Why I don't like lithium batteries

[Pinesal]

Let me start by saying, I have a bike with SLA batteries. I bought a lifepo4 upgrade and had a bad experience and went back to SLA. After owning the lithium for 3 months, a hot day caused the BMS to fry and the battery became about useless. I couldn't figure out which BMS to replace it with and the ebay seller was no help so I just chucked a $400 battery in the garbage (recycled).

No I am not just making this post to badmouth lithium, I want to get away from SLA but it seems to have more pros then cons in my eyes. I am hoping some of you will be able to address my concerns and offer counter points. Well here goes.

1. Lithium is way more expensive. So even if you do save enough to buy one, you just got to pray it's not a lemon.
2. They are complicated, you have that extra part, the BMS, and all it's wiring, which is nearly required. So you can have bad cells, or bad BMS, or wires. Problems can be hard to track down.
3. Related to the last, lithium is usually made up of may cells which need to stay balanced. If one cell goes bad ,you gotta go through and test possibly hundreds of cells to find it. Then replace it and connect it back to the bms. With Lead you have just 3-6 cells.
4. It's hard to get an accurate power gauge. These batteries maintain their voltage until they are almost dead. There is almost no way to tell when the battery is, say, half empty.
5. They are hard to get. I have not been able to find any local stores that sell lifepo4 batteries without it being already part of a bike. I can buy SLAs anywhere, I even get a discount on them at a local shop.
6. I have heard that SLA can provide more amp power but I have not confirmed this.

SLA batteries are so simple, they are common, cheap and easy to just trip into your system. So they are heavy and lose power over time but at least they are reliable and don't fail easily.

 

[LockH]

I started out riding SLA. Love SLA! ... `cause they made great door stops. (But I ran out of doors.) So. 200-400 recharges/"cycles"? And "cheap" too! To buy (over and over). NOT per mile/long-term costs. And heavy? Bad news re accelerating from stops and up hills ("against gravity". See "energy consumption".).

So I moved on... Li's (lithium-ion cells) `r "where it's at", baby.

(Just my 2.xxx cents Canadian, eh?)

EDIT: See "atomic table".

 

[gogo]

I hear you. Much has been written about such issues here on E-S. As someone who has anticipated better EV batteries since the 70's and even contemplated a career in battery development in the early 80's, all I can say is batteries are getting better, albeit slowly. I blame government interference. 8)

… And heavy? Bad news re accelerating from stops and up hills ("against gravity". See "energy consumption".) …

Don't forget 'carry-through' when colliding with pesky vermin, and the other side of the hill. (See: momentum and potential energy)

 

[Alan B]

LiFePO4 has the flat discharge curve that hides the charge state. Other lithium chemistries do not have this "feature".

What you need is a good battery vendor to provide quality product and good after sales support. Trying to cheap out can have huge costs in the end with a short life.

Lead is cheap but it dies quickly and the extra weight is a poor fit for a bicycle. A good lithium ebike pack will last years.

 

[Ykick]

I have the opposite experience. 11 years ago I commuted daily on a GoPed ESR750ex using 4qty HR (high rate) 9Ah rated SLA.

Not only did that 9Ah actually amount to between only 4-5Ah when new and fresh. Even with best care, those SLA exhibited major capacity losses by month 3 of regular, daily use. Always charged immediately after use, balanced occasionally, never hammered into severe over discharge region, etc.

Back then, replacements cost around $140 shipped. I was replacing them every 3-6 months.

I finally went RC Lipo and “LEARNED” how to handle lithium chemistry. And good packs actually deliver labelled capacities. 5Ah actually deliver 5Ah in my uses. RC Lipo allowed me to amortize battery costs over 3-4 yrs per setup.

I’m very pleased with the power density size/weight savings, high (fast) charge rates, power delivery and ultimately very low cost for 1000’s of miles and around 9 years of steady, daily use.

I’d never consider SLA unless it was for 1/2 block range and size/weight really didn’t matter. Knowledge is “priceless” yet only requires study and application practice to acquire. But sometimes, screwing up is an unavoidable cost of tuition...

 

[tomjasz]

I have the opposite experience.

As here. I find SLA hard to find, heavy, expensive, and nowhere near as flexible. Once bitten...
I can't see how SLA can be cost effective. I used them on a 24V scooter project and the 18650 salvage packs FAR outlasted the SLA.

