voilamart/otherbrands wheel rim

Vincenzo

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Jun 12, 2022
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I am in central PA. I need a wheel rim (or the whole wheel with spokes and motor if the price is right) that the voilamart conversion kits sell. The rim is a 26", has 36 holes that fit gauge 12 thick spokes and the rim depth is 3cm or 30mm (i.e. the distance between nipple and outer rim radius). they sell the rim but their parts prices are very much exaggerated that the parts added sell for more than double the price of the kit. I tried looking everywhere and eventually bought a full none electric known brand wheel for half the price they sell their rim for but after all the time and effort of disassembling it, i found that its depth was 5mm too small (require 5mm longer spokes) and its holes were a tiny little bit smaller than my spokes! It looked like the original one with double walls and everything but I guess the chinese make it on purpose that you have to buy from them.
If anyone tried replacing that rim with any known alternative, then we can brake their monopoly and help everyone saving a buck.
Thanks in advance for any wisdom
 
You can use any rim that is appropriate for the tire and riding usage you have, you just need new spokes. There are various wheelbuilding calculators to help you measure your stuff to get the right length spokes, such as the ebikes.ca wheel calculator in their Tools section.

While you haven't said the reason you need the new rim, I would highly recommend not re-using the overly-thick spokes they used in the first place, because those are usually the reason the rims fail--the spokes require so much tension for their thickness that the rims deform around the nipple holes, then the spokes go slack and the rim takes the whole load itself in just the one tiny spot at the bottom instead of spreading it around via the spokes, and the rim is not designed to do that. Sometimes spokes also break....

(also, sometimes spokes from a failed wheel have damage you don't know about, like fatigue cracks at the elbows; reusing them could lead to early failure of the new wheel)

Instead, I recommend using thinner 14/15 gauge butted spokes, because thinner spokes make a stronger wheel, as they can be tensioned correctly without damaging the rim, and will stay that way if it's properly built. If your rim is strong enough you could use 13/14 butted spokes, but I wouldn't go up to 12.

It is very common for motor kits to come with the wrong size spokes on them for the strength of rim they use, unfortunately.


FWIW, I'm using 13/14 butted spokes on my heavy-cargo SB Cruiser trike, and my wheels don't break even when I hit potholes when heavily loaded (hundreds of pounds). I've broken axles on the hubmotors without breaking the rim or spokes. ;) (I *have* damaged a rim with the pothole, bending the tire-mounting flange, but the spokes didn't fail and the wheel still worked; I'm still using this wheel after quite some time.
 
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I agree with amberwolf that you'd be better off using some other rim (and spokes) than what your motor came with.
 
You can use any rim that is appropriate for the tire and riding usage you have, you just need new spokes. There are various wheelbuilding calculators to help you measure your stuff to get the right length spokes, such as the ebikes.ca wheel calculator in their Tools section.
Thanks. That is exactly what i thought about first thing and what i am trying to do but spent too many hours turning webpages and spent some money in a failed first attempt (I'll keep the one that I bought for future use).

While you haven't said the reason you need the new rim, I would highly recommend not re-using the overly-thick spokes they used in the first place, because those are usually the reason the rims fail--the spokes require so much tension for their thickness that the rims deform around the nipple holes, then the spokes go slack and the rim takes the whole load itself in just the one tiny spot at the bottom instead of spreading it around via the spokes, and the rim is not designed to do that. Sometimes spokes also break....
Sorry for not giving details, I was trying to make it short.

I destroyed the rim by replacing the torn out brake pads a little too late a few times.
The original rims where strangely machined and made to take a lot of abuse from the 1500W gigantic motor in the middle.
I could have probably made those rims last another 200 miles if i was a little more careful. In my personal experience (and I am an expert in the electric/electronic stuff, but a relatively total beginner in mechanical and wheel/brake/derailleur building stuff), the wheel/motor/controller for this cheap conversion kit lasted a lot of abuse and only in the last 200-400 miles did i start having loosening and even braking spokes (braking mostly, at the inner, motor, bent ends) and my diagnosis is that it started happening when I started using the bicycle on a 3 times longer very rough route for switching job location and probably after repetitive repair attempt from someone (me) who is learning and not knowing about spoke prep stuff and wheel truing.
So, one day i went to a store very far away and bought some pads and hit a very evil bump on the way there and on the way back I heard a sound and I was lucky that I wan't on a very steep hill or too fast for it was close to midnight in a farms hilly area. I had to spend a fortune on a large uber and after inspection home I noticed that the tube was slit and the tire got out of the rime and the rim had all kinds of cracks that can't be fixed.

