle: “Keep it simple, stupid” - I have a tendency to go overboard with projects and it ends up being a customization nightmare of one-off problems… This time, I am going to push myself to focus on keeping it simple with reliable, available parts, that won’t take a ton of customization (I know there will be “some” customization and wait on parts since this is, after all, a custom build). If I get too excited about, the latest and greatest from a manufacturer that might not be here next week, feel free to slap some sense into me!

Cost: I would like to keep the build in the mid build price range. I am ok with going with reliable used bike components in exchange for more robust battery, controller, and motor components.

Torque Baby!: I anticipate much of my riding to be slow speed, single track riding with lots of stall speed starts over obstacles and steep climbs. I know this is not the electric motor sweet spot so I have to take the high amp draw, during stall speed starts, into consideration. I am 6'2" and weigh 210lbs without gear on.

Range:
- 20+ mile trail riding range at varied speeds low to medium
- 35+ mile pavement range at high speeds at 30mph or greater

Suspension: I have ridden street motorcycles for a long time but I have no substantial experience on dirt bikes or mountain bikes. I would like a suspension setup that lets me grow into my off-road trail and downhill riding skillset, but I am definitely a fledgling amateur in the dirt and rocks.
- That being said, I “think” a new mid-grade (or a few year old high end) suspension setup is what makes sense for this build.
- I would like to occasionally bring my 2 yr. old son along, either in a child carrier or trailer. With the MX style seat, there is no seat post for carrier attachment, so a trailer with my son, or "stuff," in it is the likely route. For this, I understand that I need a rear suspension lockout to essentially make it a hardtail while pulling a trailer.

Speed: Lots of low-medium speed trail riding will be the primary goal, with a "highway gear" to get me to the trails at 35mph constant speed with slight uphill grades. 45 MPH maintained top speed would be nice but it is certainly not necessary if that would violate the "KISS" or "Torque Baby!" objectives.

Toughness: I'd like components that are tough enough to throw the bike down, dust myself off, and keep going without fear that something is bent or broken (besides my own body of course).
- I am even thinking of a LineX paint job on the frame instead of traditional paint (no worries about scratched paint there).
- Motorcycle rear tires seem to be a must

Moto Seat and Peg Option: I definitely want to go the MX style seat (as both Phasor and Qulbix have stated they will offer). Additionally, Qulbix noted that they will have interchangeable motorcycle pegs, which is very appealing to me when I don't need to keep up the "bicycle" ruse with pedals.

Safety: This relates to toughness and reliability for me.
- If I wreck, I'd like to minimize parts prone to take damage (e.g. parts like a derailleur seem prone for damage on branches and rocks).
- On the battery side, I want to avoid having a bike catch on fire and lighting the forest up (I am paranoid about this so I might even carry an extinguisher if I go LiPo). If these frames really do contain fire well, should things go bad, I am more accepting of a LiPo setup vs. LiFePO4. Charging at home is a different story, as I definitely can't have a fire there... again... If I can fit enough LiFePO4 in the frame for my objectives, I will go that route b/c of the lower maintenance and increased safety. Battery choice will likely have a big impact on the frame I choose.

Ease of Maintenance: I would like to eliminate high maintenance parts from the build (i.e. I have heard that the Fox forks need service after every 30 hours!). I am not big on derailleur’s as I always remember trouble with them on bikes as a kid (maybe things have changed now in recent years?). For batteries, I would like to find the right pack build that is “plug and walk away” until the next time I need the bike. As I understand things, this is possible, even for LiPos, if the right balancing harness, BMS, and charger combination are created… But, I can’t risk a fire in my garage below my son’s bedroom.

Bells and Whistles:
- 3 Position Controller Switch so I can give the bike to my wife and she can pin the throttle without fearing loss of control. Also, using this same setting to limit the bike to 20 MPH would be useful as well.
- Cycle Analyst to monitor the motor, temps (if necessary), speed, etc.
- Light system for getting home at dusk, and signal lights to keep it legal at night on the roads
- What else should I prioritize?