 

[tomjasz]

Let me start by saying, I have a bike with SLA batteries. I bought a lifepo4 upgrade and had a bad experience and went back to SLA. After owning the lithium for 3 months, a hot day caused the BMS to fry and the battery became about useless. I couldn't figure out which BMS to replace it with and the ebay seller was no help so I just chucked a $400 battery in the garbage (recycled).

No I am not just making this post to badmouth lithium, I want to get away from SLA but it seems to have more pros then cons in my eyes. I am hoping some of you will be able to address my concerns and offer counter points. Well here goes.

1. Lithium is way more expensive. So even if you do save enough to buy one, you just got to pray it's not a lemon.

7 18650 packs, not a lemon

I spent near $90 for a SLA 24V for a scooter. Salvaged batteries from laptops abused by me outlasted a new SLA

2. They are complicated, you have that extra part, the BMS, and all it's wiring, which is nearly required. So you can have bad cells, or bad BMS, or wires. Problems can be hard to track down.

They don't have to be. They can be managed with simple cellogs

3. Related to the last, lithium is usually made up of may cells which need to stay balanced. If one cell goes bad ,you gotta go through and test possibly hundreds of cells to find it. Then replace it and connect it back to the bms. With Lead you have just 3-6 cells.

It's really just a matter of learning. Maybe the curve is a bit steep, but once learned...

4. It's hard to get an accurate power gauge. These batteries maintain their voltage until they are almost dead. There is almost no way to tell when the battery is, say, half empty.

$10 gauge matches my $200 multimeter!

5. They are hard to get. I have not been able to find any local stores that sell lifepo4 batteries without it being already part of a bike. I can buy SLAs anywhere, I even get a discount on them at a local shop.

I find UPS very easy...

6. I have heard that SLA can provide more amp power but I have not confirmed this.

Silly!

SLA batteries are so simple, they are common, cheap and easy to just trip into your system. So they are heavy and lose power over time but at least they are reliable and don't fail easily.

 

[MadRhino]

Putting good Li cells to recycling because you couldn't figure out a BMS repair was not your best move.
There are many battery chemistries to choose from, Lead-acid being the worst. Too heavy to make a good bike, too dirty for the environment, Lead is dead. I am amazed that it is still in use in the automotive, a lunchbox size of HP Headway's is so much better...

I use Lico cells, the now common RC lipo's. No BMS, charging in 7minutes, delivering high current to make a bike go fast with minimal weight of batteries to carry. Not the best battery solution for everyone, but very good power in a small format.

 

[Pinesal]

I get what you are all saying and I probably just had bad luck with my first attempt at the upgrade. But failure still stings. I just DON'T want a battery that has 100 wires connected to it. Is there another way?

I was looking at those LICO batteries and looks like they can be 22v so fewer cells to make a pack? I'll look into that.

 

[tomjasz]

100 wires? Sorry but you're being overly dramatic. Find a good reseller and buy a battery that will far outlast you're SLA. I PROMISE!

 

[e-beach]

Take the time to learn what the wires do and your problem is over. Talk it over with someone in your area to help you understand. Draw pictures of wiring diagrams to help you vision what you are doing. Get another lithium batter and drop the dead weight of the lead.

I ran with lead batteries for about the first 9 months of my e-biking. I went to LiFePO4 and am glad I did. They have already lasted 3 times the length of lead batteries. They have 2 times the range and weigh almost 1/2 as much.

Do your research on ES and find a reliable vendor for your next batter purchase. I could name you four off the top of my head, but I think you need a little more study before making the leap.

You could go back to lead, but it is a step backward if you ask me.

 

[Punx0r]

A well-made li-ion battery has the BMS fully integrated - you should only see two wires: positive and negative (ok, sometimes a separate + & - charge port).

Lead is simple and more forgiving if abused, but also has a lot of drawbacks. I wouldn't use it myself.

 

[LockH]

… And heavy? Bad news re accelerating from stops and up hills ("against gravity". See "energy consumption".) …

Don't forget 'carry-through' when colliding with pesky vermin, and the other side of the hill. (See: momentum and potential energy)

Hehe...Points in favour I suppose. My first experience with lead batteries as "marine, deep cycle", where the lead plates can be extra thick (read "heavy"), watt sailors don't care so much about as they install them deep in the bilges and use the weight to counteract the force of the winds on the sails/mast aloft. Actually, so "old school" they had holes to top up the electrolyte. AGMs (absorbed glass matt) was "new tech". And the SLA batts commonly sold made great starter batteries for gasoline/diseasal-powered (sp?) engines. Lotsa "juice"/high power output... briefly. And then the alternator on the running engine to recharge the batts promptly.