Instead, I recommend using thinner 14/15 gauge butted spokes, because thinner spokes make a stronger wheel, as they can be tensioned correctly without damaging the rim, and will stay that way if it's properly built. If your rim is strong enough you could use 13/14 butted spokes, but I wouldn't go up to 12.
That is very good to know. I was kind of hesitant/anxious to replace the spokes to more common ones because I have a very serious (as opposed to leisure) use for the bike and for the extreme kind of treatment explained in the previous paragraph and was thinking that they used this motor/spokes/rim combination for a good reason and there is no need to gamble with my safety or at least get stranded in the dark far away.
There was another reason. Trying to find a 15-16cm thin spokes (relatively uncommon) may cost me about what they're asking for their rim or more. I called a few shops and talked to very nice people who advised me against drilling the nipples holes bigger or changing the lacing pattern or doing any modification to those cheap kits because their spokes will start braking "at the drive way".
Please recommend a store/online source where you would get your spokes.

FWIW, I'm using 13/14 butted spokes on my heavy-cargo SB Cruiser trike, and my wheels don't break even when I hit potholes when heavily loaded (hundreds of pounds). I've broken axles on the hubmotors without breaking the rim or spokes. ;) (I *have* damaged a rim with the pothole, bending the tire-mounting flange, but the spokes didn't fail and the wheel still worked; I'm still using this wheel after quite some time.
thanks a lot for the personal experience. That is so good to know.
 
I agree with amberwolf that you'd be better off using some other rim (and spokes) than what your motor came with.
Even with a 1500W 26" and a heave rider and very long bumpy hilly rout?
Will do, but can you please recommend a place that sells weird spokes at decent prices? I have a ton of those that came with it. Those are 15.5cm from tip of threads to bend (are there standard lengths list somewhere? are there standard lengths at all?) and are 2.6mm thick (looked for a table that related mm to gauge online and couldn't find any, unless it is the same gauges of electric wires)
 
I took a few pics that provide a better explanation.
those first two show the cracks.
5.jpg 3.jpg
and those three show differences between the original and the replacement I bought.
6.jpg 4.jpg 2.jpg
This last one shows the difference in spokes and another issue...the holes in the hub were made for the thick spokes I guess. But, what do I know!
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The spokes are 2.6mm vs 1.9mm thickness (cross-sectional diameter) and I always thought that modifying (cutting and re-threading) spokes require pricey specialized tools. In any case using spokes that are two thirds thinner, provided that I do get the tools, sounds a little too big a change. Pardon me ignorance, I could not find a mm-to-gauge table for spokes thickness.
 
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Even with a 1500W 26" and a heave rider and very long bumpy hilly rout?

The harder you use your bike, the more important it is to use something better than what your hub motor came with. It's not made with those components to be good; it's made that way to be cheap. Really cheap-- you don't have to spend much at all to get parts of radically better quality.

Here's a much better rim than you have now, for a very good price:
Will do, but can you please recommend a place that sells weird spokes at decent prices? I have a ton of those that came with it. Those are 15.5cm from tip of threads to bend (are there standard lengths list somewhere? are there standard lengths at all?) and are 2.6mm thick (looked for a table that related mm to gauge online and couldn't find any, unless it is the same gauges of electric wires)

What you have are 12ga spokes, which are too thick to work correctly with bicycle rims. They're used for three reasons: they can be made of cheaper lower quality material than thin spokes, they're easier and therefore quicker to build with, and they sell well to ignorant people who don't understand that thick spokes make unreliable wheels.

Try these instead:

They have a 2.3mm elbow to better fill oversized hub holes (though some hubs will still require a washer to prevent pull through), but the length of the spoke is 2.0mm diameter to better match the tension level bicycle rims can tolerate.
 
I destroyed the rim by replacing the torn out brake pads a little too late a few times.
The original rims where strangely machined and made to take a lot of abuse from the 1500W gigantic motor in the middle.
Ah, so the pad surfaces were damaged?

To be sure, are the original rims the Weinmann in the posted images?

If so, the "crack" in the first image is the rim join, which is just pinned rather than welded for that rim (perfectly normal).

I don't see a crack in the other image. Perhaps if you take pictures in direct sunlight the camera will focus on them better; some cameras only focus well in close-ups in "macro" mode; if it doesnt' have this mode you may have to keep the lens farther from the subject to get crisp focus.



