Upgrading a Dillinger Apache 26

[Nerm]

I recently picked up a second hand Apache 26:
http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/electric-bikes/folding-electric-bikes/apache-26-folding-electric-bike-by-dillenger.html

This is a nicely built bike, but the road legal configuration just doesnt have enough power to drag me up hills, on a decent hill the motor struggles big time and I find its actually more effort to pedal it than my mtn bike. I'm a 100kg bloke, and I live in a hilly place.
I actually dont care that much about top speed, but its got to get me up the hills.

I emailed Dillinger to get some advice on getting some more performance out of it, and they basically said forget it.

So, I'm thinking about putting a new hub motor and controller on it, and ideally keeping the existing battery (to avoid shelling out heaps more cash).

FWIW, the existing hub motor is a bafang 250W, and this is the controller:

And it has a C965 display on it.

From what I read, a Bafang 36v BPM 500W should provide twice as much grunt, and if I choose the 201RPM high torque option, that will maximise the hill climbing, at the expense of top speed. And hopefully it should be a simple swap out of the existing bafang hub.

So I'm looking at:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/350-bafang-bpm2-36v500w-rear-driving-e-bike-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html
at $139
and
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/551-s12p-750w-torque-simulation-square-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html
at $29
or this one? : https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/805-s-ku63-250w15a-6mosfets-controller-ebike-kit.html

They basically have this as a kit, with the wheel already spoked:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/347-bafang-bpm2-36v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

Couple of questions if anyone can give me advice:
1. Do you think this will solve the hill climbing problem
2. Is driving this stuff off the existing 36V batter realistic, or should I shell out the bucks to repack the battery to 48V?
3. Do you think I will be able to fit this hub controller combo to the Apache?
4. What's the difference between the hub linked above, and the "CST" option which costs a fair bit more, eg https://bmsbattery.com/motor/505-bafang-36v350w-cst-rear-driving-hub-motor-motor.html
5. Any comments on BMSBattery as a supplier, and any better options of where to get a bafang BPM?

Thanks in advance

Jon

 

[dogman dan]

You need a 1000w set up,, but very likely your battery will choke on more than 500w.

200kg is a big guy, so you need a big motor, and battery. A 48v,, 10 or 15 ah battery.

 

[Drunkskunk]

You need a 1000w set up,, but very likely your battery will choke on more than 500w.

200kg is a big guy, so you need a big motor, and battery. A 48v,, 10 or 15 ah battery.

+1

The battery used on that bike uses the Samsung 26f cell. The 26F cell has a maximum discharge of 2 times it's capacity rating (2C). That means an absolute max discharge of 20 amps for the battery pack, and a nominal discharge rating of 10 amps. While Samsung makes good batteries, they have to be used in spec. That battery is only suitable for a maximum 350w motor with a 20A controller.

It isn't worth the upgrade cost without a better battery. Also, that bike isn't a design I would want to push a large amount of power through. It's fine at 250w, but not really suitable for high power or weight.

 

[2old]

Just FYI, he said 100 kg (220 pounds); still pretty big (I know, was 215 for awhile); probably doesn't alter the comments.

 

[Nerm]

You need a 1000w set up,, but very likely your battery will choke on more than 500w.

200kg is a big guy, so you need a big motor, and battery. A 48v,, 10 or 15 ah battery.

+1

The battery used on that bike uses the Samsung 26f cell. The 26F cell has a maximum discharge of 2 times it's capacity rating (2C). That means an absolute max discharge of 20 amps for the battery pack, and a nominal discharge rating of 10 amps. While Samsung makes good batteries, they have to be used in spec. That battery is only suitable for a maximum 350w motor with a 20A controller.

It isn't worth the upgrade cost without a better battery. Also, that bike isn't a design I would want to push a large amount of power through. It's fine at 250w, but not really suitable for high power or weight.

I reckon anyone 200kg might struggle to get on a bike

Thanks, that's a very useful explanation of battery capacity, which I didnt understand.
Guess I will put up with it for a while until I can afford to replace the whole lot - battery, controller and hub. The challenge is getting a 48v battery to fit into the existing pack size, which fits inside the top bar. Dillinger did it though, for the offroad Apache 20", which presumably has the same battery pack size:

http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/electric-bikes/performance/off-road-20-apache-by-dillenger.html

The major limitation on this limited edition model is that the battery still had to fit within the 40 cell battery pack that fits inside the Apache frame. With high powered e-bike systems you need to have a high drain battery with a reasonable capacity, otherwise the pack will die prematurely. With a maximum of 40 cells, the Samsung 2,200mAh cell just wouldn’t cut it, so we’ve built the pack from 29E 2,900mAh cells which do the job very well.

That think has the Bafang BPM 500W, but at 48v, with a 22A controller.
Can anyone suggest a good 1000W 48v hub motor and controller? Do bafang make one?
Think I've answered my own question about CST hubs after a bit more research, just need to match whether the bike already has a cassette or not.

 

[motomech]

Can anyone suggest a good 1000W 48v hub motor and controller?

