Throttle interface for sensitive high power setups

It was never really the plan, it just ended up like that. I've repaired most of the controllers without fuss. A lot of failures were really 'soft' and I often only replaced the FET's that shorted. My current 12 FET LYEN has most of its original MOSFETs. No matching or anything special, just some snubbers and carefully placed copper. I think I had 3 failures with it. All of them were from stalling the motor at WOT into a wall while testing its durability. At the settings now, I stalled it for about a minute at WOT with some cooldown time. It has something like a thousand miles on it since the last failure, and I somewhat recently raised the phase current limit 10A. Easily 100-200 very hard miles since then.

I have 3 15 FET controllers that are missing parts of the board, so those are probably not going to work again. Failures at 48S are no joke. The 12 FET on the bike now has proven itself to be extremely reliable and never really gave me problems. The 24's however...
 
Any reports from anyone on how your bike feels when riding with the interface? Is it better, worse, more controllable. What about part throttle riding and either letting off the throttle or rolling off to coast and then going back k to your original speed?
 
Partial throttle is a big improvement for BB drive. I left the settings "as is" for now. The throttle resolution is greatly improved. And with the 3 speed switch I have even more throttle options. The power surges are gone during partial throttle when riding over rough terrain.
I will soon up the phase amps on my little 6 fet controller and see how much throttle control I have.
 
Here's where I'm at now in tuning the interface. I've set both the Delay pot and Buffer pot fully CCW.

Then I set up the back wheel off the ground. For a slow throttle twist and after 2-3 degrees of throttle rotation I could get the bike to go 2 to 3 mph and it felt like the power was under good control. However, with just a slightly quicker twisting or twisting slowly but more than just a 2-3 degrees I found that and the wheel speed jumps up quickly to 5-8 mph.

So, I left the delay pot fully CCW and then rotated the Buffer pot about 5 turns CW to do some throttle averaging. This improved slightly how the bike would respond to slow throttle twist (still could hold at 2-3 mph fairly easily) and slightly reduced the speed buildup with a quicker twist (i.e. some throttle lag was occurring).

Then I took the bike on the road.

With these settings I can start using a slow twist to 2-3 degrees and there is no catapult start but I still have to be careful to not twist too fast or too far. With further slow twisting (after the bike is moving) and then stopping (say 15 degrees of twist) I'm seeing the speed build up fairly responsively with just a little lag. The way I feel this is that as I twist toward the target position (say 15 degrees) the bike will begin to accelerate to the twisting with a delay but when I then stop twisting at the target (15 degrees) the bike speed will continue to increase to its steady state throttle set point speed (I'm assuming this is the throttle averaging in the Buffer setting and its doing just what it's supposed to do). Nothing horrendous in how this feels but a little more tuning will help because I'm trying to balance a "no catapult" start with a reasonably responsive throttle.

What is surprising is that I have the delay pot fully CCW and I still have to be careful in how much I twist the throttle and how rapidly I twist in order to avoid a catapult start. Still a big improvement over no interface where I had to fully release the throttle after a quick start or I would lift the front wheel.

Does this behavior sound like what others are finding when they tune the interface?

By the way, the pot travel from fully CCW to fully CW seems to be about 25-30 turns.

Jeremy, what is the rotation travel of the pots?

Still to do is some more tuning and then to test quick release of the throttle as the bike is accelerating to see if I observe a delay before the acceleration stops.

-Jim
 
Stealth, they are 25 turn. Try adding in even more delay if you want to desensitize and slow the throttle ramp some more. Just remember how quickly you turn the throttle affects the ramp up so even with a lot of buffer filter can be over ridden by turning the throttle faster. Small adjustments and test riding is the key because this is where the interaction between the delay and buffer pots comes into play.

Too much buffer and it becomes over dampened and has slow response.
 
With the delay pot set fully CCW I thought I had the maximum delay possible and that if I do add some CW turning to the delay pot I would only increase how rapidly the throttle responds to slow twists vs fast twists. Isn't the delay already desensitized as far as possible now?

zombiess said:
Stealth, they are 25 turn. Try adding in even more delay if you want to desensitize and slow the throttle ramp some more.
Click to expand...