So, one day i went to a store very far away and bought some pads and hit a very evil bump on the way there and on the way back I heard a sound and I was lucky that I wan't on a very steep hill or too fast for it was close to midnight in a farms hilly area. I had to spend a fortune on a large uber and after inspection home I noticed that the tube was slit and the tire got out of the rime and the rim had all kinds of cracks that can't be fixed.

I can't see cracks in the images posted. Are they at the nipple holes? If so, that's common for too-large spokes because the tension is too high for the rim strength.

FWIW, cracks in the rims of any kind generally can't be fixed; if you had the ability to weld them with the proper equipment, clean up the welds, and heat treat as necessary afterward...but it's probably not worth doing that.

This image
shows the replacement rim is a "deep" rim, so it uses a lot shorter spokes than the original.

I am not sure what you're showing in this image:

That is very good to know. I was kind of hesitant/anxious to replace the spokes to more common ones because I have a very serious (as opposed to leisure) use for the bike and for the extreme kind of treatment explained in the previous paragraph and was thinking that they used this motor/spokes/rim combination for a good reason and there is no need to gamble with my safety or at least get stranded in the dark far away.
They probably used them because it's cheaper. If they built your wheel for you specifically for your usage, it might have been a deliberate choice, if they are a good wheelbuilder. But if it was really just a Voilamart kit, then they don't likely build anything, just buy stuff already made for the lowest possible cost.

My uses are all serious, too, as bikes/trikes are my only transportation, and I regularly move 200-300lbs of groceries a few miles from the store to home with the SB Cruiser, and our streets are not all in very good shape, especially at the edges of the roads where I must usually ride in traffic. I've also hauled a piano home a few miles with a trailer I built, which uses four regular bicycle wheels, with regular bicycle spokes and rims and tires, and the same trailer has hauled a few hundred pounds of dog food both before and after adding the two outboard wheels (for the piano haul).

I've spent quite a while learning what *not* to do with wheels, tires, etc., pretty much all the hard way. :/ I'm no wheelbuilding expert, but they're good enough to do the hard jobs for me. :)


The 20" rims on SB Cruiser that take the abuse are unknown brand, but were what was used on the first versions of the Zero electric MC when it was more like a powerful ebike / dirt bike. I use 2.25 x 16" motorcycle/moped tires on them.

I'm not using rim brakes now, so the rims don't have machined surfaces, but until very recently (relative to the decades I've been riding) I used only rim brakes. (I switched over to disc because of a broken fork and the options for wheel and fork options I had at the time were limited, and I wanted to experiment, cheaper to change brake types than anything else, and they've worked out fine since then. Depending on the bike design I'm working with at the time I'd still use rim brakes where appropriate).

(If I were to build SBC now I would use 29" or 26" wheels on all three corners, and 2.5-3" wide tires designed for thickness and stickyness (don't care how fast they wear out as long as they stick to the ground for handling and braking, and are at least several mm thick). Would probably move to 14/15 double-butted spokes, and a good "heavy duty" rim like perhaps the Weinmann "e-cargo" series, if they have some non-fat-tire options, or even the one Chalo linked for you)


There was another reason. Trying to find a 15-16cm thin spokes (relatively uncommon) may cost me about what they're asking for their rim or more. I called a few shops and talked to very nice people who advised me against drilling the nipples holes bigger or changing the lacing pattern or doing any modification to those cheap kits because their spokes will start braking "at the drive way".
Please recommend a store/online source where you would get your spokes.

So far I've gotten mine from ebikes.ca (the LBS I'd've used isn't around anymore), but any bike shop online or local that cuts spokes can do what you need.

IME so far, they generally cost about a dollar to a dollar fifty per spoke+nipple, so probably around $40-$50 for a 36-spoke set (plus a few spares in case you ever need them; I usually order 40 for a 36 spoke build), and if you need them a bag of spoke washers to fit on the hub's spoke flange at the head end of the spokes, and nipple washers if you need those for inside the rim to let the nipple sit at the correct angle to stay in line with the spoke are available.

I always thought that modifying (cutting and re-threading) spokes require pricey specialized tools
It does...but you don't need the tools unless you are making a lot of spokes; it's cheaper to buy them the way you want them for just one or two wheel builds.


Even with a 1500W 26" and a heave rider and very long bumpy hilly rout?
Will do, but can you please recommend a place that sells weird spokes at decent prices?
Well, you don't want wierd spokes, you want normal ones. ;)

I've never used this specific site before, but decent prices for good spokes are like these
about $0.85 each plus nipples like these
for about $0.30 each, and spoke / nipple washers for about $0.20 each.