But I hear folks riding those classic/antique poopmobile-style pedal only bike prize light weight. Lots of manufacturers these days jumping aboard the "Carbon fibre Train" at least for "high end" bikes. Frames, wheel rims, seats, etc etc. So, faster to accelerate from stops, easier to pedal up hills. Probably easier/faster to "hit the brakes" also.

I'm thinking in an increasingly "urban" world, the ride to work, etc is getting more velodrome surface-like, and those "pesky vermin"? Probably the neighbours cat. Or a dog. Not much else that hasn't been killed off around here. I guess it's called "road kill". (Oh. Reminds me... Where'd that recipe book go?)

http://www.culturechange.org/issue8/roadkill.htm

Everyday in the U.S., 190 million motor vehicles hit the road, and one million animals get hit by motor vehicles. That's counting cars, buses, motorbikes, and trucks, but not ATVs, snowmobiles and other off-road vehicles. The figure includes mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians, but not insects and bugs, who somehow never count.

Now, back to "Why lead batteries are so lousy for an ebike application".

 

[wesnewell]

There are many flavors of lithium batteries. Rc lipo is cheap and available all over, because it's a consumer commodity. Initial cost isn't much more than sla, and in many ways it's cheaper, last many times longer and is simple to configure, reconfigure, and maintain. I wouldn't touch a lifepo4 or an 18650 pack. And I sure as hell wouldn't go back to sla. A week using it over 5 years ago was enough for me. Rc lipo has a somewhat steady discharge curve, so it's easy to tell how much capacity you have left. Even easier than sla since the voltage spread is a lot larger. A simple $5 volt meter is all you need. I don't use a bms, so I can configure any size pack in minutes. And since it has balance ports, it's easy to find a bad cell without having to take the pack apart. But in all the years I've use lipo, I've never found a bad enough cell to replace. It doesn't sulfate. You don't want or have to charge it after every ride, etc., etc. It's all I'll use. If you want to use a bms with it, you can. I don't, even though I bought a couple over a year ago. Just don't see the point. Simple is good.

 

[dogman dan]

Oddly enough, there are still people I advise to choose the SLA, Usually a trike, and a round trip that will never be much more than 4-6 miles. If you can get there and back on 5 ah, then a 9 ah sla pack is all you need.

But my experience,,,, I had a 15 mile all uphill ride home on my commute. Well, the more lead I packed on that bike, the less far I got up that hill. The next buy was a scary one. Some guy in china,, named Li Ping. one or two people on V for voltage had tried it, and said the 10 ah pack was too weak. I got the 20 ah,, and it turned out to be the cheapest cost per mile battery I have owned so far.

Since then, when Pingbattery was nearly the only battery vendor on ebay, you can pick out a hundred a holes who will rip you off any day on ebay. V power hong kong one vendor of famously shoddy packs. Another guy sold the same dead battery about 10 times,, we had a whole thread trying to keep track of his current e bay vendor name,, he changed monthly. People would return the dead battery, never get their money back, and he'd just sell it again.

Clearly you had a bad experience with your ebay purchase. You may not need more than 5 ah to do your ride.

Now the big deal is shipping. I had many batteries shipped to my house illegally. They go on a jet plane, with people sitting on top of them. We know now how risky this really is, and the crack down is in progress.

A UN 38.5 certified battery shipped from a USA vendor, that is very pricy. But that is the only way it comes to you legal. Boat shipped to the USA by the container load, and it costs about 10 grand to get each particular battery size certified. You can get that type battery in many bike shops, but it's a special order, and they have to be willing to do it. Or just buy it on line. But it's not gonna be $400.

 

[Pinesal]

Oddly enough, there are still people I advise to choose the SLA, Usually a trike, and a round trip that will never be much more than 4-6 miles. If you can get there and back on 5 ah, then a 9 ah sla pack is all you need.

But my experience,,,, I had a 15 mile all uphill ride home on my commute. Well, the more lead I packed on that bike, the less far I got up that hill. The next buy was a scary one. Some guy in china,, named Li Ping. one or two people on V for voltage had tried it, and said the 10 ah pack was too weak. I got the 20 ah,, and it turned out to be the cheapest cost per mile battery I have owned so far.

