What's the most reliable and maintenance free brakes?

[cwah]

Hello,

I'm thinking to upgrade my bikes to a single most maintenance free brakes to avoid hassle. I've tried the zoom brakes before (but they frequently need bleeding which is a pain) and also the clarks exo skeletal but they were not as modular and it seems bleeding isn't as easy either.

The shimano deore M615 seems to be the best in class for its value:
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shimano/deore-m615-front-and-rear-brake-set-ec103481?country=GB&currency=GBP&gclid=CjwKEAiA68WnBRCJxZr5qoaL3iMSJAAXIrr3L-dqSAMXkAZFujAp4VeiNC4Dw6DC8lnr0aClaq2YshoCk6Xw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I'm thinking to use semi-sintered brake pads:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/MTB-Bicycle-Disc-Brake-Pads-FOR-M985-M988-Deore-XT-M785-SLX-M666-M675-Deore-M615/32226828787.html

And combine with 203mm rotors:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/bike-brake-rotor-bicycle-rotor-bike-brake-disc-brake-rotor-203mm-MTB-parts-with-bolts/1899010396.html

Is there any better combination than that for 30 mph bikes with lots of start and stops in city riding? It does feel decent price for all and hopefully lowest maintenance & easiest to bleed.


ps: They are also better disc brakes such as the shimano saints using the ICE technology, but I'm not sure it worth it as it's double price... suggestions are welcome.

 

[friendly1uk]

I thought discs were for mud, because mud on your rims stops pads working.
From my experience, discs require a lot more maintenance than rim brakes. When a rim brake does need attention, it can be done with your fingers. Following a decent crash they can just be unhooked in many cases. They are much more failure resistant.

Discs just seem like hassle on the road. Looking towards the professional road bikers, few have even looked twice.

 

[cwah]

why all cars, motorbikes and dh bikes have disc brakes then? I started with rim brakes and with speed around 30mph it just wears the rim really quick. The pads were also worn every 3 months.

So I decided to replace it all to disc brakes so that I don't have to worry about worned out rim after a year

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, I find disc brakes easier to adjust than rim.

But get rim right, as Chalo can, and they rock too. It's just that I likely never have rim brakes aligned to their best.

 

[Ykick]

I'm a fan of Magura hydro rim brakes. Once they're installed and setup properly all I ever do is change pads, which is a breeze. They've even solved issues on suspension bikes which had cable runs that weren't ideal for cable operated brakes.

Some disc brakes are cool too but if I had $100 to spend on a wheel brake I'd buy Magura hydro rim over any disc in that price range. I like hydros too upon equipping myself with bleed tools of the trade.

Sure, you can make cable brakes comparable with proper, careful setup but I just like the smooth feel of hydro operation.

 

[Alan B]

The most maintenance free brake is regen.

My experience is that hydraulic disc brakes require less maintenance than cable operated rim brakes.

My rim brakes are also very difficult to get adjusted right, they tend to get dirty, squeal or have some other annoying property.

My disc brakes go for thousands of miles without any attention at all.

But regen for the majority of the braking (about 95%), and then hydraulic disc for the remainder has been my favorite.

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

If I could chime in here. It was mentioned that there road guys go for rim brakes almost 100% of the time but this is changing. I don't know whether your bike was originally a rim brake bike and thus only has cable stops instead of the bosses for disc brakes but since you said that you used to run rims, I'll base this on that assumption.

I currently have Avid db1, elixir 1, elixir XO, and Clarks EXO skeletals on my bikes. You are right in everything that you said about the Clarks. I also have a beater bike that I have these old Promax "semi-hydraulic" brakes on. I got them for $9.00. They are cable actuated but have a hydraulic reservoir and piston location down at the wheel in one component. I think that these were actually just ahead of their time. They were derided by all and there were issues with them. They are however, just as good as the elixir 1 and the Clarks. I am not suggesting that you get these.

Recently, The idea got reborn because now the Road bike fellas are demanding hydraulic discs for their bikes but there is not a clean way to retro fit hydraulic discs to a cable pull bike. The latest iteration of this type of brake is now called a "cable actuated hydraulic disc brake" and they are getting some very good reviews and holding up well in tests and dissipating heat really well.