If you do like I do and order a set of 40 for a 36 spoke build, and you need all of those, it's about .85 + .30 +.20 + .20 = $1.55 per spoke, which would be about $60 for the whole thing, not including shipping.

I have a ton of those that came with it. Those are 15.5cm from tip of threads to bend (are there standard lengths list somewhere? are there standard lengths at all?)

Spoke length is specific to the hub and rim being used, which is why there are spoke calculators to figure out what exact length you need for any particular wheel build. ;)

Some places do carry commonly used lengths, and if you happen to have one within a couple mm's of the right length you may be able to use them, but too short means insufficient amount of the threaded part of the spoke in the nipples, and that can sometimes break the nipple or strip the threads, if it's bad enough.


and are 2.6mm thick (looked for a table that related mm to gauge online and couldn't find any, unless it is the same gauges of electric wires)
If you use "Spoke mm to gauge" as the search, a few of these come up:
mostly at places that sell wheel-building parts.
 
Chalo,
Your logic totally make sense and it is exactly my way of thinking.



The whole project, for me was a survival experiment that worked.

I had an old walmart bicycle that I paid $20 for on Craigslist (notice that walmart is too high for me!) and I paid about $35 for a box of the cheapest Li-ion cells from battery hookup and got the kit from ebay when it was less than $200.

I got over 2000 miles out of it.

I will follow your instructions as soon as I get to the point where I can make another bicycle as a backup (my idea of a future plan B was to get yamaha zuma scooter or something like that).



For this current commute tool that I have, I just feel more comfortable keeping everything exactly as cheap and as it is because I, currently, don't have the luxury of experimenting, unless someone did exactly what you are explaining and it was an obvious and long-term success.



I looked at the rim link that you referred to (the one that shows up when clicking the link in your reply) and even if the "double wall" and "tripple wall" are marketing stunts (there is evidence of that), it just looks too thin to support the application in comparison to what I have, but what do I know. I am a perfect example for the target customer base that you referred to as "ignorant".



The spokes site you recommended is awesome (I'll call them tomorrow to get an eta estimate before ordering) and my plan now is to get about 40 spokes that are a little longer than the kit's "12ga" and a little thinner to work with the small holes of the new rim I bought that had 1.9mm spokes and the hub holes that 1.9mm spokes will probably not keep for long. I already bought a wrong wheel and this time I'll buy spokes that are new to me and the sum of the two "experiments" add up to a little more than their price of rim that I was looking for an alternative source for.
 

amberwolf, I have been learning from your replies everywhere for a while and this time I spent a few hours studying what you said and googling and watching videos. Thanks for everything you do here.​

The Weinmann is what I just bought (the full wheel, that I am regretting disassembling and now I have to rebuild), Chinese kits come with unbranded everything except the motor has "voilamart" on it. Trust me the old hub is cracked for at least a foot on each side wall and at the joint (that you recognized) and that was the reason for the tires to come out of it while riding the last time which cost me a job. I added, hopefully, better pics and added them to this reply .There is no crack or distortion of any kind at the nipple holes.

A little bit bent rims can probably be straightened and I even saw vids of those cracks' welders but I totally agree with you that it is insanely not worth it unless the rim was made out of pure gold or material retrieved from the cigar-shaped intergalactic object that approached earth a few years ago.

The image you mentioned with deeper rim is not as you described, please look at it again. The old/original/cracked one is the deep one that come with 5-8mm shorter spokes.

The other image you were not sure about was probably not clear enough, sorry I tried. The old rim was behind the new one and I've drawn a red arrow to show how much deeper it is.

Your statement here:

"They probably used them because it's cheaper. If they built your wheel for you specifically for your usage, it might have been a deliberate choice, if they are a good wheelbuilder. But if it was really just a Voilamart kit, then they don't likely build anything, just buy stuff already made for the lowest possible cost. "

is perfectly accurate and I'll go further than that by saying that it is probably a couple of losers who are selling a brand name from a basement somewhere, that's all. An obvious proof is that their deeper rim is lighter in weight than the shallower brand name replacement! It happens a lot in the hiking gear industry where everything is made in a Chinese sweat shop but they give every item the most made-up funny word brand name and call it ultra light and price it hundreds of times higher than its worth. It's a huge industry and I am totally surprised that I got much more than what I paid for this kit. It was probably pure luck but it's what I could afford and if I buy another one from them, it may not last that long. Probably pure luck (or probability calculation).

Thanks for sharing some of your experience with brakes. Experimenting with switching to disk brakes were my next thing as soon as I get a job again and get to the point where I can do that on this main bicycle or on a plan-B new build (which will be a more practical trike). It make more sense to switch the wheel that has the motor because of the hassle that I just went through.