 

[Mammalian04]

COMPONENTS
This is where I will build my list of proposed components and the anticipated vendor (after the "-"). Confirmed component selection will be in BLUE.

Component Group A
Motor:
*- $595 - Cromotor V3 rear hub motor - Zombiess (greyborgusa.com)
Controller, BMS, and Charge Coil:
*- $800 - Adaptto MaxE with display
*- $105 - Adaptto MaxE BMS
*- $50 - MaxE charging coil
*- $35 - Shipping Cost from Russia
Batteries:
*- $1404 shipped for 16 packs - HobbyKing Zippy LiFePo4 4s2p 8400mah 30c - 8 packs in each bike for 16s4p in each bike
Custom Harness :$435 total ugh...
*- $80 - 4 series 2 parallel custom harness - Icecube
*- $180 - 6 series 3 parallel custom harness - Icecube
*- $30 ($15 each) precharge - Icecube
*- $24 ($12 each) 250a circuit breakers - Icecube
*- $41 Misc. connector and wire charges (XT150, 8awg controller wire, 10awg battery wire, 5.5mm bullet connectors, etc)- Icecube
*- $79.84 - 16 2x Parallel JST splitters (HK out of stock) - Icecube
*- $165 - Server Power Supply - Mean Well RSP-1500-48 - Vetco.com

- Samsung 25R - 20s13P - Five 4s13p wired in series
- Battery assembly kit (fuse for 25r high discharge) - Circuit
- $330 new / $? used - Eaton EPR48-3G Rectifier Power Supply - (900W 48Vdc 208/240 Vac Input 550W At 120Vac Input)

Component Group B
Front Wheel 1:
- $110 - 19x1.4 Motorcycle Wheel - Prowheel Racing
- $? - 13g spokes - Voltriders.com
- $55 - Spoke Lacing - Voltriders.com
Front Wheel 2:
- $140 - 19x1.85 Motorcycle Wheel - Prowheel Racing
- $? - 13g spokes - Voltriders.com
- $55 - Spoke Lacing - Voltriders.com
Rear Wheel 1:
- $110 - 19x1.4 TTR - Prowheel Racing
- $108 - 8g spokes - BuchananSpokes.com
- $136 - Rim Drill and Spoke Lacing - Voltriders.com
Rear Wheel 2:
- $140 - 19x1.85 - Prowheel Racing
- $108 - 8g spokes - BuchananSpokes.com
- $136 - Rim Drill and Spoke Lacing - Voltriders.com
Front Tire:
- Shinko 19x2.75 SR241 - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
Rear Tire:
- Shinko 19x2.75 SR241 - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
- Shinko 17x3.00 SR241 - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
Tubes and Rim Strips:
- Bike Master Tube 19x2.75 - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
- Bike Master Tube 17x3.00 - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
- Rim Strip 19" - MotorcycleSuperstore.com
- Rim Strip 17" - MotorcycleSuperstore.com

Brake Calipers and MCs:
- $540 ($269 Each) - Magura MT7 4 Piston (Right hand for front brake but lever can be reversed) - Amazon - Phat Tire
- $330 ($165 Each) - Magura MT5 4 Piston (Left hand for rear brake) - Amazon - Xtreme Bike & Sport or Cycle Progression(local shop)

- $460 ($230 Each) - Avid Code (4 Piston) - Price Point / $455 on Pinkbike with 200mm/200mm F/R disks
- $245 ($122.50 Each) - Avid Code R (4 Piston) - Chain Reaction Cycles / $355 on Pinkbike with adaptors and any size disks
Brake Switch x2 for each bike:
- Reed Switch
OR
- $29 - Magura Hydraulic Pressure Switch - LINK
- eBike.ca throttle with button - eBike.ca
Brake Discs:
- Front Disk - 203mm - Cycle Progression
- Rear Disk - 203mm - Cycle Progression
Brake Pads & Oil:
- mineral oil or dot5 (dependent upon brake options) - Cycle Progression
- Organic or Sintered brake pads (dependent upon brake options) - Cycle Progression
Frame:
- Raptor - Qulbix
Seat:
- Regular Seat?