If your bike is a cable pull bike, you might want to think about them: TRP HY/RD Hydraulic Disc Brake

Here is a review: http://www.cxmagazine.com/trp-hy-rd-hydraulic-disc-brakes-review-road-cyclocross

They aren't cheap though but it seems that with the new cable actuated hydraulics you are getting the best of both worlds instead of the worst of both worlds.

 

[Racer_X]

The most maintenance free brake is regen.
But regen for the majority of the braking (about 95%), and then hydraulic disc for the remainder has been my favorite.

Agree with Alan, Regen all the way! Disc brakes for the remainder.
As you said cwah i have finished 3 rims aswell because of rim brakes. I gave it up.

Clamping dropouts for my front wheel drive heavy Duti Beach cruiser

Torque plate dropouts for my rear drive 29er Merida Big 9

 

[friendly1uk]

2000 miles has not taken the anodising from my rims, and my blocks are still fine. Just like my chain and tyres. All fine.

I have had bikes with discs, but non have been any good. I avoid them, but each to their own

Discs seem like progress, but since fitting them to trains, they can't run with leaves on the line. We shouldn't look to other vehicles to decide what our bikes need.

I run a road bike with road bike brakes. I'm happy enough with that.

 

[TSAR]

For stopping a 30-40mph bike, four piston brakes will do a better job. DH brakes are designed for stopping bikes that go about that speed, and I always try to use them over a regular-trail rated brakes.

If Shimano Saints ate too pricey, Zee brakes are cheaper, but totally worth it.

 

[Drunkskunk]

The most reliable and maintenance free brakes are drum brakes. They have the largest pad to wheel contact of any braking system, and are shielded from the elements. because of the huge pad surface area, adjustments are rare and take minimal effort. Brakes like the Aria drum have been known to go decades on the original pads.
No other braking system will be as low maintenance, or as reliable.

But that's probably not what you want. they are heavy and take a great deal of hand effort to use. Both rim brakes and disk brakes are better in just about every way except those two points.

 

[friendly1uk]

Heavy on the hand? That is surprising. The geo of drums makes them bite harder. This is most noticeable when you try to do a J turn with discs, and knock down a bus stop. When your less sporty car could do it with ease.

 

[MadRhino]

First, regen is not a brake. No precision at all, unless you are one of the few to have built a variable regen system.

Second, disc brakes are much less maintenance and much more reliable than rim brakes, that is if you have proper disc brakes that are installed properly.

The only downside of disc brakes is the cost, in both price and weight. For this reason, if you don't ride fast or dirt you may be happier with rim brakes.

The most reliable disc brake is the Magura Gustav. You have this brake for lifetime, easy to service, good precision, very good power and heat dissipation.

The new generation Magura MT 7 is proving excellent so far. I am riding them this winter in salted slush and all sort of extreme conditions without any cleaning or maintenance since october. They are f****** dirty and still operating as new. Can't say yet if it will last as long as the Gustav, and the cost of replacement pads is much higher (4 pads per caliper); but it is lighter, better for precision, with the same power and heat dissipation, and even faster to service.

There are some brakes out there that are very close to Magura for reliability: Hope M6 and Shimano Saint for example. Many are equal or even better in the field of precision and weight, yet not even close when it comes to reliability. For reliability, you need to compromise some weight, and you have to pay the price.

 

[Ohbse]

For a bike running 30mph frequently disc brakes are excellent. I have run a variety including avid bb5,bb7, shimano xt and now shimano saint and they all did the job well however given your request for reliability it's worth looking at the units with the largest pad surface and the largest rotor diameter. Shimano zee + 203mm rotors are a great combo. You cannot be over braked IMO but it can be very stressful not having enough.

The absolute best option however is definitely regen. Variable regen is awesome and reduces your brake pad consumption to near zero once you're used to it. My original set of Saint pads will probably last another 15,000km based on consumption to date. As well as the myriad other benefits of having a better controller of course.

 

[cwah]

The shimano saint m820 does look excellent but it's more than double the cost of the m615 so I don't know if that worth it so much.