I wonder how to measure the diameter of the holes in the rims or the hubs with accuracy and what range of spokes can be used with what diameter to operate safely and long term (too much relative gap between hole and spoke may not only cause all kinds of structural instability, but may increase dangerous friction).

What I've seen in my very little experience so far is that local shops that make (cut and thread) spokes to any specs charge so much more than those who use websites and are famous. I'll contact ebikes.ca as soon as I can to see their delivery time and prices. The $70-$80 (including shipping) that you mentioned only for a spokes set is insanely high for my thinking (you can get the same from voilamart and ebay/aliexpress for around $15) but they are probably worth every penny, especially for a person who is more serious or experienced than me or for someone who just paid all of their living expenses (aka bills) and has extra.

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This shows the difference between the 2.6mm silver spokes+nipples that came with the kit and the 1.9mm spokes+nipples that came with weinmann replacement. If the nipples of the thick nipples were a fraction of a millimeter smaller in diameter (or diagonal of their square cross section) they could've worked with the weinmann smaller holes, only a 5mm spokes longer.
photo_2023-07-21_07-08-00.jpg
I think I can go down to 2.3mm spoles that are 16cm long and some special nipples that go through the holes of the weinmann rim.
 
I looked at the rim link that you referred to (the one that shows up when clicking the link in your reply) and even if the "double wall" and "tripple wall" are marketing stunts (there is evidence of that), it just looks too thin to support the application in comparison to what I have,

Double wall rims are categorically better than single wall, pound for pound and size for size. Just like a piece of square tubing is stronger and stiffer than a piece of C-channel the same size and weight, a rim that has a closed cavity is stiffer and stronger than an otherwise similar rim that doesn't.

The SE Racing J35S rim is bigger and stronger than you think. It's 1-5/8" wide, which is almost certainly bigger than what you have. I haven't seen a published weight for it (usually a sign that it's on the heavy side), but just by size alone it can't be too far off a kilogram in the 26" diameter. And compared to a bottom-of-the-barrel cheap nameless rim on a hub motor, it will have a truer joint that won't require as much variation in spoke tension around the wheel to make the rim true and round.

The $70-$80 (including shipping) that you mentioned only for a spokes set is insanely high for my thinking (you can get the same from voilamart and ebay/aliexpress for around $15) but they are probably worth every penny,

Yes. Cheap spokes are cheap for a reason. They corrode and become stuck, they break early and often. Even the ones that look perfectly nice and are made of stainless steel have lower quality material than proven brand name spokes like DT Swiss, Sapim, Wheelsmith, Pillar, or Union/Marwi, so they'll fatigue more quickly and break much more often. I don't like paying lots of money for spokes either, but if your time is worth anything at all, quality spokes are a better bargain even if they cost you a couple bucks each.

Spokes cut to custom lengths have to cost more than factory cut spokes. The blanks cost just as much as threaded spokes, and then you have to add human labor and an expensive cutting and threading machine to the equation. Where I am, that means about a dollar extra per spoke for custom lengths.

Although you can't make a good reliable wheel out of crappy components, you also can't make a good reliable wheel from high quality components if the assembly, tension, and stress relieving aren't done carefully and well. Building your own wheel for the first time isn't a good idea if it's a wheel you depend on for transportation. Better to build at least a couple of nonessential wheels first to get a little higher up on the learning curve. Consult the wheel building instructions at Sheldonbrown.com or better yet, check out Jobst Brant's book The Bicycle Wheel from your local library, and read it.
 
There's such a quality difference between name brand and no name spokes but I do think custom ordered spokes are expensive, around $50USD for a 36H wheel. Nonetheless, the wheels stay straight and never seen a spoke break.

Measuring the ERD of a rim is always tricky as you have to include the top of the nipples. Since you should have double wall rims anyway, it's OK to be a little long on the measurement. I use washers if they are a bit too long.
 
Double wall rims are categorically better than single wall, pound for pound and size for size. Just like a piece of square tubing is stronger and stiffer than a piece of C-channel the same size and weight, a rim that has a closed cavity is stiffer and stronger than an otherwise similar rim that doesn't.

The SE Racing J35S rim is bigger and stronger than you think. It's 1-5/8" wide, which is almost certainly bigger than what you have. I haven't seen a published weight for it (usually a sign that it's on the heavy side), but just by size alone it can't be too far off a kilogram in the 26" diameter. And compared to a bottom-of-the-barrel cheap nameless rim on a hub motor, it will have a truer joint that won't require as much variation in spoke tension around the wheel to make the rim true and round.