Since then, when Pingbattery was nearly the only battery vendor on ebay, you can pick out a hundred a holes who will rip you off any day on ebay. V power hong kong one vendor of famously shoddy packs. Another guy sold the same dead battery about 10 times,, we had a whole thread trying to keep track of his current e bay vendor name,, he changed monthly. People would return the dead battery, never get their money back, and he'd just sell it again.

Clearly you had a bad experience with your ebay purchase. You may not need more than 5 ah to do your ride.

Now the big deal is shipping. I had many batteries shipped to my house illegally. They go on a jet plane, with people sitting on top of them. We know now how risky this really is, and the crack down is in progress.

A UN 38.5 certified battery shipped from a USA vendor, that is very pricy. But that is the only way it comes to you legal. Boat shipped to the USA by the container load, and it costs about 10 grand to get each particular battery size certified. You can get that type battery in many bike shops, but it's a special order, and they have to be willing to do it. Or just buy it on line. But it's not gonna be $400.

I even tried to return my battery but the post office wouldn't take it.

A couple more details just for information, not that it changes anything. I was running with 4 24ah sla batteries and my regular commute was 9.5 miles each way (with charge time in between). The pack weighed 65lbs but I had an electric scooter where they mounted beneath the floorboard. so the weight felt very manageable on the bike.

 

[tomjasz]

Anyone who ships batteries knows from USPS that they do not ship hazardous goods. BUT others do. UPS has a rating and specified boxes. Again, a non problem if you do a bit of research first.

 

[tomjasz]

I can go that distance on a 7s4p 24V pack. That's about a 3lb pack.

 

[Pinesal]

I can go that distance on a 7s4p 24V pack. That's about a 3lb pack.

No peddaling and a few hills?

My research shows that these RC lipos are too dangerous. I've seen recommendation that they shouldn't charge unattended. That's not going to work for me as they would be charging unattended while at work at least and I wouldn't wan to burn the place down.

 

[dingoEsride]

SLA's are a great introduction into E bikeing, ie 3 or 4 batteries at 12 volts each, pouch cells, 12 or 16 cells at 3.5 to 4.2 volts respectively, more cells but with multimeter with prongs to check 12 or 16 cells isn't too hard and somewhat rewarding to charge balance yourself with a cell charger

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

1. Lithium is way more expensive. So even if you do save enough to buy one, you just got to pray it's not a lemon.
2. They are complicated, you have that extra part, the BMS, and all it's wiring, which is nearly required. So you can have bad cells, or bad BMS, or wires. Problems can be hard to track down.
3. Related to the last, lithium is usually made up of may cells which need to stay balanced. If one cell goes bad ,you gotta go through and test possibly hundreds of cells to find it. Then replace it and connect it back to the bms. With Lead you have just 3-6 cells.
4. It's hard to get an accurate power gauge. These batteries maintain their voltage until they are almost dead. There is almost no way to tell when the battery is, say, half empty.
5. They are hard to get. I have not been able to find any local stores that sell lifepo4 batteries without it being already part of a bike. I can buy SLAs anywhere, I even get a discount on them at a local shop.
6. I have heard that SLA can provide more amp power but I have not confirmed this.

SLA batteries are so simple, they are common, cheap and easy to just trip into your system. So they are heavy and lose power over time but at least they are reliable and don't fail easily.

#1 Your problem with Lithium is an Ebay "cheap is good, cheapers' better" problem, not the battery chemistry.

# 2 - 6 See my answer to #1

First off, you need a good supplier that actually KNOWS what they are selling (most Ebay sellers have NO CLUE what they are selling, so the best they can do is send another widget and hope "angry customer" goes away, which is expensive & time consuming since they are in China.)

I will tell you, there are others out there too selling a good battery, but my favorite seller of batteries is Lunacycle.com (they are right here in the USA, building packs with quality Panasonic and Samsung 18650 cells, NOT the cheap no-name junk you likely bought from Ebay not knowing any better. :wink: )

Why? First off, their prices rival "cheap is good, cheapers' better" junk from China! Eric does this by buying in HUGE bulk like 15k 18650 cells at a time, and they are as interested in just getting E-Bikes to the masses first, making a profit second.