For those using regen, do you have a sine wave controller at decent price you are using? And what is the regen power you use? I am thinking 48V 15A regen should be good enough

 

[MadRhino]

... For reliability, you need to compromise some weight, and you have to pay the price.

Saint are a big step over Deore. They are keeping cooler, thus better reliability. They also have better modulation, thus better precision.

For optimal braking distance, control precision is the most important factor. For reliability, it is mostly about heat dissipation and simple design. The best brakes are expansive, but they are not a must for everyone. This is about weight, speed, riding style and terrain. To achieve better braking distance in various conditions, is well worth the cost of good brakes. If you ride hard and fast, you need the best. I mean, how do you value your skin and bones, compared to the cost of bicycle brakes ?

 

[Alan B]

Many controllers already have variable regen. Sabvoton and Adaptto for two popular here on ES. It is simple firmware for those rolling their own controllers.

Even fixed regen combined with some other brake can greatly reduce brake wear and maintenance.

 

[cwah]

... For reliability, you need to compromise some weight, and you have to pay the price.

Saint are a big step over Deore. They are keeping cooler, thus better reliability. They also have better modulation, thus better precision.

For optimal braking distance, control precision is the most important factor. For reliability, it is mostly about heat dissipation and simple design. The best brakes are expansive, but they are not a must for everyone. This is about weight, speed, riding style and terrain. To achieve better braking distance in various conditions, is well worth the cost of good brakes. If you ride hard and fast, you need the best. I mean, how do you value your skin and bones, compared to the cost of bicycle brakes ?

If you are telling me my m615 are not good enough to work reliably at 30mph I'd need to consider the shimano saint M820.

But if for more than double the price I get additional modulation and cooling that are a nice upgrade over the m615 I'm not sure it would worth it

 

[cwah]

Many controllers already have variable regen. Sabvoton and Adaptto for two popular here on ES. It is simple firmware for those rolling their own controllers.

Even fixed regen combined with some other brake can greatly reduce brake wear and maintenance.

I'm aware of the adaptto but its too overpriced for me. I can have controller for 150usd, 15usd display and 50usd bms all in. Charger I already have. Compared to an adaptto that is 3 times the budget I don't know if it worths it. Sabvoton are good but massive as I only need 3kw power

 

[Chalo]

You ask about reliable and maintenance free brakes, but then you discuss only hydraulic disc brakes. If you really want reliability, you have to eliminate hydraulics, and if you really want the lowest maintenance, you must eliminate discs.

In my personal experience, conventional drum brakes (such as those available from Sturmey-Archer) are both the most reliable and the most maintenance-free of all bicycle brakes. They can't be used with a hub motor, they don't offer the strongest braking, they take a long time to break in, their compatibility with different levers is limited-- but they are the most reliable, with lowest maintenance.

If I were looking for a brake to pair with a rear hub motor for a moped-type e-bike, I'd consider a front cable drum brake from a moped. Those are a bit heavier but more powerful than bicycle drums, with higher heat capacity.

On the rear wheel, braking power is less important, but continuous heat capacity of the system is still important. In this regard, a rim brake on a good sturdy aluminum rim is categorically more capable than any disc. The disc may have better lever response or even better maximum power, but it will overheat much sooner due to its size, mass, and material.

A hub motor that is threaded for a freewheel on both sides can use an Arai-style thread-on drum brake, for huge heat capacity and dissipation. These are no longer in production and may be difficult to find.

 

[Chalo]

Even fixed regen combined with some other brake can greatly reduce brake wear and maintenance.

Causing motor torque to reverse frequently might reduce brake maintenance in principle. But in practice, it seems to greatly increase overall bike maintenance and shorten the lifespan of e-bikes.

Nobody trashes their hub motor or their bike frame (or both) by wearing brake pads out too frequently. Both these things seem to be common side effects of regen braking, though.

 

[cwah]

You ask about reliable and maintenance free brakes, but then you discuss only hydraulic disc brakes. If you really want reliability, you have to eliminate hydraulics, and if you really want the lowest maintenance, you must eliminate discs.

