cwah
100 MW
Mammalian04 said:
No I can't see myself unfolding and folding the bike few times a day. Seems way too complicated on a montague
Raptor 140 - Full Suspension eBike Build Thread
- Thread starter Mammalian04
- Start date
No I can't see myself unfolding and folding the bike few times a day. Seems way too complicated on a montague
cwah
100 MW
brumbrum said:Other option,
Buy a pre-used down hill mtb, get is fully serviced.
Go to EM3ev on-line shop......
Buy MAC 10T rear motor with upgraded phase wires laced into an Alex 32 rim with sapim spokes. Add to the shopping cart a 9fet infineon controller, a 7 speed DNP free wheel and a half twist throttle and a rear torque arm, and a cycle analyst. Consider one of their batteries too, or build your own.
Job done!
Probably get all this including bike for way under 2500 dollars easy. That will be a good easy project to start with. If it does not float your boat, pass to the wife and buy a pre-made crazy man bike like the ones mentioned in earlier posts.
Mac motor isn't powerful enough! And it's noisy
Powerful enough for off road use. How fast do you want to go through the woods with a twitchy ebike throttle before losing control and hitting a tree? I am going purely on biking in a forest over rock gardens, through deep mud, .....and then there is the skittish dry patches. I suppose it all depends on what trails consist of and what trails are to differing people and differing places.
20mph is the max I go on the trails I ride on. Any faster and I won't be able to stop fast enough without hitting a tree. Torque is more fun for sure. So on my bike I have my speed limiter set to 20mph and disable the torque limiter for trail use. The throttle isn't twitchy when the speed is limited to 20mph. It does require to have the CA3 for this setup.
Mammalian04
100 kW
I am now wondering if I should call this the Full Suspension DOUBLE eBike Build, but that would probably scare me into realizing the magnitude of 2 builds at once.
Without dragging everyone through the mud of another "priorities" list. Lets just call the potential 2nd bike "Full Suspension eBike Build - Light" I think my priorities will be much the same, just to a lesser scale, to bring cost and simplicity down. From the onset, I expect that a donor bike is the first order of business. I have to admit this is going to be a challenge without any knowledge of MTB brands and models out there. I am hopeful though since I would think there are a lot of used MTBs in the Austin area.
Without dragging everyone through the mud of another "priorities" list. Lets just call the potential 2nd bike "Full Suspension eBike Build - Light" I think my priorities will be much the same, just to a lesser scale, to bring cost and simplicity down. From the onset, I expect that a donor bike is the first order of business. I have to admit this is going to be a challenge without any knowledge of MTB brands and models out there. I am hopeful though since I would think there are a lot of used MTBs in the Austin area.
- Is a torquey, 20mph by motor only, full suspension, eBike really doable for $1-2k range?
Are there some frames that make better eBike donors than others (e.g. frames with a flat top rail for attaching battery bag, large triangle, some minimum swingarm width, heavier duty shocks/forks/disk brakes to handle the extra weight, etc)?
You can always build a mid drive setup. Decent bike with enough space inside the triangle for a Revelate Tangle Frame Bag. You can get the middrive setup from forum member Lightingrods. 12fet controller is enough. Zombies throttle tamer, good half throttle and strong chain. On 14s you can to 27mph or gear it down some more for 20mph torque monster.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Thanks Snellemin,
I'll check out some Lightningrods threads on his mid-drive package, and what it can mount to.
I'll check out some Lightningrods threads on his mid-drive package, and what it can mount to.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Thoughts on applying Lightningrods full mid-drive kit to any of these?
Used Bike Options
If I am headed down the wrong path on bike selection, please share thoughts as well. I don't want to buy a $1500 bike if a $200 Schwinn is where I should be for this first build.
Used Bike Options
2008 KHS XC Team - Looks like a decent option. Contacted the seller about photo/description mismatch
OR
2010 Trek Fuel EX 9
OR
2003 Cannondale 500 - Older Cheaper Option
OR
2004 Kona Coiler Dee-Lux - $700
EDIT: Eliminated Options- 2007 Giant Warp
Specialized FSR XC Pro - EDIT: Eliminated
- 2007 Giant Warp
If I am headed down the wrong path on bike selection, please share thoughts as well. I don't want to buy a $1500 bike if a $200 Schwinn is where I should be for this first build.
