Volcon Brat

M

Meii

10 mW
Joined
Apr 3, 2024
Messages
29
Location
San Diego, CA, US
So, new here, new to ebikes. Got a Volcon Brat for the looks/going to Dr appts/making new Dr. appts necessary/errands.

Wouldn't you know it, the hills here are just a bit too much. Left me at 54% at the half way mark. I love the frame and feel, but looks like I need to upgrade a few bits here and there.

Bike: about
Volcon Brat, 4" fat tire at about 100lbs with self rescue kit, lock, ECT.
750/1200 rear hub motor,
~14.5ah battery,
Rider: about 170lbs gear included.

I'd like to:
-peak but not sustain around 45 mph to clear some traffic points were bikes must share the lane.
-sustain around 35mph, I currently sustain 30-32 on a fresh charge, even with a... 130lb back pack.

I'm thinking, same hub until I destroy it.
60v/20-25ah lfp battery.
New controller to fit.

So far I've:
Added a sticker, a backup/rear view cam, magura front brake.

Any thoughts/recommendation for the build?
Simple answers challenge, I'm not very educated on topic. If it can't be done, it can't be done. Maintaining that "750" serial on the hub is a matter of... Importance in California.

With any luck I can do this under a grand.

V/r
Meii
 
aI will tell ya, I have built all of the above, and generally beat the grand mark..

What i have not successfully done is break about 38mph, I will eventually get their, but doing it on a bike is not easy. I have been on one breaking 30 and they show all the evidence of not being designed for such things. Going faster is not just a matter of power, you start finding out about the Mustange Fallacy...

EDIT:: Backup Camera. I have tried a few, the ones made for cars do not like the vibration so the image is shite. Also,, they all prefer broader mount points than I have on everything but the trikes I have built out. And those were Kinda ok.. Get some big doofy looking rearview mirrors, they have been strapping those on motorcycles for decades and a lot of the bugs are... well, worked out to the tune of maybe going for Mr Bugaverse...

Old Mustangs and Pinto's had the same trans, Me and a buddy thought that was ridiculous, so we swapped it out for a race grade, trans.. and blew apart the u-joints.. replaced those.. Braces for the drive shaft. Replaced that and the damaged trans axle houseing., then literally cork screwed the drive shaft so hard it was a good 10c shorter than it had been.

The Mustang Fallacy, just because your POS ford has a stupid part from a pinto, someone who knew a LOT more about Engineering than you built that vehicle around that decision.

Lack of Range: The battery you just described is in my very limited opinion a bit hinky. I start off with 20Ah if it is going to do more than jaunting around with the kids. My son has already gotten into his 3rd battery upgrade and keeps out running them, next up is a 2nd unit in a 2nd mount with a stop, turn it off, restart with the 2nd battery (I managed to make the auto switches I tried to fail on bench power loads, and that is a piddling 30a. the battery packs are all easily capable of bursting over 100, so yeah, those things are a joke.

Lack of speed.. that gets MUCH more complicated, the factors involved in getting more go for your O requires things like size of tire, deep detailed analysis, and probably more than a couple of dead soldiers along the way (empty Beer Bottles for those who have not lived in the south).

I would love to listen in, but wrong chap to ask about those. I build the stupid things and flat out state I only fully grasp about 20% of it.
 
DaLanMan said:
aI will tell ya, I have built all of the above, and generally beat the grand mark..

What i have not successfully done is break about 38mph, I will eventually get their, but doing it on a bike is not easy. I have been on one breaking 30 and they show all the evidence of not being designed for such things. Going faster is not just a matter of power, you start finding out about the Mustange Fallacy...

EDIT:: Backup Camera. I have tried a few, the ones made for cars do not like the vibration so the image is shite. Also,, they all prefer broader mount points than I have on everything but the trikes I have built out. And those were Kinda ok.. Get some big doofy looking rearview mirrors, they have been strapping those on motorcycles for decades and a lot of the bugs are... well, worked out to the tune of maybe going for Mr Bugaverse...

Old Mustangs and Pinto's had the same trans, Me and a buddy thought that was ridiculous, so we swapped it out for a race grade, trans.. and blew apart the u-joints.. replaced those.. Braces for the drive shaft. Replaced that and the damaged trans axle houseing., then literally cork screwed the drive shaft so hard it was a good 10c shorter than it had been.

The Mustang Fallacy, just because your POS ford has a stupid part from a pinto, someone who knew a LOT more about Engineering than you built that vehicle around that decision.