Yes. Cheap spokes are cheap for a reason. They corrode and become stuck, they break early and often. Even the ones that look perfectly nice and are made of stainless steel have lower quality material than proven brand name spokes like DT Swiss, Sapim, Wheelsmith, Pillar, or Union/Marwi, so they'll fatigue more quickly and break much more often. I don't like paying lots of money for spokes either, but if your time is worth anything at all, quality spokes are a better bargain even if they cost you a couple bucks each.

Spokes cut to custom lengths have to cost more than factory cut spokes. The blanks cost just as much as threaded spokes, and then you have to add human labor and an expensive cutting and threading machine to the equation. Where I am, that means about a dollar extra per spoke for custom lengths.

Although you can't make a good reliable wheel out of crappy components, you also can't make a good reliable wheel from high quality components if the assembly, tension, and stress relieving aren't done carefully and well. Building your own wheel for the first time isn't a good idea if it's a wheel you depend on for transportation. Better to build at least a couple of nonessential wheels first to get a little higher up on the learning curve. Consult the wheel building instructions at Sheldonbrown.com or better yet, check out Jobst Brant's book The Bicycle Wheel from your local library, and read it.
I kind of agree that the rim you recommended is stronger than the double walled nameless one, but I am not sure about a comparison with the one I just bought that is branded Weinmann. In any case, I can not mess with how wide a rim is because the bicycle structure won't allow me to do so.

As for the quality of the "cheap" spokes/nipples, I did not feel if anything was wrong. They lasted 2000 miles and I wouldn't pay seven times the price even if the last 14000 miles.

I just made some measurements today and discovered that the old rim was not circular and measuring between 56.8-57.2cm and that was probably the reason why I recently started having loose/broken spokes before I finally destroyed it with the bad brake pads. My guess is that I must've hit one or a few consecutive bad bumps.
 
There's such a quality difference between name brand and no name spokes but I do think custom ordered spokes are expensive, around $50USD for a 36H wheel. Nonetheless, the wheels stay straight and never seen a spoke break.

Measuring the ERD of a rim is always tricky as you have to include the top of the nipples. Since you should have double wall rims anyway, it's OK to be a little long on the measurement. I use washers if they are a bit too long.
What does ERD stand for?
Thank you for explaining when people sometimes use washers.
I measure the diameter of a circle with unknown center (like a wheel rim) by touching the end of the measure tape to a point at the edge and move the other end back and forth at the other end to find the longest distance. Moving away from that point of longest distance in both directions decreases the distance between the edges.
 
I finally pulled the plug and paid a small fortune ($90) for a rim from the kit seller and I'll be praying that it arrives before I become homeless and right before I get a new job that I can get to on a bicycle. Now I'll have to rebuild the weinmann rim to use for the front and start looking for information on how centered the hub motor is with respect to the rim to make it work. I'm debating if I'll have to buy me a truing stand for all of that or save the $35 and do it without.

The first thing I will do when I can afford will be to buy at least one of those kits and resell it in parts and post it here and all over the internet and both make a small profit and help people who run into an issue like this by braking their monopoly and providing parts at half the price and faster USA arrival time. I totally encourage every one who reads this to do the same. The parts can be resold on ebay as follows:
motor $80+shipping
spokes $30+shipping
rim $50+shipping
1500W controller $50+shipping
Display $35+shipping
Throttle and brake handles $20+shipping
cadence sensor $10+shipping
and the total is obviously higher than the kit's price but close to half what they charge for parts (it's insane!)

The second thing I'll do, is save for a small engine scooter and/or build another bicycle and battery and consider disk brakes more seriously, at least for the motor wheel.

In addition, I have learned a few thinks and a few new links (to me) that I can help others here who run into the same issues. Thank everyone who taught me something.
 
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I looked at the rim link that you referred to (the one that shows up when clicking the link in your reply) and even if the "double wall" and "tripple wall" are marketing stunts (there is evidence of that), it just looks too thin to support the application in comparison to what I have, but what do I know.
What do you mean by "thin"? The wall thickness? The outside width of the rim from braking surface to braking surface? Or something else?

The spokes site you recommended is awesome (I'll call them tomorrow to get an eta estimate before ordering) and my plan now is to get about 40 spokes that are a little longer than the kit's "12ga" and a little thinner to work with the small holes of the new rim I bought that had 1.9mm spokes and the hub holes that 1.9mm spokes will probably not keep for long.
If you are willing to use a spoke calculator like Grin's, etc. you can verify your spoke length for the specific rim you are going to get (just get the ERD/etc measurements for that rim from the seller or manufacturer) and the hub you already have.