Do you mean I should continue to add Buffer by further turning the Buffer pot CW?

-Jim
 
Stealth_Rider said:
With the delay pot set fully CCW I thought I had the maximum delay possible and that if I do add some CW turning to the delay pot I would only increase how rapidly the throttle responds to slow twists vs fast twists. Isn't the delay already desensitized as far as possible now?

zombiess said:
Stealth, they are 25 turn. Try adding in even more delay if you want to desensitize and slow the throttle ramp some more.
Click to expand...

Do you mean I should continue to add Buffer by further turning the Buffer pot CW?

-Jim
Click to expand...

With the delay pot turned fully CCW you have the lowest throttle attack on the "ramp" rate meaning the acceleration will be minimal. If you keep increasing the buffer it the Delay pot in this position you will eventually find that you bike will no longer accelerate as fast as it use to no matter how quickly you turn the throttle. At that point you will have to adjust the delay pot CW to get throttle to respond to acceleration.

Delay pot turned CW increases the attack rate on the throttle ramp in relation to how quickly and how far the throttle is turned.
Buffer acts mostly as a filter, but it has a big effect on the throttle ramp rate when the throttle is moved very slowly. More buffer means slower ramp up. The buffer has the greatest effect at the extremes of lowest throttle and the point the throttle position will eventually end up at if you hold the throttle in that position.

This video is a bit long and boring, but it shows how both the pots effect the throttle ramp rates, maybe it will help you out.
[youtube]uLEyISYfyZw[/youtube]
 
Jeremy,

A Stealth Bomber owner following my posts on this thread would like to know the time frame when you will offer the interface for sale.

Alternatively, should I have him contact you to see about getting a current beta interface and providing beta testing feedback?

-Jim
 
Stealth_Rider said:
Jeremy,

A Stealth Bomber owner following my posts on this thread would like to know the time frame when you will offer the interface for sale.

Alternatively, should I have him contact you to see about getting a current beta interface and providing beta testing feedback?

-Jim
Click to expand...

HE contacted me. I am tempted to sell him one of the two I kept for myself, but I really need him to provide feed back about it here so I can try to improve it.

ANy other complaints besides the throttle off delay zomgvtek has?
 
WoooHoooo My interface was just delivered!!! off to wire it up right now back with
reports on how she goes Mr Zombi man ;)

KiM
 
Throttle shutdown delay bug is now squashed. It's been reduced to a maximum of 30 mS from the time you let off the throttle until the interface starts it's shutdown procedure to fully closed throttle.

I have a 0.1uF filter capacitor between TPS IN and another between TPS Out. If you want even faster response, just remove these. Personally I can't tell any delay difference with them in, but they do server to filter out noise on the signal line.

With them installed as I shipped the interfaces the maximum WOT to full off can take a maximum of ~200mS. 100mS of this is caused by the 0.1uF capacitor and is not noticeable as it starts to reduce voltage immediately. The other 100mS is being caused by the code. It actually varies in an envelope between 40mS and 100mS before the throttle shutdown procedure begins.

With the small code change I just made, the throttle shutdown procedure beings in a worst case scenario maximum of 40mS (no way you could feel something this short). On average it takes about 25mS to start the throttle shutdown procedure if you let the throttle snap closed. This means the maximum WOT to fully closed is now 140mS.

If you feel that you need the responses to be even faster, removed the TPS IN 0.1uF cap that is closes to the micro controller and goes from the middle pin to ground. You may also remove the TPS OUT 0.1uF capacitor that goes from the center pin to ground. Doing this will result in a absolute maximum WOT to fully closed in 40mS. For reference the stock throttle I have takes 10-18mS to go from WOT to fully close letting it snap shut.

I personally do not feel the filter caps need to be removed, I installed them to help remove noise on the throttle lines to get cleaner readings. The 100mS R/C delay they add should not be felt because your motor can not slow down that quickly.