It's not the motor that is the limiting factor. The rating is more of a guideline to power handling capacity. Most of us here power our motors at a peak 2 to 3 times the rating. It's the controller and the Volts behind it that determines the electro-motive force that is driving the motor
Think of a hub motor as a car w/ a modern flexible engine, but no transmission. They are a compromise and low-powered hub motors even more so. Consequently, the speed range of the motor as it related to the required performance envelop is important.
This is a guide-line written by the owner of EM3ve, who handles another, higher quality geared hub motor, the Mac;

The 500W Mac motor is recommended for use at 36V or 48V with recommended controller limit of 25-30A but this is really dependent upon the application and the motor winding that is used. For further info on suitable matching of Motor and Controller.... 6 turn high speed motor - 400rpm loaded at 36V

8 turn standard motor - 320rpm loaded at 36V

10 turn torque motor - 255rpm loaded at 36V

12 turn low speed extra torque motor - 200rpm loaded at 36V....

As a guideline you can expect approximately the following real world speeds for the above windings on 12S LiFePO4 battery pack (approximately 38V under load) in a 26" rim on the flat, no pedaling with a rider plus bike weight of approximately 130kg total (286pounds):

6T - 45kph (28mph)

8T – 39kph (24mph)

10T – 32kph (20mph)

12T – 25kph (15mph)

The CST and probably your 250 Watt motor are mid-speed motors, some where between the 8 turn and the 10 turn.
Soooo, if you are really not overly concerned w/ top speed and you don't live in San Fran.(fill out your profile, please), perhaps not all is not lost.
Below is my 2WD. It has a larger geared(like the BPM) on the back and a 350 Watt rated mini is on the frt. The pack is LiPoly 46 V nom.);

For a while I ran them both on 20 Amp controllers(Yours is more like a 12 A, BTW)and the performance of either alone was roughly the same, even climbing. So you could double the the rating of your whimpy controller and realize much better climbing performance on your 250 Watt and if the motor burns up,...upgrade to a bigger one
But perhaps a better approach would be run a bigger motor and a controller in the 25 to 30 Amp range and still be under that battery 1000 W dis-charge limit.
I recently shunt mod'ed my rear motor controller to 25 Amps, but I know from experience that the mini would not like it (becoming jerky , rough and noisy), so I'm peaking my mid-speed Ezee @ 1000 Watts or so. I often ride on it alone and while it feels pokey compared to 2WD, there is no hills here in the relatively flat desert that it won't climb. On my longest climb, I rest up on motor power only until the base of the hill and then pedal like Hell so as not to violate the iron-clad rule of hub motors which is roughly; Never allow the climbing speed to fall below 1/2 the top speed at which point half or more of the Current is going up in heat. This impresses on one the advantage of a lower speed motor for climbing.
And the BPM is available in many speed ranges. Here is a 230 rpm;
http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2013-9M-D4CE.9DMJF
Probably could climb most anything on 25 Amps, but w/ a top speed of 18 to 19 mph.
Whether or not you pursue this, I am of two minds.
For the cost of a BPM and a cheap controller, why not? Especially of you don't mind possibly shortening the battery service life.
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in getting your hands dirty and scratching your head a few times, then save for another "off the shelf ebike"
Me, if it were mine, I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Nerm]

So you could double the the rating of your whimpy controller and realize much better climbing performance on your 250 Watt and if the motor burns up,...upgrade to a bigger one
...
For the cost of a BPM and a cheap controller, why not? Especially of you don't mind possibly shortening the battery service life.
On the other hand, if you aren't interested in getting your hands dirty and scratching your head a few times, then save for another "off the shelf ebike"
Me, if it were mine, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Thanks, that mirrors a lot of my thinking. Whack a bigger controller in it, see what happens. If I blow the motor, put a bigger, more torquey one in. And then if I blow the battery, go to a 48v one.

Hobart, Tasmania, btw. One very big hill and lots of smaller ones, one of which I live on (the one in the mid ground):

So it really does matter to me more being able to get up the hills (mostly so I can then bomb down them ), than top speed.

 

[docw009]

I've got that 12S controller in your link. It's physically big, by my standards. 4cm x 8cm x 17cm. Make sure you have a place to mount it on your bike. I've never used mine.

 

[Nerm]

I've got that 12S controller in your link. It's physically big, by my standards. 4cm x 8cm x 17cm. Make sure you have a place to mount it on your bike. I've never used mine.

Thanks for pointing that out, the controller in my bike goes inside the frame and the absolute largest dimensions are 40mmx85mmx140mm, which seems to rule out all the emsbattery ones.

Anyone got a source for an equivalent to the ku123 or s12 controllers, but in a smaller package?

One option is the 6fet Infineon, which gives 25A at 36-60v:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41_38&product_id=77

 

[motomech]

Follow Paul's advice;

....the 9 fet is recommended for the 8T and possibly the 12 fet for the high speed 6 T if they are used with wheels larger than 20.

30 to 35 Amps.
Leave Volts alone, but you may have to add range. This will be a power hungry set-up.
To go faster than what this gets you, you will need a megamotor, like the big MXUS.

 

[Nerm]

Thanks for the advice. I ended up getting a 12t Mac motor kit with a 6 fet Infineon controller from em3ev, with a CA v3 display.
Works fine off the existing 36v battery.
Cranks up to a peak of 30A / 1000W and the motor has heaps more torque and hill climbing ability than the previous one. About 50-60% faster up the hill behind my house.
The temp sensor in the Mac is nice when heading up big hills.
The downside is the reduced range of course if I run it flat out.