You want a frame that has maximum space in the frame triangle so the battery can be placed there for best balance and best low centre of gravity. The KHS looks well spec'd with XTR equipment and has a large space for battery. Make sure there is room for nice fat tyres especially on the rear. 2.5 to 2.7" wide would be good. I cannot comment on the price due to being in the UK and not knowing the KHS brand, but the parts sound good. A large size frame would allow for more battery space.
Just an extra note, on closer inspection some of the written specs don't match the photo. The phot shows Fox forks which are better than rock shoxs from my experience. They have smoother damping. The brake levers show avid and not xtr.
Just an extra note, on closer inspection some of the written specs don't match the photo. The phot shows Fox forks which are better than rock shoxs from my experience. They have smoother damping. The brake levers show avid and not xtr.
Obiwan007
1 kW
OK, I'm gonna weigh in here even though I still consider myself a recovering noob to some extent. I get the feeling from your posts mammalian that the PROJECT is half the fun. I know that it is for me. 1 1/2 years ago I didn't know the first thing about e-bikes, but like you I was excited to build my dream bike. After much reading and plenty of hand holding I set out to do just that and built this bike:
Here is the build thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46942
I love this bike and the project was more fun than the law allows but by the end of the build I knew that it was NOT my dream bike. I could hardly wait to get started on a high power build. Just two months ago I finished building this:
Build thread here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55605
I learned so much and had so much fun building them. I have been using it as my daily commuter just fine for a couple months now and just Yesterday I climbed a medium long very steep hill pulling 5000 watts and got it all the way up to a chilly 78 degrees C. I focused on a bullet proof design that would be durable as all hell and think I got pretty close. Price tag including charger? $2800.00. But I said all of that to say this; with a little patients, willingness to do your own work, quality pre-owned components and a dream, you can build something AWSOME in your price range or far less. Everyone here is giving you good advice and if you are like I was you'll need it. But AWSOME can be done for far less than $7k. Obiwan
Here is the build thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46942
I love this bike and the project was more fun than the law allows but by the end of the build I knew that it was NOT my dream bike. I could hardly wait to get started on a high power build. Just two months ago I finished building this:
Build thread here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55605
I learned so much and had so much fun building them. I have been using it as my daily commuter just fine for a couple months now and just Yesterday I climbed a medium long very steep hill pulling 5000 watts and got it all the way up to a chilly 78 degrees C. I focused on a bullet proof design that would be durable as all hell and think I got pretty close. Price tag including charger? $2800.00. But I said all of that to say this; with a little patients, willingness to do your own work, quality pre-owned components and a dream, you can build something AWSOME in your price range or far less. Everyone here is giving you good advice and if you are like I was you'll need it. But AWSOME can be done for far less than $7k. Obiwan
Mammalian04
100 kW
motomech
10 MW
Well, I haVE read thru this entire thread, and I can't get over your desire to bring your 2 year old with you while trail riding 
Very bad idea.
I have been riding off-road for decades and trust me, crashes are part of the activity. More often that not, they are slower-speed "get-offs", but still, how bounce-proof is your two year old? You might think that all you need to do is slow down to be safe, but it doesn't work that way. Going slower can lead to a get-off, as you don't have the momentum to carry you thru a difficult section.
Better to wait til he is 6 or 7 and build him his own Ebike.
I even have reservations about bringing the wife along.
Years ago, I bought my Ex a sm. dirtbike so she could ride around the sandpit while I was riding with my buds. Now, she was a great athelete, but turned out to be rather crash prone while on two-wheels in the dirt. Although she was never seriously hurt, I would feel bad for pushing"" her into riding when she got banged up.
Just saying
the best riding is when you have an equal rider(more or less), on an equal bike, so you can "play race"and have the security of having someone there to help you out of the boonies if hurt(or vicsa versa).
disclaimer: Yes, that's me riding two girls(sans helmets) on a trail bike, so do as I say and not as I do 8)
Very bad idea.
I have been riding off-road for decades and trust me, crashes are part of the activity. More often that not, they are slower-speed "get-offs", but still, how bounce-proof is your two year old? You might think that all you need to do is slow down to be safe, but it doesn't work that way. Going slower can lead to a get-off, as you don't have the momentum to carry you thru a difficult section.
