Thoughts on current UPP batteries

[DICO]

大家好，我不是做广告，也不是解释什么，我只是知道你们对UPP的看法，我是UPP内部的一名电动自行车工程师，我不是来自UPP电池部门，但公司似乎正在这样做，我表示惊喜，因为我们的产品一向性价比高。也许有人会说，我们的电池质量有很大问题。在电池行业，我们都面临着同样的问题。我们想要好的质量和好的保护，所以成本需要提高。发货前，我们会进行2至5次设备老化测试后再发货。如有问题，我们将在车间内进行调查并完成。当然，任何产品都会发生事故和事故。目前，我们的老板在英国，在与英国政府沟通并解释了这起事件后，我们内部认为这是竞争对手联手客户打压UPP。对此，我也希望在本次论坛中得到用户对产品优化的建议，我会反馈给总部。将会进行修改，感谢您的支持！
德科



[Moderator edit: google translation from original Chinese below]
Hello everyone, I am not advertising or explaining anything, I just know what you think about UPP, I am an e-bike engineer within UPP, I am not from the UPP battery department, but the company seems to be doing this, I express surprise , because our products have always been cost-effective. Some people may say that there is a big problem with the quality of our batteries. In the battery industry, we all face the same problem. We want good quality and good protection, so the cost needs to go up. Before shipping, we will conduct 2 to 5 equipment aging tests before shipping. If there is a problem, we will investigate and complete it in the workshop. Of course, accidents and mishaps happen with any product. Currently, our boss is in the UK. After communicating with the British government and explaining this incident, we internally believe that this is a competitor teaming up with customers to suppress UPP. In this regard, I also hope to get users' suggestions on product optimization in this forum, and I will give feedback to the headquarters. Modifications will be made, thank you for your support!
Deco

 

[DICO]

图为我公司开发的电池盒。相信很多朋友都看过。

[Moderator edit: google translation from Chinese below]
The picture shows the battery box developed by our company. I believe many friends have seen it.

 

[E-HP]

A balancing BMS should come standard, not as an option. An option for a Bluetooth BMS would be great.

 

[Chalo]

A balancing BMS should come standard, not as an option. An option for a Bluetooth BMS would be great.

I think cell balancing is a higher priority than other BMS functions, because it's harder for the end user to do manually. A pack without automatic balancing is much more likely to work itself into a dangerously flawed condition.

 

[docw009]

Rate your batteries to pass a short circuit and a crush test. Better yet, get UL approval. Nobody will buy from your competitors if they can't do the same. This is going to happen in the USA, probably all of Europe in the next year,

 

[eMark]

A balancing BMS should come standard, not as an option. An option for a Bluetooth BMS would be great.

not advertising or explaining anything, I just know what you think about UPP, I am an e-bike engineer within UPP, I am not from the UPP battery department, but the company seems to be doing this, I express surprise , because our products have always been cost-effective. Some people may say that there is a big problem with the quality of our batteries. In the battery industry, we all face the same problem. We want good quality and good protection, so the cost needs to go up. Before shipping, we will conduct 2 to 5 equipment aging tests before shipping. If there is a problem, we will investigate and complete it in the workshop. Of course, accidents and mishaps happen with any product. Currently, our boss is in the UK. After communicating with the British government and explaining this incident, we internally believe that this is a competitor teaming up with customers to suppress UPP. In this regard, I also hope to get users' suggestions on product optimization in this forum, and I will give feedback to the headquarters. Modifications will be made, thank you for your support.

The picture shows the battery box developed by our company. I believe many friends have seen it.

Currently a "Balancing BMS" is not available on the less expensive flat rectangular UPP batteries.... just over and under voltage protection. IMO this is ok if A-grade name brand cells are used (e.g. Samsung, LG, etc). Besides the inexpensive balancing BMSs use resistance discharge balancing which can take forever with unbalanced parallel groups. So here's the conundrum ...

No one seems to know for sure it their inexpensive balancing BMS balancing only functions when the cell SOC voltage reaches somewhere be4ween. 4.0-4.1 volts. Not all BMSs are the same thus no one seems to know how long one has to leave the charger on (plugged in) after the green light comes on. Some say with frequent battery use to leave the charger ON for 12-16 hours after green light comes on once a month. However no one seems to does this. Thus the reason to use a so-called SMART BMS with active balancing.

So that's why "active" so-called Smart BMSs are preferred; especially by ebikers that prefer power and speed at or near MCD rating at least 50% of their riding time.