Lack of Range: The battery you just described is in my very limited opinion a bit hinky. I start off with 20Ah if it is going to do more than jaunting around with the kids. My son has already gotten into his 3rd battery upgrade and keeps out running them, next up is a 2nd unit in a 2nd mount with a stop, turn it off, restart with the 2nd battery (I managed to make the auto switches I tried to fail on bench power loads, and that is a piddling 30a. the battery packs are all easily capable of bursting over 100, so yeah, those things are a joke.

Lack of speed.. that gets MUCH more complicated, the factors involved in getting more go for your O requires things like size of tire, deep detailed analysis, and probably more than a couple of dead soldiers along the way (empty Beer Bottles for those who have not lived in the south).

I would love to listen in, but wrong chap to ask about those. I build the stupid things and flat out state I only fully grasp about 20% of it.
Click to expand...
From the top,

Limits are just that, and are understandable.

I have three Volcon brats, and 32mph is the max still-wind stock with a 150lb rider I regularly hit. Hit 42+ two or three times in short bursts down a hill. The balance on brats is pretty low and stable. Failed to mention I also shifted to air shocks, counter pressured to the rider. Wouldn't wanna hit a pot hole for sure, and already looking at more appropriate tires for the speed and weight. Overpressuring to 23 is not optimal.

They appear over built in just the right places to take a little a little more oomph.

Surprisingly, for rear view, I got an extended appropriate grade stem bolt, 3D printed a cap to adapt it to a cell phone holder. Tossed my old cell phone, and ran a USB to an old crappy webcam. App on the phone let me flip the image. And boom I can see behind me. I'm transitioning into an old timer and looking over my shoulder has a pain and discomfort element to it now-a-days. This lets me keep my left and right, without all the young fancy twisting for my rear.

My favorite part of the mustang fallacy is welding on a larger exhaust for gains.

Agree with you on the range, just barely made it back from a VA appointment, paused for lunch and a little charge at a friend's house on the way home.

At full throttle non-stop save a few red lights and stop signs. I got 24 miles with some pretty steep hills. Oddly enough the second Volcon was still at 45% when mine turned off at 20%. I haven't done the kw/mile math, but with our loadout there was a 25 lb disparity. Both riders the same build and cross section.

Speed; I get you here, I guess I really am asking if a 25% increase in voltage will lead to a 33% increase in speed. Which sounds dumb when I say it out loud. 72 volts sounds more where-its-at for my demands. I guess I'm asking for a guesstimate solution, winds and how floppy my jacket is will always have an influence.

Happy to hear I'm not the only one just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

V'r
Meii
 
There are many things you can do to increase performance, it all depends upon how much money you want to throw at it.

I think a QS205 motor with a 100A or 150A controller and a suitable size 72 volt battery could fit on that bike.

That will give you 7.5kw to 10kw
 
Probably someone more astute than I am will mention this, but while 72V, a new motor and controller will get you to 45 or so mph, IMO you'll need to add better suspension, tires and (maybe) other parts to travel that fast safely.
 
2old said:
Probably someone more astute than I am will mention this, but while 72V, a new motor and controller will get you to 45 or so mph, IMO you'll need to add better suspension, tires and (maybe) other parts to travel that fast safely.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget the brakes. It takes a lot more effort to stop from 45 or 50 mph than it does from 30 mph.
 
2old said:
Probably someone more astute than I am will mention this, but while 72V, a new motor and controller will get you to 45 or so mph, IMO you'll need to add better suspension, tires and (maybe) other parts to travel that fast safely.
Click to expand...
Suspension and brakes are upgraded as posted above. Thank you~
 
AGS said:
There are many things you can do to increase performance, it all depends upon how much money you want to throw at it.

I think a QS205 motor with a 100A or 150A controller and a suitable size 72 volt battery could fit on that bike.

That will give you 7.5kw to 10kw
Click to expand...
I'm curious if that'll be a little excessive for my intent. I'm talking peak 45 for 10 to 15 seconds to pass or remove myself from a situation.
 
Breaks are upped to 220mm via adapter, holy bajeesus do I have the stops now. 30-0 in 3 bike lengths... And hitting about 45° over the front wheel. The Magura disk is pretty aggressive looking too. Next is getting off the 4" low psi fat tire. And onto some higher speed rated wheels.
 