How much of an improvement do you feel this device has made to your throttle and riding ability?
More feed back on how it's working for everyone would be great. I appreciate the feed back I've received so far.
 
I added a plug extension for easy readings of the voltages by the pots. Messed a bit with the settings and went test riding. In the process I bend my BB bracket. So that bike is down for a bit. I'll install it on the Lyen 12 fet sensorless controller soon as I can. My wife's car timing belt broke and that needs fixing first. :cry:
 
AussieJester said:
WoooHoooo My interface was just delivered!!! off to wire it up right now back with
reports on how she goes Mr Zombi man ;)

KiM
Click to expand...


All a bit of an anti climax unfortunately ... doesn't work at all tiz dead :-( I triple checked the wiring its definitely correct
i turned the min voltage setting from one end to the next nadda no wheel movement ...tried reset using the red button, still nothing
removed 1k resistor from wiper wire on my magura throttle hit red button to reset, no movement when turning min voltage through range.
Not sure what to try Zombies i know its wired in correctly. I did accidentally knock the output connection apart, i still had the
controller on (whel off ground as always when working on such things) bike sprang into action, held a steady speed
about 1/8 of its potential when i plugged connections back in!
then suddenly stopped after a few seconds... Any checks i can now make Zombies?

Really like to get this working its just what my bike needs :-(

KiM
 
Power everything down, controller unplugged from the battery.
Hook everything up.
Power up controller
Measure throttle signal input voltage, do you see the voltage changing on your meter?
if so, reset the interface with the read button
Measure throttle signal output voltage, what is it?
Try adjust the MinV pot, does the output voltage change at all?

let me know. I haven't tried a Magura throttle but I can simulate a resistive throttle and get back to you.
 
zombiess said:
Power everything down, controller unplugged from the battery.
Hook everything up.
Power up controller
Measure throttle signal input voltage, do you see the voltage changing on your meter?
if so, reset the interface with the read button
Measure throttle signal output voltage, what is it?
Try adjust the MinV pot, does the output voltage change at all?

let me know. I haven't tried a Magura throttle but I can simulate a resistive throttle and get back to you.
Click to expand...

Cheers for the quick reply.... I think i might have found the problem, my Magure is outputting
3.38v the interface safety feature sets it to 0.0v if anything over 3.20v is connected correct?
A little fiddle with the pot adjustment on the magura will sort that out, shall lower it below 3.20v and see how we go...

BBS..

KiM
 
zombiess said:
Power everything down, controller unplugged from the battery.
Hook everything up. done!
Power up controller did!
Measure throttle signal input voltage, do you see the voltage changing on your meter? Yes ranges from 3.10v- 0.0v now
if so, reset the interface with the read button Done!
Measure throttle signal output voltage, what is it? ranges from 1.38v to . 0.60v
Try adjust the MinV pot, does the output voltage change at all? see above answer

let me know. I haven't tried a Magura throttle but I can simulate a resistive throttle and get back to you.
Click to expand...

Still not working unfortunately... is the bove info any help?

KiM
 
Aussiejester. I think might hitting the shutdown feature. Just to verify one thing, when your throttle is at minimum it is out putting less than 1v and at max the voltages rises to 3.1v? I'm only asking due to the way you posted the numbers because if I follow them the reverse is happening which means you need to swap the ground and pos wires to the throttle. Voltage should rise from low to high as you twist the throttle.

If the magura has adjustment pots on it, set the minimum voltage to be 0.8v and the max around 3.0v for now. Then it should be in the same range of what a hall throttle is. Set the Magura throttle pots to this while the throttle is connected to the interface and powered on. Then reset it. You should now be able to set your minv to around 1.40v and turning the throttle will increase it. How high it goes is determined by the maxv pot.

If you are getting movement at the output side that moves in relation to the input, then everything is working, it's just a matter of getting everything set correctly.

Just an FYI, the MaxV pot is actually a multiplier. The Vout from the interface depends on 2 factors. The minV set's your start point, the MaxV then multiplies the input V from the throttle and scales the output accordingly.

If this doesn't work, pm me your phone number so I can work with you over the phone.
 