 

[99t4]

No one seems to know for sure it their inexpensive balancing BMS balancing only functions when the cell SOC voltage reaches somewhere be4ween. 4.0-4.1 volts. Not all BMSs are the same thus no one seems to know how long one has to leave the charger on (plugged in) after the green light comes on. Some say with frequent battery use to leave the charger ON for 12-16 hours after green light comes on once a month.

I do have a factory (non-DIY) ebike, a Radwagon v1. IIRC, to balance the battery, they recommend a series of 3 12-hour charging sessions. I don't recall how often that was to be performed.

 

[amberwolf]

I think cell balancing is a higher priority than other BMS functions, because it's harder for the end user to do manually. A pack without automatic balancing is much more likely to work itself into a dangerously flawed condition.

Better yet, use brand new, tested, and matched-characteristics cells capable of easily handling the loads a pack is "rated" for, so that they will remain balanced on their own even without the balancing function. (at least until they age enough to drift apart in characteristics).


And while I'm not a fan of OEM packs that require communications with the system, etc., I don't see much of a problem with the ones that brick themselves when something goes wrong with a cell inside, to prevent a user from continuing to try to use a damaged pack and possibly cause a fire. (doesn't stop them from being foolishly dangerous and bypassing the BMS, etc., because they think the BMS is causing their problem, when in fact it's trying to keep them from having a really really bad day).

 

[docw009]

"No one seems to know for sure it their inexpensive balancing BMS balancing only functions when the cell SOC voltage reaches somewhere be4ween. 4.0-4.1 volts. Not all BMSs are the same thus no one seems to know how long one has to leave the charger on (plugged in) after the green light comes on. Some say with frequent battery use to leave the charger ON for 12-16 hours after green light comes on once a month. However no one seems to does this."

I'd watch the charge current. On a non-balance BMS, the current goes to zero when the charger light goes green. On a balance BMS it would run 70-90 ma and finally drop off.

I also have a couple of BMS that have LED;s that light up when their channel is in bleed mode. However, the quality is dubious, I found some wouldn't balance, One or two channels light briefly, and then the BMS stops charging no matter the state of the other channels.

I have some bluetooth BMS, but have not tried them yet,

 

[amberwolf]

I'd watch the charge current. On a non-balance BMS, the current goes to zero when the charger light goes green. On a balance BMS it would run 70-90 ma and finally drop off.

Which is fine for the knowledgeable who have or are willing/able to buy test equipment...but the vast majority of people need these things to work like their phone--plug it in and when the lightning symbol goes off it's done. A few will be willing to learn electronics to charge their batteries correctly and fully--most will not, and some will not be capable of it for one reason or another, but still need to use these things.

 

[Chalo]

Better yet, use brand new, tested, and matched-characteristics cells capable of easily handling the loads a pack is "rated" for, so that they will remain balanced on their own even without the balancing function. (at least until they age enough to drift apart in characteristics).

I don't know if any pack composed of 10 or more cells in series could stay balanced without intervention if used the way some people use them-- run down until cutoff every time. But they'll tolerate that kind of abuse with just active balancing plus LVC. They won't like it, but they'll tolerate it.

 

[eMark]

I do have a factory (non-DIY) ebike, a Radwagon v1. IIRC, to balance the battery, they recommend a series of 3 12-hour charging sessions. I don't recall how often that was to be performed.

My Liberty Trike comes with a 36v battery that resembles a UPP battery. It's likely that it's a UPP custom made battery. Five years ago the Owner of LT recommended leaving the charger remain ON 12-16 hrs (after the green light comes on) once a month.

In his recent updated youtube he now recommends dong this for 3-4 hours twice a month (beginning at 3:20) and explains why not for 12-16 hrs (even though it may take that long to balance the cells of an aging battery.

He refers to this procedure as a "maintenance charge or balancing charge - at least for another 3 hours" ... "every couple weeks"

i only give this custom UPP battery a FULL 42V charge once a month followed by the above maintenance/balancing charge for 4-6 hrs. The rest of the time I only charge 90% (41.0V) and DOD no lower than 32.0V to prolong cycle life. Also i don't abuse the battery with Maximum Continuous Discharges more than 10-15 seconds and then infrequently. The cells are off-brand Chinese cells, but believe them to be A grade as the battery is still holding good capacity.

 

[neptronix]

I google translated OP's posts..

My background: i am a business person and ebike builder. I have worked with, and for ebike companies.

UPP needs to improve quality and safety as much as possible if they want to survive regulations changes in the west. USA will probably be requiring UL/UN certification for all batteries soon. The rest of the english speaking world will probably follow this way.