Component Group C
Rear Shock:
Bike 1 - 10.5 X 3.5
- $? - Fox DHX RC4 Kashima - Pinkbike.com (used take-off)
- $558 - Cane Creek DBCoil - JensenUSA.com
Bike 2 - 9.5x3.0
- $110 used + rebuild cost - Fox Van RC - pikbike.com
- $ - Fox Float X CTD w/ Trail Adjust -
- $550 - Cane Creek DBAir CS - AEBike.com

Forks:
- $999 - 2014 FOX 40 FLOAT 27.5 RC2 - jensonusa.com

- $555 - DNM USD-8 with dual brake disk mount - Zombiess - (greyborgusa.com - Out of Stock Indefinitely)
- $425 used (stem cut?) - Rockshox Boxxer - ES forum
- $ - Marzocchi 888
- $1350 - 2015 FOX 40 FLOAT 26 FIT RC2 Kashima - pinkbike.com
- $900 - Manitou Dorado Expert (air spring) - pinkbike.com

Head Set - 44mm headset internal diameter (1 1/8" headset):
- Bike 1: Cane Creek 40 - Cycle Progression
- Bike 2: Hope Headset - Cycle Progression
Stem: Tall enough to mount bicycle seat bar for Ethan
- Bike 1: ???
- Bike 2: Hope Top Crown - Cycle Progression
Bars / Grips:
- Bike 1: $30 -
- Bike 2: $30 -

Brake Levers: Not Used
- $? - eBrake - ilia

Front Hub:
- $89 - Hope Pro 2 EVO 36h - Front Hub - Chain Reaction Cycles
- OUT OF STOCK EVERYWHERE (grr....) - $75 - DNM Dual Disk Hub - Voltriders.com

Crankset:
-

Pedals:
- $55 - Shimano Saint MX80 Pedals - Chain

Throttle:
- ebikes.ca throttle with momentary switch
- ebay throttle with on/off switch

Component Group D
Charging Port:
- MaxE Charging port for 5v USB (iphone, iPod, etc)
Headlight:
- ebay headlight
Mudguards:
-
Rear light:
-
Horn/Bell:
-
Switches and Labels:
- Power Setting (Low, Medium, High) - on Adaptto MaxE display
- Lights - High, Low, Off) - ?
- Rear Lights - On/Off - ?
- Controller Key - On/Off - ?
- Regen - On/Off - ?
- Horn / Bell - ?
GPS Tracker:
-
Paint:
- Upgraded Swingarm paint to match white frame - qulbix
- LineX - Texas Truck and Trailer
Wiring:
- $9 - Charge Port - NLT4MP-BAG - Rated to 40A - 50% Duty Cycle - AlliedElec.com
- $0.85 - Charge Port Gasket - SCNLT
- $2.38 - Charge Port Cap - SCL
- $6.79 - Charge Plug - SPEAKON NL4FRX - Rated to 40A - 50% Duty Cycle - Alliedelec.com

 

[arkmundi]

I'm on the side of battery safety, charging at home and on the road, so have and recommend to others that they use LiFePO4. The marginal weight savings with Lipo are just not worth it, period. There are far superior life-time cost savings to be had with high-end LiFePO4 batteries, because their cycle life is much better. For instance with the A123 nanophosphate cells, you can expect more than 2000 cycles, and longer if they're not abused. So initial costs for a Lipo are cheaper, but for total amp-hours over the lifetime of the battery, the cost of a good LiFePO4 battery will be less. Do the calculation yourself and you'll see. Anyway, best of luck on your build!