As long as the rim nipple holes allow it you can also get spokes long enough to use them all "elbows out" for greater bracing angle for a laterally-stiffer wheel (a bit of advice I have borrowed from Chalo ;) ).
 
The $70-$80 (including shipping) that you mentioned only for a spokes set is insanely high for my thinking (you can get the same from voilamart and ebay/aliexpress for around $15)
And you will probably get from VM / ebay/AE exactly what you paid for. ;)

It certainly feels insanely high...it was more than I had available to spend when I did this, but I did it anyway, and I am still riding with those parts, years and thousands of miles later. ;)

(I understand about budget (or lack thereof); I still barely make above minimum wage, even after a decade and a half with the same company, and can't expect things to ever get better. I learned to repurpose available materials as much as possible simply because I have never really had enough money to do much more than get by, and sometimes not even that).

Another option is to get a cheap spoke cutter/threader, and re-use spokes and rims from regular bicycle wheels that you can find on used bikes cheap or free from thrift stores, craigslist or equivalent, or freecycle.org, trashday finds, etc. There's less of a guarantee that all of the spokes will work perfectly, and a bit more learning curve as you have to judge spoke/rim quality and reusability, cut/thread the spokes yourself, as well as lacing and truing the wheel, and you may have to collect parts for a time before being able to rebuild the wheel.
 
I just made some measurements today and discovered that the old rim was not circular and measuring between 56.8-57.2cm and that was probably the reason why I recently started having loose/broken spokes before I finally destroyed it with the bad brake pads. My guess is that I must've hit one or a few consecutive bad bumps.
While that could have been part of the problem, it's just as likely (even moreso in my experience with these hubmotor wheels) that the spokes loosened first due to rim deformation over time from too high a tension required for the spokes than the rim could handle, then loosened more and more faster and faster until the rim was no longer kept in shape by the spokes pulling on it as they should, which then made it out of round as it encountered bumps/etc.

I have some pics of the damage of various rims from the above sequence of events in various threads, mostly in the old CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger threads, but also in the Fusin Test Bike thread, and possibly others.
 
What do you mean by "thin"? The wall thickness? The outside width of the rim from braking surface to braking surface? Or something else?


If you are willing to use a spoke calculator like Grin's, etc. you can verify your spoke length for the specific rim you are going to get (just get the ERD/etc measurements for that rim from the seller or manufacturer) and the hub you already have.

As long as the rim nipple holes allow it you can also get spokes long enough to use them all "elbows out" for greater bracing angle for a laterally-stiffer wheel (a bit of advice I have borrowed from Chalo ;) ).

What I meant by "Thin", is more of an overall description, but especially walls/depth and brake surface. I should've used the work "weaker" instead of "thinner". Sorry about that. Spokes "calculators" are basically trigonometric formulas for determining the LENGTH of a spoke. They have nothing to do with the thickness (if uniform, same diameter through the whole length of the spoke, some aren't) or what thickness range of THICKNESS is wise for what rim/hub hole diameter if with/without hub motor and wattage/size of motor. At lease what I saw so far.
 
And you will probably get from VM / ebay/AE exactly what you paid for. ;)