If i was the president of UPP, here is what i would do:
- immediately stop advertising/selling lower quality packs to the west to lower the negative reputation
- immediately work on UL/UN certification of batteries for the future
- improve safety and quality as much as possible, learn from good quality products

Of course the price has to increase, but someday there will never be a market for middle or low quality batteries in the west. I would prepare for that right now.

 

[neptronix]

He refers to this procedure as a "maintenance charge or balancing charge - at least for another 3 hours" ... "every couple weeks"

This huge amount of balancing needed as the pack ages indicates:
- Not well matched cells from the factory
- The BMS drawing it's energy from cells unevenly and wearing them unevenly as a result
- A really slow balancing circuit

..or some combination of the above 3

I can tell you, extremely well matched cells can retain their balance without balancing for, at best, multiple years, at average, a year.

 

[amberwolf]

If the BMS was setup (as is done on large EVs and some other commercial products, AFAIK) with an LVC above absolute minimum (as controllers typically have, but at cell level inside the BMS), it would help. An HVC below absolute max would also probably help.

But starting with matched, identical-characteristics cells would be a prerequisite for a pack's cells to stay balanced and equally-performing.

Unfortunatley most battery and cell vendors' definition of "matched" tends to be "well, they're the same voltage when we ship them" (which is usually a storage voltage, where even badly unbalanced/unmatched cells could be very close), and "we guarantee less than (some value) internal resistance". Neither of which is "matched"; neither says they are identical characteristics, and strongly indicates likelihood of very unmatched cells.




Only tangentially relevant, but the "ancient" EIG C020 cells I have been using for years, that are themselves probably a decade and a half old (were used when I got them), still stay balanced within a hundredth of a volt across all the cells (measured with a Fluke 77-IIIA) at full or near-empty or between, no BMS, no intervention, just occasional curiosity checks.

Mind you I very very rarely run them down to empty, and they *have* aged such that they are no longer capable of their 5C rating, and even 1C gives too much voltage sag for my preference (2C is pretty bad, but only lasts a few seconds at a time at most). But they still sag the same amount at the same time, (as measured with a "balance checker" during a ride, and the Fluke with repeated measurements with a drag/brake-load on the motor wheel...not recently, but the last static check 2-3 months back still showed balance, including during charge at 0.25C, so probably still are under load as well).

Too bad the company isn't still around making these things or their technological descendants, because they did a pretty good job. :/

 

[eMark]

If the BMS was setup (as is done on large EVs and some other commercial products, AFAIK) with an LVC above absolute minimum (as controllers typically have, but at cell level inside the BMS), it would help. An HVC below absolute max would also probably help.

Because inexpensive resistnace discharge BMSs take so long to balance UPP apparently decided to no longer include a
balancing feature with their inexpensive BMSs in their batteries. The inexpensive BMSs they use provides the following protection ...
... "a 30A BMS protective plate, prevent over charge, over discharge, over current and short circuit protection"

I can tell you, extremely well matched cells can retain their balance without balancing for, at best, multiple years, at average, a year.

Maybe only a year if borderline abused (e.g. prolonged MCD rides at FULL charge until LVC of 3.0V )

One really doesn't know how "Well-Matched" are the cells until several cycles or many cycles. Thus the need for a so-called SMART BMS. The type of cycles that may border on what i'd consider borderline abuse (MCD). ... When i said my UPP (going on 5 years) still has "good capacity" i should have said is it still has "usable capacity". I'm actually hoping it will die this year so i can remove the cell pack from the cast aluminun housing for cell diagnostic. The Liberty Trikes battery cast aluminium housing is exactly the same (idential} to my UPP 10Ah 36v battery with same slide-in mount plate So far both are performing ok, but only give them a 90% charge and don't abuse them with MCD riding. I'm an Easy Rider.

Even with well-matched cells the use of a SMART active balancing BMS can help maintain well-matched cells ALAP
(far better then a UPP non-balancing BMS is oneself as one's own best BMS for manual balancing ... as needed).

 

[tomjasz]

I google translated OP's posts..

My background: i am a business person and ebike builder. I have worked with, and for ebike companies.

UPP needs to improve quality and safety as much as possible if they want to survive regulations changes in the west. USA will probably be requiring UL/UN certification for all batteries soon. The rest of the english speaking world will probably follow this way.

If i was the president of UPP, here is what i would do:
- immediately stop advertising/selling lower quality packs to the west to lower the negative reputation
- immediately work on UL/UN certification of batteries for the future
- improve safety and quality as much as possible, learn from good quality products

Of course the price has to increase, but someday there will never be a market for middle or low quality batteries in the west. I would prepare for that right now.