 

[Mammalian04]

Thanks Arkmundi. I agree with your thoughts on LiPo vs LiFeO4. Once I determine the power requirements, I will be able to determine if I can stuff enough LiFe04 to meet those objectives. I am only leaving LiPo on the table, just in case I can't stuff enough LiFeO4 into the frame.

 

[dogman dan]

Wow, good thing you don't want it all rolled into one bike. To get it all, I have six ebikes.

At least a cromotor will be able to suck up a lot of heat before it melts, crawling up singletrack. WAAAAAY too heavy a rear motor for my local trails. But I don't know what yours are like.

A cromotor bike will love trails and roads motorcycles like, even if it's a big rear heavy for really technical bike trails.

20 miles range, going slow, eating up watthours making heat, is going to take a freaking huge battery.

 

[cwah]

I have the same requirement as you, but I can only have small folding bike due to living in a small flat

 

[Mammalian04]

At least a cromotor will be able to suck up a lot of heat before it melts, crawling up singletrack. A cromotor bike will love trails and roads motorcycles like, even if it's a big rear heavy for really technical bike trails.

Dogman, it sounds like the Cromotor is the wrong choice for slower MTB trails then? If so, I then have to make the choice to change the trails I plan on riding (MTB-->Moto) or go with a "slower turn" motor (I think that is the right term).

20 miles range, going slow, eating up watthours making heat, is going to take a freaking huge battery.

An alternative to my 20 mile "trail" range is a smaller pack with a 10+ mile "trail" range, but with an onboard charger, so I can plug in to an outlet outside a coffee shop or something. Would this be more reason to go Lifeo4 or LiPo Hybrid? I hear these require less "equipment" for charging. Maybe that means I can get away with an onboard charger.

I have the same requirement as you, but I can only have small folding bike due to living in a small flat

CWAH, have you looked at the High Power Cycles Recon? http://www.hi-powercycles.com/hpc-recon-folding-mountain-bike/
This may be a starting point to then upgrade for your needs.

 

[brumbrum]

Fricking 'ell mate, you're not asking much of this bike you have planned! I wish i knew where to start to help make suggestions. I don't know what to say......... speed, torque, agility, range, bulletproof , wife proof, child proof, low maintenance. As yet I am not sure anything in the world has been invented that ticks all those boxes. This could be a new era in personal transportation. Good luck, i will follow this thread.

 

[dogman dan]

Or he can just change his expectations. I'm not saying if he builds a bike with a big cromotor it will suck. Just saying it will go up those trails faster than he may be able to hang on. It is true that a big motor with lots of copper will have a longer time to overheat just from the thermal mass. But at 5 mph under load up grades, it will get warm and that warmth is also battery capacity wasted.

Just a couple general points. A trail bike has to hit some kind of sweet spot between weight that increases performance, and too much weight that degrades the handling.

A reasonable battery weight for not wrecking handling is around 15 pounds or less, That will get you 10 miles of pretty high performance riding. 72v 10 ah of lico for example, weighs about 12 pounds. Even going to 90v won't push it over 15 pounds. And it might even fit in the triangle of some bikes.

Same sort of thing can happen with too much motor. Hell yeah 5000w is fun, but if you are carrying 1000 wh, that's a real nice 8 minute ride. If you ride with a motor happy with 1500w, you get closer to an hour of ride time.

This is where you start heading towards multiple bikes. If the trail is too far to ride to at 20 mph, then maybe you need a hitch rack so you can drive to the trailhead. Then unload a sweet riding, lighter trail bike. A good trail ride can be ridden street too, but soft gummy trail tires wear fast on the street. Street tires in the dirt suck for high performance riding, but for a cruise type ride that can work.
It might be just easier to have two bikes. One can be a real hot rod, the other not so hot and cheaper. Both can run on the same battery.

Experimenting with a cheap motor first is always a good idea.

 

[Mammalian04]

Brumbrum, good point. I may not get everything I am hoping for in this build. It may come down to prioritization of the objectives.