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Meii said:
I'd like to:
-peak but not sustain around 45 mph to clear some traffic points were bikes must share the lane.
Click to expand...
According to this calculator you will need 4000 watts to hit 45 mph:

Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator

Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator, comparing different kinds of bicycles
www.kreuzotter.de

P.S. Since the brat is fairly upright so I plugged in "Roadster" rather than "mtn bike" into the calculator. I also plugged in a rider height of 72 inches. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
ebike4healthandfitness said:
According to this calculator you will need 4000 watts to hit 45 mph:

Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator

Bicycle Speed (Velocity) And Power Calculator, comparing different kinds of bicycles
www.kreuzotter.de

P.S. Since the brat is fairly upright so I plugged in "Roadster" rather than "mtn bike" into the calculator. I also plugged in a rider height of 72 inches. YMMV.
Click to expand...
I flipped and rotated the handle bars to get low and tight since I used to ride drop bars/aero on a road bike. Also tossed a front wind guard on there.
 
Meii said:
Could I get this in lay term, happy to provide, once I know what I'm looking for. Am looking at the leafbike 2000w conversion kit as an all in one solution.
Click to expand...

O.L.D. stands for "over locknut dimension". A good description can be found below:

Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing

A bicycle frame and fork should match the wheels that are to be used in it. Older bicycles used narrower spacing, but older frames can often be spread out to match more modern wheels.
www.sheldonbrown.com
 
Last edited:
Yes $2400 for a POS

volcon.com

Volcon Brat

From the engineers behind the revolutionary Stag and the legendary Grunt, comes a bike built for any adventure, on or off-road. The Brat is not your typical e-Bike, it goes wherever you want to go. From off-road adventures, to slipping through busy traffic, or traversing the city, the Brat will...
volcon.com volcon.com
 
nicobie said:
Yes $2400 for a POS

volcon.com

Volcon Brat

From the engineers behind the revolutionary Stag and the legendary Grunt, comes a bike built for any adventure, on or off-road. The Brat is not your typical e-Bike, it goes wherever you want to go. From off-road adventures, to slipping through busy traffic, or traversing the city, the Brat will...
volcon.com volcon.com
Click to expand...
Thank you for your constructive criticism.
 
Meii said:
Thank you for your constructive criticism.
ebike4healthandfitness said:
O.L.D. stands for "over locknut dimension". A good description can be found below:

Bicycle Frame/Hub Spacing

A bicycle frame and fork should match the wheels that are to be used in it. Older bicycles used narrower spacing, but older frames can often be spread out to match more modern wheels.
www.sheldonbrown.com
Click to expand...
Just read the article, I'll find a caliper after my ride today. Thank you.
Click to expand...
 
nicobie said:
Yes $2400 for a POS

volcon.com

Volcon Brat

From the engineers behind the revolutionary Stag and the legendary Grunt, comes a bike built for any adventure, on or off-road. The Brat is not your typical e-Bike, it goes wherever you want to go. From off-road adventures, to slipping through busy traffic, or traversing the city, the Brat will...
volcon.com volcon.com
Click to expand...
About 140mm front, around 190mm rear. Caliper didn't reach so those are +-5mm.
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
You are good.

Leaf bike has the 2000 watt kit in 190mm:

www.leafbike.com

20 inch 48V 52V 2000W rear hub motor - Beach Snow Fat Tire bike conversion kit

Convert your 20 inch original beach bike to snow electric bike with leaf 20 inch 48V 52V 2000W rear hub motor fat tire bike conversion kit.
www.leafbike.com www.leafbike.com
Click to expand...
Heck yeah, I just need to do a little research as to the difference between a 48-52, and a 60v. The 14.5ah by 48v gets me 24miles at wot 30mph with stops and hills. Good goal would be 30-35 miles same average speed.
Maybe 60v/20ah kit.
 
Meii said:
I'd like to:
-peak but not sustain around 45 mph to clear some traffic points were bikes must share the lane.
Click to expand...

No. Don't be fooled; they won't let you share the lane. Also that specially-abled motorcycle won't do 45mph speed competently even 'roided out.

By my napkin sketch reckoning, 30mph will take about 1750W electrical, and 45mph will take over 5000W electrical to hold on level ground. Optimizing for one speed will impair efficiency at the other. Timely acceleration to either speed will require more juice than holding that speed. So if you want 45mph, plan for like 7kW electrical. (Or don't, because your bike will suck.)

Cojones and smarts are a lot cheaper and lighter weight than brute force. Either one will help, if you don't have access to the other.

Meii said:
With any luck I can do this under a grand.
Click to expand...
Nope. But it would be a waste of drachmas if you could.
 
Meii, I know you mentioned your improved (over stock) aerodynamics in post #16 but you might also consider the 2500 watt kit or 3000 watt kit as they both appear to share the same motor as the 2000 watt kit (which I assume is 45mm stator as compared to the 35mm stator as found on the 1500 watt leaf bike kit).
 
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