Better to wait til he is 6 or 7 and build him his own Ebike.
I even have reservations about bringing the wife along.
Years ago, I bought my Ex a sm. dirtbike so she could ride around the sandpit while I was riding with my buds. Now, she was a great athelete, but turned out to be rather crash prone while on two-wheels in the dirt. Although she was never seriously hurt, I would feel bad for pushing"" her into riding when she got banged up.
Just saying
the best riding is when you have an equal rider(more or less), on an equal bike, so you can "play race"and have the security of having someone there to help you out of the boonies if hurt(or vicsa versa).
disclaimer: Yes, that's me riding two girls(sans helmets) on a trail bike, so do as I say and not as I do 8)
Drunkskunk
100 GW
with the 19 or 21 inch frame, you cpuld mount batteries in the triangle. much harder on the smallish 17. but otherwise, a great bike. Its a close sibling of the kona stinky, a bike many have converted, myself included.Mammalian04 said:
only real tricky bit is the torque arms. the drop puts are in an odd recess. it makes custom ones work very well, but stock ones tricky to fit.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Thanks for the perspective guys. I know about "pushing" the wife. She got her motor license and then lost interest after a small tip over.
I think she'll be ok on a bike. When younger, she was never afraid of wheelies and no hand balance riding so I think light trail riding would be ok for her.
My son will only be brought along on the super light trails (or not at all if he doesn't like it). I am an over protective dad so I have that one covered (I think).
Good point on the smaller frame. I thought the 17" would be a good compromise for wife sized bike that I could also squeeze on to in a pinch, but the batteries may be the limiting factor. I guess I should have her try out a 19" at a local shop.
Finding the right donor bike is proving tougher than I thought!
I think she'll be ok on a bike. When younger, she was never afraid of wheelies and no hand balance riding so I think light trail riding would be ok for her.
My son will only be brought along on the super light trails (or not at all if he doesn't like it). I am an over protective dad so I have that one covered (I think).
Good point on the smaller frame. I thought the 17" would be a good compromise for wife sized bike that I could also squeeze on to in a pinch, but the batteries may be the limiting factor. I guess I should have her try out a 19" at a local shop.
Finding the right donor bike is proving tougher than I thought!
Mammalian04
100 kW
Well, here we go! Against the better judgement, warning, advice, and vast experience of everyone here, I am now building 2 Raptors! I am prepared for the "I told you so" because I am bound to mess something up soon.
I have 2 sets of wheels and Cromotors going on their way to Voltriders. One set is 19x1.4 and the other is 19x1.85 (solely because my wife wanted blue wheels and I can't get those in 1.4). I nice bonus will be the comparison in handling between the two.
I also submitted my order for the two bikes (one white with blue accessories and one black with blue accessories). I don't have a confirmation and invoice to pay Qulbix yet but hopefully that will come soon.
I have 2 sets of wheels and Cromotors going on their way to Voltriders. One set is 19x1.4 and the other is 19x1.85 (solely because my wife wanted blue wheels and I can't get those in 1.4).
I nice bonus will be the comparison in handling between the two.I also submitted my order for the two bikes (one white with blue accessories and one black with blue accessories). I don't have a confirmation and invoice to pay Qulbix yet but hopefully that will come soon.
cal3thousand
10 MW
Sounds like an interesting build thread. You have quite a nice list of components there.
One thing that comes to mind is your cell choice. I don't want to nit pick, but just be informed that Sony VTC5 and Samsung 25R are not LiFePO4 chemistries. They are LiPo chemistries.
They are lithium polymer cells just wrapped in an 18650 can. They aren't 'RC LiPo' (aka the fun Hobby King stuff), but they are LiPo but just more stable than RC LiPo.
One thing that comes to mind is your cell choice. I don't want to nit pick, but just be informed that Sony VTC5 and Samsung 25R are not LiFePO4 chemistries. They are LiPo chemistries.
They are lithium polymer cells just wrapped in an 18650 can. They aren't 'RC LiPo' (aka the fun Hobby King stuff), but they are LiPo but just more stable than RC LiPo.
Mammalian04
100 kW
cal3thousand said:
Thanks cal3thousand. I have not really made battery choices yet so I am still a bit ignorant on the topic. I think still think I will want to go with LiFePO4 for safety margin in the end.
