Recommendations for a rim

[Chalo]

You keep on bringing up thick spokes slackening under load.....but this only happens when using rims with poor radial stiffness.

That's not true. No matter how stiff the rim, it flexes some amount. A 2.7mm spoke has 2.25X the cross-sectional area of a 1.8mm spoke, so it will slacken at 44% of the load required to slacken the thinner spoke, given the same spoke tension. A stiffer rim increases the required force to reach that threshold, but it's still 44% of whatever it takes to slacken the thinner spoke.

Why don't you put on a couple hundred extra pounds of body weight and build a few thousand wheels, then get back to us with what you've learned? I think you'll figure out what I have learned.

 

[nicobie]

You keep on bringing up thick spokes slackening under load.....but this only happens when using rims with poor radial stiffness. Choosing those types of rims is going to force you into always compromising your lateral stiffness which is especially bad if you using a hub motor with narrow flange spacing like the OP is using.

Yes, but I don't like to run motorcycle rims on my bicycle.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Yes, but I don't like to run motorcycle rims on my bicycle.

Son, there are a wide range of bicycle rims to choose from with varying levels of radial stiffness. The NoBS rim I mentioned earlier in this thread is a bicycle rim that achieves a higher level of radial stiffness by using a triple wall construction (other rims increase radial stiffness by using a Deep V construction). It also has a thicker than normal spoke bed to handle thicker spokes. Together the heavy duty triple wall construction plus thick spoke bed allows velocity to spec the use of up to 12 gauge spokes (using a custom order factory drilling). This isn't a motorcycle set-up!

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Why don't you put on a couple hundred extra pounds of body weight and build a few thousand wheels, then get back to us with what you've learned? I think you'll figure out what I have learned.

Chalo, you build wheels for trikes using single wall rims and hubs with very wide flange spacing and no dish. This is essentially the opposite of what we are discussing here.

Furthermore, ebikekit.com has been using 12 gauge non butted spokes on their 9C hub motor kits (which is the same hub used by the OP) for almost forever. This with only a eyeletted double wall rim. Tested by Dogman Dan as well on his cargo bikes.

Edit: link to ebikekit.com direct drive rear wheel (showing rim, spokes and nipples used)---> rear-500-1000w-e-bikekit-direct-drive-motor-wheel-only

 

[Chalo]

Chalo, you build wheels for trikes using single wall rims and hubs with very wide flange spacing and no dish. This is essentially the opposite of what we are discussing here.

That's cute that you think I could build thousands of wheels over a 35 year period and only build wide dishless wheels. Those are just the ones that routinely carry 700-800 pounds per wheel. Reliably. On bicycle rims.

I have also rectified many dozens of folks' wheels that were problematic because of too-thick spokes. But don't listen to me and my experience. Build your own and see what works.

I encourage you to speak from experience and not from fanciful ideas.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

But don't listen to me and my experience.

I don't because the process you use to come your conclusions is always flawed in some way. A good example was your idea to take the wheels off a classic beach cruiser and replace them with smaller wheels. This so I could "experience" how a lower center of gravity made the bike unstable. Of course, I immediately declined your "build idea" because I knew the real reason for the instability came from the reduced trail caused by the smaller wheels not the lower center of gravity caused by using the smaller wheels.

 

[raylo32]

I have really good luck with 26" Mavic 221s. I have a set that has ceramic braking surfaces on my Photon bike. I have had these wheels forever and used to ride them on the rocky singletrack around here and they are bulletproof... and the braking tracks don't wear down like bare or machined braking surfaces. And they brake just as well.

 

[Chalo]

I don't because the process you use to come your conclusions is always flawed in some way. A good example was your idea to take the wheels off a classic beach cruiser and replace them with smaller wheels. This so I could "experience" how a lower center of gravity made the bike unstable.

You know I suggested that method because you seem technically very incompetent, and I thought that was one experiment you would be capable of actually doing if you wanted to. While not perfect, it's illustrative of the principles and a good way to learn things by doing, rather than by parroting ideas you found somewhere but don't fully understand.

 

[E-HP]

Yes, but I don't like to run motorcycle rims on my bicycle.

Son, there are a wide range of bicycle rims to choose from with varying levels of radial stiffness.

You two are related??