Right now I am sitting in a spaghetti bowl of decisions and research. To get the ball rolling, below is the path of component identification that I "think" I should follow, separated into 3 groups. The general idea would be to be 90% confident in my component selections for each group before moving on to the next.

***List is being updated as I learn more from fellow ES members***

Component Group A (Drive System)
A1) Motor
A2) Front or Rear Gearing (as applicable)
A3) Controller / Display
A4) Battery and Battery Management System (BMS)
A5) Charger(s)

Component Group B (Frame and Wheels)
B1) Wheels / Tires
B2) Brake System
B3) Frame / Swingarm dropout width / seat

Component Group C (Remaining major components)
C1) Rear Shock / Lockout System
C2) Forks
C3) Headset / Stem / Front Hub / Crankset
C4) Pedals / Footpegs
C5) Throttle Type
C6) Handle Bars / Grips


Component Group D (Accessorize)
D) Headlight
D) Rear Light
D) Horn/Bell
D) Switches and Labels
D) Paint selection

 

[Mammalian04]

If the trail is too far to ride to at 20 mph, then maybe you need a hitch rack so you can drive to the trailhead.

If I had to choose between trail torque vs. top end speed, trail torque wins. If I have to drive to trails in the truck, no biggie. I am sure I will get tired of my local trail soon enough.

A good trail ride can be ridden street too, but soft gummy trail tires wear fast on the street. Street tires in the dirt suck for high performance riding, but for a cruise type ride that can work. Experimenting with a cheap motor first is always a good idea.

My proposed tire is the Shrinko 241. Not sure how the wear is on it but I am ok with keeping up with new rubber. I sometimes burn through a set of motorcycle track tires in a weekend so hopefully my eBike set will be cheaper and longer lasting than that for my amateur riding habits!

This has me thinking though, Dogman. Rather than two bikes, what about two rear wheels with different motors. Could this be a pretty quick 3 minute swap back and forth?
Set 1) Off road tires and "slow turn?" motor for big torque off-road trails. (lots of climbing and stall speed starts)
Set 2) On-road/off-road tires and big Cromotor v3 for high speed pavement and gravel bike path type riding (limited stall speed starts)

I guess this 2 rear end setup would require:
- 2 rear wheels
- 2 rear tires
- 2 rear sprokets
- 2 sets of brake rotors
- 2 motors

 

[dogman dan]

A tiny nit pick, Choose the battery only after both motor and controller are set. Then you can decide what type of battery will work with that. Other than that, the order you listed is fine.

Mostly I'm just trying to urge you to decide which kind of bike you want. Fast and fun and badass on the street, Nimble ,light, and able to climb serious hills on trails, or something that is more in the middle.

Just sayin, the cromotor is sort of the badass street side of the spectrum. The new bafang bottom bracket drive the other side.

One very popular hubmotor lately has been the MAC, in the 10t winding. Run on 48v, it's fairly fast, fairly quick off the line, and climbs a fairly steep hill. That's the middle.

If you want both extremes, then two bikes eventually.

Re the post you typed while I typed. No, changing motors can take quite some time, and doing it a lot will wreck the axle threads.

But two expensive bikes gets expensive. That's true. I see now you seem to know how to ride. We never know who we are talking to at first. I see now, the attraction of the cromotor. On the race track, I can wear out a bike tire in 30 min. Lots of cromotors are being laced into moped rims to run a more durable tire.

And then there's, you'll be riding an illegal unregistered homemade motorcycle on the street. Like you'll care much about that.

 

[brumbrum]

I find taking out the rear motor wheel a pain due not being quick release andhaving to use torque arms. But you could go for horizontal dropouts on the frame so torque arms not required. But you will still probably have to adjust the rear brake calliper if the 2nd motor is different. It would be a PITA if you ask me.