I have changed the Specs post to reflect your input. Thanks!
cal3thousand
10 MW
Mammalian04 said:
Cool! And those cells that you originally listed are quite safe compared to RC LiPo. Safe enough that OEMs are offering them in consumer ebikes.
Mammalian04
100 kW
To keep my battery discussions from cluttering other threads, I am moving posts here.
My battery approach now is to go with 20s6p of 25r cells for each bike initially. When a better battery comes out, I will put both 20s6p packs into one bike for 20s12p, and then buy a new pack for with the improve battery technology.
So, that means the packs that I build will need to be easily combined at a later date. Using Supower, they quoted $6.5 USD (including spacers and some spot welding). However, with shipping, it is $7.56 per cell! That seems really high. If I proceed with Supower, I will have them break the packs into smaller 5s6p groups to keep shipping cost down.
5s6p arrangement with tab welding
This is what the total package would look like in the frame with 20s6p
And when top down view at 20s6p and at 20s12p when packs from the 2 bikes get combined into one
I am having a hard time swallowing the Supower pricing ($1815 shipped) for 240 cells when the other reliable source is 3.95 SHIPPED ($848) for bare cells. For the difference of $867 difference, I could buy the nickel strips, spacers, AND the decent spot welder Andrey uses.
My battery approach now is to go with 20s6p of 25r cells for each bike initially. When a better battery comes out, I will put both 20s6p packs into one bike for 20s12p, and then buy a new pack for with the improve battery technology.
So, that means the packs that I build will need to be easily combined at a later date. Using Supower, they quoted $6.5 USD (including spacers and some spot welding). However, with shipping, it is $7.56 per cell! That seems really high. If I proceed with Supower, I will have them break the packs into smaller 5s6p groups to keep shipping cost down.
5s6p arrangement with tab welding
This is what the total package would look like in the frame with 20s6p
And when top down view at 20s6p and at 20s12p when packs from the 2 bikes get combined into one
I am having a hard time swallowing the Supower pricing ($1815 shipped) for 240 cells when the other reliable source is 3.95 SHIPPED ($848) for bare cells. For the difference of $867 difference, I could buy the nickel strips, spacers, AND the decent spot welder Andrey uses.
Thanks for all the help in these forums.Here is a very inexpensive, decent Full Suspension option. This is a 2007 Giant Trance with an HPC 1500w/48v 10aH kit on it, uses a Crystalyte hub motor 7spd. These DW link suspension bikes fit the controller and battery bag just fine - this is a medium frame, maybe an 18" so a larger medium frame. I bought this HPC kit used for $1500 - installed on the red KHS Alite 150 with 400 miles on it that HPC used to have on their website. Worked well and I put 600 miles on it as a hard tail, but I am on dirt for a lot of my work commute, and these these easily can sustain mid-20's for 20mile round trip commutes if you pedal with. Speed makes small ripples and washboard on a hardtail miserable.
I found the Trance on craigslist. Was looking at Trek Fuel, Scalpel's, and some KHS that had the dw link. This was $300 as a complete bike, it had no derailleurs on it for some reason. I put it back together with parts I had so am $1800 into the ride, and should get $200 back out of the KHS sold complete and ridable. I have 400 miles on the Trance swap and it is way more comfortable to ride.
This kit is heavy - and pushes the front end around so not a perfect trail-bike. It is great for regional trail and some single track, but the hub motor is heavy and probably will overtorque the rear wheel spokes. Plus, the battery is up high so your center of gravity is higher than a crank drive/integrated controller setup, with a battery on the downtube. But, this was cheap, works flawlessly, is super fast (38 on the flats), and has great range. Find a Trance and bolt a kit on it!
Mammalian04
100 kW
Nice! Thanks for the input. I am getting parts frantically but I don't think my build is going to make my Yellowstone trip. I might just buy a used all mountain bike and pedal my way around. HUGE disappointment.
Mammalian04
100 kW
Already walked it. Now I'd like to ride in non-sweaty comfort....
I hear ya on rushing. Haste makes waste. I had a good time line but getting parts from ebike vendors is like Buddhist training for patience and forgiveness.....
I hear ya on rushing. Haste makes waste. I had a good time line but getting parts from ebike vendors is like Buddhist training for patience and forgiveness.....
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