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

You know I suggested that method because you seem technically very incompetent, and I thought that was one experiment you would be capable of actually doing if you wanted to.

Kid, I had already schooled you on at least 40 topics previous to suggestion you made.

 

[Chalo]

Kid, I had already schooled you on at least 40 topics previous to suggestion you made.

Ah! More fanciful but errant notions.

Try reporting about things you've actually done, with actual results, before you continue offering your "wisdom" to people who know better than you do. How about showing us one of your projects?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Ah! More fanciful but errant notions.

Oh let's see besides your absolutely foolish claim that "lower center of gravity on a bicycle hurts stability" I have had to correct you on rotational inertia, rolling resistance of wide tires vs. narrow tires, trail, greasing intervals of geared electric motors (specifically the cyclone) and a whole bunch of others that will no doubt come to me as the evening progresses. However, my favorite post of yours (which was just so awful it was sadly comedy gold) was your post below about tubeless tires:

Myths about tires (part 1)

For me, moto rims and tires win hands down simply because they work. Shinko 241’s are just amazing on my 125 lbs “17 KW 65+ mph bicycle!” I’m a pretty smart person and know that the rotational inertia is higher which does slow my acceleration/braking but, and I mean a huge “I like big butts”...

endless-sphere.com

Quote below by Chalo which is found in link above:

Tubeless is a fad that will either develop to the point it doesn't require sealant, or it will go away and won't be missed. How many motor vehicles use tires that depend on liquid sealant to work adequately?

You actually thought tubeless tires were a fad and that they haven't even been used (without sealant) in cars, trucks and motorcycles yet!! ROFL!!!

 

[Chalo]

Oh let's see besides your absolutely foolish claim that "lower center of gravity on a bicycle hurts stability" I have had to correct you on rotational inertia, rolling resistance of wide tires vs. narrow tires, trail, greasing intervals of geared electric motors (specifically the cyclone) and a whole bunch of others that will no doubt come to me as the evening progresses. However, my favorite post of yours (which was just so awful it was sadly comedy gold) was your post below:

Myths about tires (part 1)

For me, moto rims and tires win hands down simply because they work. Shinko 241’s are just amazing on my 125 lbs “17 KW 65+ mph bicycle!” I’m a pretty smart person and know that the rotational inertia is higher which does slow my acceleration/braking but, and I mean a huge “I like big butts”...

endless-sphere.com

You actually thought tubeless tires were a fad and that they haven't even been used in cars, trucks and motorcycles yet!! ROFl!!!

Reading through that thread, you come off looking like an even bigger fool than you do in this one.

Prove me wrong. Show us something clever you have done.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Prove me wrong.

I do it every single time. It's so surprisingly easy too. I
I'm like 50-0 against you in arguments.

With that noted, let's talk a bit more about what happened in this thread since unlike you I actually like to help people.

OP has bought Sun Ryno XL rim which is a fairly lightweight rim for something with 24mm internal diameter. This because it only weighs 550 grams in 26" size. He has paired this rim with Chinese 12 gauge spokes and was OK on smooth road until he hit gravel at which point he noticed spoke loosening. No mention of whether or not bicycle wheel was stress relieved prior to this happening. Since he is a new builder it might have been he didn't do this during the build process which would explain the spoke loosening. He also did not mention the initial spoke tension.....but if he didn't stress relieve whatever tension was achieved during the build pretty much goes out the window anyway. Also no mention of what type of nipple he used and whether he used a thread compound on the spoke or not.

 

[Chalo]

I do it every single time.

Do what? Emit more hot gas?

Show us something you have actually done. Unless hot gas is the only thing you do.

 

[99t4]

Sorry for the OT but this is really starting to bug me.

What's with the calling thread contributors "Son" and Kid?" Are you trying to impart to yourself some kind of paternal authority status? Should not have to resort to that cheap offensive debate tactic in order to attempt to prove your arguments.

 

[nicobie]

Sorry for the OT but this is really starting to bug me.

What's with the calling thread contributors "Son" and Kid?" Are you trying to impart to yourself some kind of paternal authority status? Should not have to resort to that cheap offensive debate tactic in order to attempt to prove your arguments.