Build a high torque bike and drive it to the trails. That's what i do. I have a commuting bike that is light and stealthy and a trail bike that uses lipo and is full suspension and will last an hour on throttle use at an average of about 1700w. I use a magic pie that runs sensorless with no hall wires and it is rewired with thicker phase wires. The pie deals with peaks of 2000w no problem i use 35 amps, as its DD its pretty bomb proof. The only problem it is probably only a 6T wind but is very robust. Top speed on 54-48v is 24mph which is fast enough on wet muddy trails. I would eventually like to try a 10T Mac motor. Lots of geared motor torque with easily replaceable parts. I would hard wire/solder the hall wires to the controller for more reliability and insulate them to avoid breakage and abrasion. In fact for the best reliability you could hard wire all wires going to the controller once happy with a setup. Connectors will eventually let you down on bumpy terrain especially with thin wires going to them.

 

[Mammalian04]

Choose the battery only after both motor and controller are set. Then you can decide what type of battery will work with that.

Thanks for the input. List updated.

the cromotor is sort of the badass street side of the spectrum. The new bafang bottom bracket drive the other side.

Are you referring to a mid-drive motor? I'd have to look into this as I don't know if the Phasor or Raptor can take a mid-drive. If so, this may solve my high speed vs. torque problem by having a climbing gear and a road gear. ES member "Rix" talks about wanting such a device, with 3 gears and moto chain that can handle 5000w, in this post: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41682&p=835262&hilit=mid+drive#p835262
As of yet, it doesn't look like a sturdy geared mid-drive exists... and pumping too much power through a bicycle chain is sure to violate my toughness objective.

As a side note - According to High Power Cycles, their new "Revolution" frame is going to be mid-drive capable and is to be released in 3 weeks (though I wouldn't count on that time frame). They also noted that they will be releasing their own mid-drive motor a "soon" after the Revolution is released. I still don't think it solves the problem of getting big power to the rear wheel though, but we'll see eventually when they release their product.

Re the post you typed while I typed. No, changing motors can take quite some time, and doing it a lot will wreck the axle threads.

...you could go for horizontal dropouts on the frame so torque arms not required. But you will still probably have to adjust the rear brake calliper if the 2nd motor is different. It would be a PITA if you ask me.

Ok, two good reasons is enough for me. That idea is tossed. I wasn't in love with it either.

I see now you seem to know how to ride. We never know who we are talking to at first. I see now, the attraction of the cromotor. On the race track, I can wear out a bike tire in 30 min. Lots of cromotors are being laced into moped rims to run a more durable tire.

I should note that my experience is in roadracing sport bikes on a racetrack. I don't have any experience in the dirt - unless you call hitting a cedar tree within my first 10 seconds on a dirt bike, experience. In my defense, I was 10 and had never ridden a motorcycle at that point. I've now been riding street for about 20 years so hopefully some of that skillset will transfer over, though it does seem to be a completely difference style of riding.

 

[snellemin]

My Raptor is a dual purpose bike. Daily commuter and rides trails just fine. It's heavy, but you adjust after a bit. You don't feel the weight of the cromotor on the Raptor frame, like you would on a regular bike frame. I played around with different rear shock springs, until I found a happy medium. I'm thinking the Phasor would be a nice lighter setup if you went with a Magic pie motor.

 

[Mammalian04]

My Raptor is a dual purpose bike. Daily commuter and rides trails just fine. It's heavy, but you adjust after a bit.

Since I don't really have a MTB background, I would think anything lighter than my 400lb. sport bikes would feel more nimble to me. As long as the bike is not too adversely balanced (front to rear) by a big honkin' motor, I am not sure I would mind the heavier weight.

If it would get me the torque I need, great! I just don't want a big pile of melted Cromotor from stall starts and climbs.

 

[Drunkskunk]

I've been watching your thread and like where your ideas are going. But I saw in your second post that you wanted to keep the cost in the mid range, and follow the K.I.S.S. principle, However, the bike you are describing will be one of the more powerful bikes around, and I'd expect your costs to go north of $7000 very quickly.