Received my board today! Thank you.

I'm switching back to my Lyen 18fet 4115 with 40s 128v nom a123 pack :) :) :)

I'm looking forward to sharing my results!

Tommy L sends....
mosh.gif
 
zombiess said:
Aussiejester. I think might hitting the shutdown feature. Just to verify one thing, when your throttle is at minimum it is out putting less than 1v and at max the voltages rises to 3.1v? I'm only asking due to the way you posted the numbers because if I follow them the reverse is happening which means you need to swap the ground and pos wires to the throttle. Voltage should rise from low to high as you twist the throttle.

If the magura has adjustment pots on it, set the minimum voltage to be 0.8v and the max around 3.0v for now. Then it should be in the same range of what a hall throttle is. Set the Magura throttle pots to this while the throttle is connected to the interface and powered on. Then reset it. You should now be able to set your minv to around 1.40v and turning the throttle will increase it. How high it goes is determined by the maxv pot.

If you are getting movement at the output side that moves in relation to the input, then everything is working, it's just a matter of getting everything set correctly.

Just an FYI, the MaxV pot is actually a multiplier. The Vout from the interface depends on 2 factors. The minV set's your start point, the MaxV then multiplies the input V from the throttle and scales the output accordingly.

If this doesn't work, pm me your phone number so I can work with you over the phone.
Click to expand...


Wont be able to get any results for sometime i dont think, accidentally touched throttle wires together when controller was on and got a big spark and burnt something in my controller its dead now, can't see anything physically 'popped' inside but its got powdery covering the components and wires, i tried running it with my original settup minus the interface, doesn't work...get slight movement from motor when i turn controller on other than that nothing..... Prior to frocking controller though, i connected the spare magura that read 0v-3.10v couldn't get any reading on meter on the output side from the interface, it wouldn't allow anything higher setting on the input side than 1.11v down to .60v or so but yeah, nothing on the output side mate...dead. Big waste of time and a blown controller not to happy at myself right now.

KiM
 
For a Magura or any throttle the minimum output voltage into the interface has to be above 0.33v otherwise it will trigger the safety. Does the Magura throttle have trim pots for min/max voltage?

Sorry to hear you hurt your controller were you not using any kind of plug or insulation on the connections?

I've shorted the 5v rail on controller boards before when testing, no sparks before, it never hurt anything. Any chance you managed to short something to the battery? Powdery covering could mean you popped a cap. They can make a mess when they go boom. Not sure how shorting the 5V rail would have caused the controller to get hurt in the manner yours did.

Bummer you are out for now. I would have like to see if a magura would have worked well with adjustments.
 
zombiess said:
For a Magura or any throttle the minimum output voltage into the interface has to be above 0.33v otherwise it will trigger the safety. Does the Magura throttle have trim pots for min/max voltage?

Sorry to hear you hurt your controller were you not using any kind of plug or insulation on the connections?

I've shorted the 5v rail on controller boards before when testing, no sparks before, it never hurt anything. Any chance you managed to short something to the battery? Powdery covering could mean you popped a cap. They can make a mess when they go boom. Not sure how shorting the 5V rail would have caused the controller to get hurt in the manner yours did.

Bummer you are out for now. I would have like to see if a magura would have worked well with adjustments.
Click to expand...

Mr Zombies.. i took the controller apart have spotted a 50v cap thats popped, i replaced it with one from old 12fet i had laying about, shall test it now hopefully its all it was..

EDiT: unfortunately there is more to it, replaced two caps now, still a no go...above my pay grade, im without a controller for a while sorry Zombies...

KiM
 
Anyone else have any feedback? I have a small correction made to the interface if anyone of the testers has the ability to burn a 18F1320 PIC.

I think I'm now going to move on to adding the option of reading a hall sensor input so that I can make the throttle act more like an accelerator instead of being a speed control.
 
No more feedback on my part.

So will that hall sensor upgrade work for sensorless setups? I mean my controller works out the motor, and the halls are not being used. So can your upgrade work off the unused hall sensors to do its "thing"?
 
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