We tried very hard to work with UPP and it leader, Richie, going back almost a decade. Actually just after I joined Doug at California eBike. Just after the fiasco you and I shared with the nutter. UPP and Richie has been aware of the issues and chooses to stay on his current course. I'm confident in saying most China vendors want money NOW and aren't much concerned about the future. Were they concerned they'd have followed your suggestion a decade ago!

 

[tomjasz]

Because inexpensive resistnace discharge BMSs take so long to balance UPP aparently decided to no longer include a
balancing feature with the BMSs in their less expensive batteries. theinexpensive BMS they use does offer some protection ...
... "a 30A BMS protective plate, prevent over charge, over discharge, over current and short circuit protection" ...


Maybe only a year if borderline abused (prolonged MCD rides at FULL charge and cell LVC of 3.0V )

One really doesn't know how "Well-Matched" are the cells until after several or many cycles. And the type of cycles that may border on what i'd consider borderline abuse (MCD). ... When i said my UPP has many cycles (going on 5 years) that it still has good capacity ... i should have said is it still has "usable" capacity for short errands. I'm actually hoping it will die this year so i can remove the cell pack from the cast aluminun housing for a cell diagnostic. The aluminium housing is exactly the same (idential} to my UPP 10Ah 36v slide-in battery. So far both are performing ok, but then i only give them a 90% charge and don't abuse them with MCD riding.

Even with well-matched cells the use of a SMART active balancing BMS can help maintain well-matched cells ALAP

You are a gentle user. Push UPP batteries to the level one might push a EM#ev battery and you'll soon see the difference. I have a dozen or so UPP BMS but we decided that repairs were to risky and not worth the time. Doug sold dozens if not more UPP batteries, and you are the odd man out. Failure rates were incredibly high!

 

[tomjasz]

I missed the UPP employee post. What a bunch of shite! I know for a FACT that UPP batteries have a high failure rate. Failures where the pack just quit were common, and we also saw fires. When the courts couldn't touch UPP victims lawyered up and USA shop insurance paid out.

and as usual, here come the one battery owners proclaiming their success with UPP and even believing the China cells used are grade A. Based on? SPECULATION!

 

[tomjasz]

My Liberty Trike comes with a 36v battery that resembles a UPP battery.

Has Jason confirmed the battery source? How does it resemble a UPP? UPP uses that same Hailong(SHAN SHAN) and Reention cases everyone else does. Have you opened the case? What color is the cardboard?

 

[eMark]

Doubt Jason (CEO of EBT) would say ... so never asked. When a LT customer needs a replacement or a second battery they could save at least $100 by buying similar Ah battery from UPP. If UPP the LT battery is a custom UPP design just for LT with BMS balancng feature, etc. I like the charger with its voltge trim adjustment. Is it worth the extra cost of a similar Ah UPP .... maybe, maybe not.

Yes, ii've opened the case. It doesn't use stiff cardboard. The Chinese cells are adjacent each other with a brown protective fiber sleeve. The cell pack is wrapped in a brown thick paper cushion. Would like to believe that the quality of the LT battery is a step or two better better than the quality of a less expensive Ah comparable UPP battery

YES! We all can agree that UPP batteries are inferior when it compared to the qualiity of EM3ev batteries using well-matched brand name A-grade cells

 

[eMark]

UPP uses that same Hailong(SHAN SHAN) and Reention cases everyone else does.

The UPP batteries i'm comparing to the LT battery (with identical aluminium cast housing) is NOT a Hailong case. Doesn't look anything like a Hailong case as you can see ... https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/t7wAAOSwPBNhjIpz/s-l140.webp

Yes, you can buy this UPP battery from ebay or amazon via another supplieror brand, but the rectangular cast aluminium housing with plastic end caps on-off switch, etc is the same UPP housing design ...

Amazon.com

UPP may also be sold under another brand name, but are basically the same as UPP being inferior to an EM3ev quality battery).

 

[neptronix]

We tried very hard to work with UPP and it leader, Richie, going back almost a decade. Actually just after I joined Doug at California eBike. Just after the fiasco you and I shared with the nutter. UPP and Richie has been aware of the issues and chooses to stay on his current course. I'm confident in saying most China vendors want money NOW and aren't much concerned about the future. Were they concerned they'd have followed your suggestion a decade ago!

Such a typical story with these vendors..

 

[gdg]

Is there any benefit in replacing the UUP BMS with one that will balance and provide some form of remote monitoring?

 

[E-HP]

Is there any benefit in replacing the UUP BMS with one that will balance and provide some form of remote monitoring?

If you’re asking whether balancing and remote monitoring as desired benefits, then the answer is yes.