It certainly feels insanely high...it was more than I had available to spend when I did this, but I did it anyway, and I am still riding with those parts, years and thousands of miles later. ;)
We all know that almost everything is made in china, so that relatively outdated "get what you pay for" debate may take a whole dedicated forum :D(or at least a dedicated thread), i.e. comparing the ratio of quality to the ratio of prices (I believe that the latter in many cases is higher to much higher than the former, or may be you can feel free to call me rational/cheap).
That reminds me of the story of Robin Hood (or corruption) where, a long time ago while I was a kid and was watching the Disney 70's movie "Robin hood" (still greatly recommend it), I noticed that my grandfather was watching me and we had a little talk after the movie. He explained to me that, first, the story was all about a fictional crook and was very probably made up by worse crooks, and even if we ignore that for a minute, no one ever questions or discusses the overhead cost of his operation. So, lets say he steals $1000 from an "evil" rich man called Bernie or Donald or Joe, is he going to give the "unfortunate poor" $20 or $980 and keep the rest as overhead expenses (like food, shelter, transportation, tools, bribes, ...etc). Think about it. :rolleyes:
and can't expect things to ever get better
In this aspect, I probably, currently disagree with you. I used to be at the top of the "pyramid" until in the last 3 years when everyone around me started accepting being treated like a guinea pig and I refused and made a dive down to the bottom (I guess you are probably somewhere much higher than me at this moment and if I don't climb up a little bit very soon, I won't even be on that pyramid of the living any more). I have some personal details (that I cannot share, unless privately) and some very profitable skills that I am trying to put into my survival efforts and probably for climbing up faster and that's why I only consider this alternative mode of transportation temporary (in addition to the fact that it is only really awesome only for people of a certain age, probably 20-60, and if you live in or within a reasonable distance from a nice or libtard large city or large town and/or flat area and rarely need to go over 50 miles round trip for work or necessities). I believe that I'm only stuck at a miserable situation, if you're familiar with Robert Kiyosaki's "Rat Race" if you are familiar with him or his book that is the highest sold book in history and his board game. All I am saying is that I think I have a higher probability of getting out of that Rat-Race phase that I recently fell into much faster than everyone I know because there are personal details that can not be shared in public.
Another option is to get a cheap spoke cutter/threader
This is something I will eventually do because I started loving the leisure part of it and the part where you (probably mentally) middle finger passing big boxes (cars/trucks...etc) at a non-moving traffic area or when you fit in a place/path that they cannot or when you use the finger to the corrupt system by using a practically free transportation. It can either be considered a long term investment/survival-gear or a nice hobby for those who can afford it.
 
While that could have been part of the problem, it's just as likely (even moreso in my experience with these hubmotor wheels) that the spokes loosened first due to rim deformation over time from too high a tension required for the spokes than the rim could handle, then loosened more and more faster and faster until the rim was no longer kept in shape by the spokes pulling on it as they should, which then made it out of round as it encountered bumps/etc.

I have some pics of the damage of various rims from the above sequence of events in various threads, mostly in the old CrazyBike2 and DayGlo Avenger threads, but also in the Fusin Test Bike thread, and possibly others.
Man!! that could exactly be it. The job I just lost because of this incident was a 1-11pm five days a week relatively physical job and I remember the last two weeks I used to stay up to 3-4am disassembling and reassembling because of a broken spoke or two and that even consumes my 2 off days. The last day I did my 40 miles commute I thought it was acting better, but then I hit (high speed, was late) a very bad broken part of the very narrow side of a fast road that goes between a mountain/hill and a river (scary part) and I started hearing a funny friction sound that depends on the speed. On the way back I decided to go very slow in the dark and to stop every couple of miles to inspect spokes and tighten loose one and check everything. After about 8 miles and probably 4 stops I came to the steepest down going part that I call brake pad burning part where if you don't have very good braking system you struggle to keep your speed manageable (and the down going road ends with a red light :giggle:).

What ever led to the other (deformed and loose/braking spokes, bad pads, age), I think it was a good bang for back getting 2200 miles out of it. I used two tires and three inner tubes (last two with sealant) with that rim.

Thanks for the analysis. Very educational.
 
Spokes "calculators" are basically trigonometric formulas for determining the LENGTH of a spoke. They have nothing to do with the thickness (if uniform, same diameter through the whole length of the spoke, some aren't) or what thickness range of THICKNESS is wise for what rim/hub hole diameter if with/without hub motor and wattage/size of motor.
No, because the thickness of the spoke is chosen based on the rim's strength, and the tension that the rim can take, so the spoke has to be thin enough to not require so much tension that it damages or breaks the rim.

That's why the 12g spokes are problematic on many rims.

Their thickness should not be chosen simply for the hole sizes of things, nor for the power of your motor. Butted spokes (with thicker end(s) than the main length) and spoke/nipple washers can be used for situations where a rim or hub flange has holes too large for the normal head or nipple size that goes with the structurally-appropriate thinness of spoke.
 
No, because the thickness of the spoke is chosen based on the rim's strength, and the tension that the rim can take, so the spoke has to be thin enough to not require so much tension that it damages or breaks the rim.

That's why the 12g spokes are problematic on many rims.

Their thickness should not be chosen simply for the hole sizes of things, nor for the power of your motor. Butted spokes (with thicker end(s) than the main length) and spoke/nipple washers can be used for situations where a rim or hub flange has holes too large for the normal head or nipple size that goes with the structurally-appropriate thinness of spoke.
Very informative!
So, what kind of hypothetical modification(s) can you propose to the events of the story of my wheel failure if it had better spokes (either 13s with washers at both sides with the same nameless rim or 13s with washers only on the hub side)? i.e. what could've happened.
 
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