I couldn't agree more. I will not tolerate insulting anyone. If you disagree with somebodys viewpoint simply argue the facts and leave the insults out of it, like Chalo mostly does.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I couldn't agree more. I will not tolerate insulting anyone. If you disagree with somebodys viewpoint simply argue the facts and leave the insults out of it, like Chalo mostly does.

Why don't you complain about Chalo going off topic (and trying to keep it off topic) like right here--> Recommendations for a rim

I resisted. It would have been nice if I could have got some moderation from you.

But instead of thinking of the OP's problem you are instead being sensitive about yourself.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I would prefer that all of you stop writing about 'knowing more than', or much any other 'more than' type statements. I'm concerned I won't hear from people because of this.

I understand you may feel you have more experience, or better thinking, but I won't learn anything from those statements - there is no useful information in them for me.

If someone says something that contradicts your own experience, tell us your experience, and we can try ourselves and find out for ourselves. "I know more" isn't something I can try out.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I would prefer that all of you stop writing about 'knowing more than', or much any other 'more than' type statements. I'm concerned I won't hear from people because of this.

I understand you may feel you have more experience, or better thinking, but I won't learn anything from those statements - there is no useful information in them for me.

If someone says something that contradicts your own experience, tell us your experience, and we can try ourselves and find out for ourselves. "I know more" isn't something I can try out.

You are obviously referring to Chalo in the above post. I and others have complained about this behavior on other occasions and the moderators do nothing. It can even get so bad that Chalo will try to use frame builder experience as a trump card on arguments that have nothing even remotely to do with frame building!

With that noted even though Chalo in this thread claims 2.0/1.8/2.0 butted spokes are ideal for the OP's narrow flange 36 spoke cargo bike if you do your research on what he actually uses on his own cargo bike it is not butted spokes. This on all three versions of his front loader cargo bike (i.e. cycle truck).....the first version which had the BBS02, the second version with the 1500 watt hub motor and even the latest version with the QS 2500 watt hub motor (which even benefits from very wide flange spacing).

No, he is straight gauge spokes on all three of those bikes and not once did he ever write about replacing or wanting to replace them with butted spokes.

The build where is uses 2.0/1.8/2.0 butted spokes is the one for the rear wheels on his trikes. For that build he uses 48 spokes per wheel on a fat bike single wall rim using hubs with very wide flange spacing. This wide flange spacing provides a large bracing angle which aids in lateral stiffness. However, keep in mind a trike operates much different than a bicycle and doesn't need as much lateral stiffness because it doesn't lean into turns under normal circumstances.

Anyways, I'm convinced the OP's main problem probably isn't the Chinese 12 gauge non butted spokes or the lightweight 24mm internal width 26" diameter rim. Though combining flexible rim and stiff spokes is not ideal and can cause spokes to go loose (a point I made in my first post in this thread) I believe the main problem is most likely lack of build quality specifically lack of stress relieving.

 

[Chalo]

I use butted spokes every time I have the choice. Sometimes, especially with hub motors, I have to use a weird spoke length and thus must have them custom cut to length. In those cases usually that means 2.0mm straight or 2.34/2.0mm single butted. Still that's almost twice as elastic as 2.7mm spokes, which are common for hub motor wheels..

 

[E-HP]

I think the PM feature still works since the upgrade, so maybe a good option here.

 

[Chalo]

I think the PM feature still works since the upgrade, so maybe a good option here.

I reckon the ignore feature is a better choice in this case. Thanks for the prompt, though.

 

[nicobie]

I reckon the ignore feature is a better choice in this case. Thanks for the prompt, though.

Yes it is. Glad you used it. It can work both ways too and I think I can do it for you both if necessary.

 

[99t4]

Anyways, I'm convinced the OP's main problem probably isn't the Chinese 12 gauge non butted spokes or the lightweight 24mm internal width 26" diameter rim. Though combining flexible rim and stiff spokes is not ideal and can cause spokes to go loose (a point I made in my first post in this thread) I believe the main problem is most likely lack of build quality specifically lack of stress relieving.

You may be on to something here. OP does not have sufficient funds to purchase components worthy of the extra-heavy duty cycles he subjects them to (high daily mileage, high speeds, rough terrain, heavy loads, etc.) and has suffered several catastrophic failures in the past. Then complains of "cheap (Chinese?) crap" but replaces it with similar?