If you really want a bike like this, Awesome. Welcome to the club!
If you really are trying to keep things simple, you may want to step back and re-evaluate what you're doing. In general, a true ebike is a sub-70 pound, 250-500 watt bicycle. When you cross into the range of what many of us have built, we can only call them "Bicycles" because we wink and nod and ignore the fact that we're really building things better described as motorcycles.

I have 2 suggestions for you, that really amount to the same suggestion for two different reasons. Build a simple $1000 bike first. 500 watts, 25mph, 48 volts. Slap it on a hard tail mountain bike and ride. If you really want the big bike, then the experience you get from building the small bike may save you several thousand in build costs. Many have gone this route, and found it really does save them time and money later.
And if you really didn't want to go for an insanely overpowered pseudo-motorcycle, then also go this route. Its much easier to upgrade than it is to downgrade into the bike you need.

As a third thought, if you really are looking for something motorcycle like, take a look at the Stealth Bomber, and the Zero FX. An ebike build like you described can easily climb up to their price range.

 

[mvly]

Sounds like you need the off road version of the zero motorcycle. Or at least their cheaper slower motocross version.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/
http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus-specifications/

Or get a stealth bomber if you still want an ebike vs motorcycle.

Forget building what you want. The maintance on this thing will be high if you repeatly abuse it. I am not saying it's not possible. If you goal is to learn building something, it might be better to start with a lot few requirements and build one. Learn from it and build more. It will be much better experience than just building a motocross motorcycle as what you describe. Then if you still want to meet the requirements you listed, get a zero-fx!

Here is why you should just buy the zero-fx/Enertia or a stealth bomber:
KISS Principle: What can be simpler than NOT building an ebike. Here you are just buying.

Cost: Sure it's expensive, but compared to what you want to, good luck getting it under their price and still have all you want. And keep in mind the maintenance cost will be higher for you build vs something production which have warranties and dealers to do these things.

Torque Baby!: I assure you the zero-fx will have a lot of torque. Same with stealth, though much less.

Range: Both will be able to do what you need.

Suspension: Both will have good suspension.

Speed: Both will get you what you want. Though I would question how "Long" the Stealth bomber is able to keep you at those speed.

Toughness: I don't know if you can build something tougher than the production ebikes or the zero. They were built for that sole purpose.

Moto Seat and Peg Option: You might have to opt for the moto seat version of the stealth bomber if you want this option

Safety: They both use much safer batteries than Lipo. Also they are protected. These are production. I venture it will be much costlier if you want something the same by DIY.

Ease of Maintenance: Take the zero to a dealer if you are lazy. You might be able to fix it yourself if problem arises and you are capable to do the fix yourself. Just call them. Same goes for the stealth. Though if you do build one yourself, you might have a better understanding of the system. Still I think if you want ultimate ease, just give it to someone else to do it. If you build one, it will be YOU who do the maintaining.

Bells and Whistles: Stealth bomber will cost a bit more for more bells and whistle. For the Zero, I think you don't need anything else.



IMO, if you want what you want up there with the most ease of everything and reliable machine, get the zero-fx.

 

[drew12345]

I ride trails every week. I love it. However, I like skunks idea and trying out cheaper setup before you spend a lot money. You might hate riding on the trails so try first. Also, some may not like you riding electric bike on trails so be wary of that.

 

[Mammalian04]

...I saw in your second post that you wanted to keep the cost in the mid range, and follow the K.I.S.S. principle, However, the bike you are describing will be one of the more powerful bikes around, and I'd expect your costs to go north of $7000 very quickly.

It's funny you mention this. It didn't occur to me before that I have only been eLurking in the extreme eBike threads. Therefore, I got the impression that the bike objectives about were moderate since I didn't want to go 65MPH! Lol... In retrospect now, I see your point. This is not middle of the road. Without saying it out loud, I was secretly hoping to come in at the $7k mark, but didn't want to say it in case I blew that budget! For that to happen, I would probably have to spec a bike at $5k b/c projects never come in on budget for me.... (I really hope the wife doesn't read this part!) :wink:

Now to the crux of the issue you bring up. What I really NEED is a guess at best for now since I don't have an eBike, or even a serious MTB right now (cheap "Full Suspension" Schwinn not included).