In my personal experience, conventional drum brakes (such as those available from Sturmey-Archer) are both the most reliable and the most maintenance-free of all bicycle brakes. They can't be used with a hub motor, they don't offer the strongest braking, they take a long time to break in, their compatibility with different levers is limited-- but they are the most reliable, with lowest maintenance.

If I were looking for a brake to pair with a rear hub motor for a moped-type e-bike, I'd consider a front cable drum brake from a moped. Those are a bit heavier but more powerful than bicycle drums, with higher heat capacity.

On the rear wheel, braking power is less important, but continuous heat capacity of the system is still important. In this regard, a rim brake on a good sturdy aluminum rim is categorically more capable than any disc. The disc may have better lever response or even better maximum power, but it will overheat much sooner due to its size, mass, and material.

A hub motor that is threaded for a freewheel on both sides can use an Arai-style thread-on drum brake, for huge heat capacity and dissipation. These are no longer in production and may be difficult to find.

Chalo remember it's a bike going over 30mph. I'm not sure drum brakes are strong enough and furthermore it's to be used with a dd motor so it eliminates it.

For rim brakes... I started with rim and at my speed and environment (wet + lots of dirt on ground) it just wear my rim pads really quick. I think I had to change them every couple of months on my previous setup. The brake pads were usually worn to the point I could see metal out of it.

The rim also died quite fast, and it was really painful to have to source another rim on the motor configuration... That so painful experience made me change all my bikes to disc brake.

I prefer to change my disc every 6 months rather than changing a rim every year... if that makes sense :|

 

[Ohbse]

Many controllers already have variable regen. Sabvoton and Adaptto for two popular here on ES. It is simple firmware for those rolling their own controllers.

Even fixed regen combined with some other brake can greatly reduce brake wear and maintenance.

I'm aware of the adaptto but its too overpriced for me. I can have controller for 150usd, 15usd display and 50usd bms all in. Charger I already have. Compared to an adaptto that is 3 times the budget I don't know if it worths it. Sabvoton are good but massive as I only need 3kw power

Having used various controllers, the adaptto is absolutely worth it. It's a controller, a BMS, a charger and a display all in one. It's also dramatically nicer to ride with proper torque throttle, variable regeneration and the ability to accurately track ride statistics and predict range etc. You're correct, it's expensive in comparison, however it's similar to comparing a 2014 Mercades S class to a 1988 Toyota Corolla. Both technically cars and both will get you where you need to go, but the manner in which they do so is pretty different. I will never go back.

Chalo is of course welcome to his opinions and he is frequently very correct, however I would point out that there's a good reason motorcycles or cars do not run cable actuated drum brakes. Good quality Hydraulic brakes are expensive because they are harder to make. There is an element of 'wank factor' as well, but a mid-range option like the Shimano XT M785's represents affordable and highly reliable braking. I used these at 30mph for 6 months and 4000km without any issues at all.

 

[Chalo]

Chalo is of course welcome to his opinions and he is frequently very correct, however I would point out that there's a good reason motorcycles or cars do not run cable actuated drum brakes.

In turn I would point out that we're not talking about motorcycles or cars, but rather vehicles that are an order of magnitude lighter and slower.

The Honda Nighthawk 250 has been a good seller more or less unchanged since 1982, with cable drums on both wheels. If you think your e-bike needs more braking than a Nighthawk 250, well, I can't help you with that problem. But I will point out that no hydraulic discs would ever match the Nighthawk's drum brakes for reliability and low maintenance.



Both motorcycles and cars, by the way, used drums for much longer than they have used discs. Some still do, along with commercial trucks whose braking reliability and low maintenance are both of utmost concern.

 

[Ykick]

These “most” and/or “best” poll threads often fail to discuss what “type” of service we’re dealing with. In other words, braking requirements for a “bicycle” like eBike are much, much different than for the “motorcycle” designs pretending to be lawful eBikes.

I get along with what Chalo’s saying because performance closer to pedal bikes doesn’t need much more braking power than can be achieved with good quality and well maintained cable/rim systems.

Encroaching into motor vehicle territory performance requires more serious braking systems.

There’s also bikes in-between. 25-30’ish MPH tend to be an in-between specification which requires a little more capability but nothing along the lines of DOT stuff either.