Build a simple $1000 bike first. 500 watts, 25mph, 48 volts. Slap it on a hard tail mountain bike and ride. If you really want the big bike, then the experience you get from building the small bike may save you several thousand in build costs. Many have gone this route, and found it really does save them time and money later.

This is actually an excellent idea for me. I was planning on building my wife a complimentary, yet much less powerful bike for more mild forest trails (still off road with roots and rocks but not drops). Once again in retrospect, it makes more sense to build that one first. Because of the more reasonable components of that build, I bet I could have it done before I finish design of the bigger bike. At risk of misdirecting my own thread to a different build, can an entry level Full Suspension bike built for me, (6'2", 210 lbs.) be passed on to her (5'8", 130lbs) with just a lighter rear spring and lowering the seat?

...take a look at the Stealth Bomber, and the Zero FX. An ebike build like you described can easily climb up to their price range.

The Stealth Bomber is the one that got me excited about what the eBikes can do. Though it is a cool bike, I don't need the super high speed bike. I am a new off-road rider and will stick to the speeds appropriate for my skill level. That being said, my local trails have a good bit of elevation up and down along a steep creek bed so low speed torque IS needed.... A used turn key Bomber is pretty appealing but it seems that a custom bike can be had for the same price, with better performance. Of course that doesn't count the hundreds of hours likely necessary for the build (I am probably already in 50 hours just in reading and research).

I did consider the Zero FX also but I crossed it off of the list as it didn't meet my missions.
- For local park trail riding, it REALLY fails the "bicycle" ruse on park trails (sure to get me a ticket)
- For off-road motorcycle trails, a similarly capable low maintenance 4 stroke can be had much cheaper. Since there is no need to be "quiet" on those trails, the Zero FX doesn't really have to much of an advantage besides low end torque.

 

[Mammalian04]

Sounds like you need the off road version of the zero motorcycle. Or at least their cheaper slower motocross version.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/
http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus-specifications/

Thanks for the input myly. I definitely like the appeal of the Zero's factory built package. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit my local park objective, and it doesn't fulfill the Motorcycle trail mission in a cost effective manner. I am not sure what role it would play for me except having a cool electric dirt bike.

Or get a stealth bomber if you still want an ebike vs motorcycle.

This was (is) a heavy consideration for me. The Bomber fills "most" objective for me and it seems guys like ES member "Rix" have upgraded them to a rig similar to what I am looking for.

 

[PRW]

Why don't you look at a Stealth Fighter rather than the Bomber? Also, if you are buying used, price in to possibly replace batteries

 

[Mammalian04]

Why don't you look at a Stealth Fighter rather than the Bomber? Also, if you are buying used, price in to possibly replace batteries

I did consider the Fighter as well, but I like the range and extra "grunt" of the Bomber's bigger motor and batteries, even though I don't need the extra top speed.

I think I recall an early production Bomber going for under $4k a few weeks ago at a shop in Southern California. Batteries were shot but it still seemed like a good deal. If I could replicate the deal, I would go that route. In absence of it, I am headed down the path of my own custom build (whether that be a starter build that has been mentioned today, or a full fledged build).

 

[brumbrum]

Other option,

Buy a pre-used down hill mtb, get is fully serviced.
Go to EM3ev on-line shop......
Buy MAC 10T rear motor with upgraded phase wires laced into an Alex 32 rim with sapim spokes. Add to the shopping cart a 9fet infineon controller, a 7 speed DNP free wheel and a half twist throttle and a rear torque arm, and a cycle analyst. Consider one of their batteries too, or build your own.

Job done!

Probably get all this including bike for way under 2500 dollars easy. That will be a good easy project to start with. If it does not float your boat, pass to the wife and buy a pre-made crazy man bike like the ones mentioned in earlier posts.