Check out this bad boy! 48v 11.5ah ($375, just bought one the other day) + 3a smart charger (3a is double what the typical cheapo charger puts out, and it's a metal boxed with fan cooling = $450 Shipped!!

http://lunacycle.com/hot-new/48v-panasonic-11-5ah-or-13-5ah-carbon-shark-pack/

Not only does Luna support their product (I returned a controller recently with odd connectors, my fault, I didn't look close enough) and the customer support both by email & phone is great, just yesterday I needed wiring schematics for a controller, they responded with the info I needed SAME DAY.

At risk of sounding like a promotion, I defy anyone to show me a better deal ANYWHERE!

I would add to this, they offer tutorials on how to service and replace parts on both batteries and ebike kits:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgnmE8LHWf4GmDxaNO2Zzdg/videos

Here is the video on testing out a typical BMS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jkm0tfihe0

The point is, I personally have seen their product, have a customer who has used it for most of a year with no issues, AND you don't have to do anything but use common sense, don't drain the battery till it's completely dry, and don't charge every time you ride, just when under 50%.

Finding the battery level is as easy as pushing a button as seen in the top photo, and again, I do NOT work for Lunacycles, however, I was first turned on to them when I was looking recently for a new battery and discovered not only do they have low prices, they have the best (XT 90 S & XT 60) connectors I have found in about 8 - 9 years of messing around with E-Bikes, they are standard on all their products.

The single greatest weakness you will find IMHO of the average China cheap battery/BMS/Kit is the connectors!

The first thing to often fail or cause a catastrophic failure of a poorly made battery is the connector followed by the BMS.

I don't care how good your cells are if your connectors arch and burn up or your BMS fails to shut off and or allows an overcharge (the single most "dangerous" thing done with batteries including Lead Acid) is charging and in worst case scenario, precipitates into a orange fireball!

Sure, Lead doesn't generally go into a fireball, but it's not less potentially damaging and dangerous when one explodes and sprays electrolyte everywhere if it's overcharged.

You got off lucky!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=83208&p=1220343#p1220343

That was Tor's experience with a China cheap battery!

 

[Pinesal]

Great points, LI-ghtcycle, if I end up buying a lithium battery, it will be from Lunacycle. Thanks,.

 

[tomjasz]

There are no budget priced battery packs built from bare cells, in the USA. It's ALL China. It depends on the supplier and the standards they set...

Sadly 36V batteries are become scarcer. Forcing many to build their own. And that's not cheap. All the bits and pieces add to the costs. In the long run it makes sense for someone with multiple bikes or needing a special config or shape.

 

[MadRhino]

My research shows that these RC lipos are too dangerous. I've seen recommendation that they shouldn't charge unattended. That's not going to work for me as they would be charging unattended while at work at least and I wouldn't wan to burn the place down.

Yep, you need to be watching all the time while they charge. If you do, they are not dangerous. People who burn the place down charging RC Lipo's, are either stupid, distracted or ignorant. That is why I said they are not the best battery solution for everyone. Yet, stupid people can set fire to almost any battery.

The good point is that quality RC Lipo's can be charged (and discharged) very fast. Even the cheap ones can be charged pretty fast, after you carefully tested them. I charge mine in 7 minutes and believe me, I am never tempted to leave them charging alone. It is my 7th year using Lico chemistry, and I've never set fire to a single cell. They are much safer than gas, for they warn you with smell and smoke before they catch fire and you have plenty of time to stop charging and unplug.

 

[DRMousseau]

I truly wish more people had a better understanding of the various batteries they depend on every day, often in critical uses and applications. Each have unique limitations, as well as various hazards,... some more, some less. But a greater knowledge and more through understanding sure seems awfully important in our modern cultures.

Personally, I find the SLA and other VRLA batteries to be my least favorite among those of similar class. I live year around in a comfortable motorhome and prefer a quality bank of heavy 6V deep-cycles for my power requirements, rather than the typical 12V bank of recreational use that is more common. Yes they have special requirements of close monitoring and attention,... and I enjoy a longer life of greater economy and much more usage than others may experience.

My e-bike is my main, "everyday transportation". And without todays modern battery technology, I would likely have preferred a small gas engine or a simple 12-speed bicycle. While I DO have a high quality pack (LunaCycles 52V Panasonic 11.5ah performance 14s4p pack), it doesn't mean I can be slack in my care and attention to it!!! My personal safety (and that of my home), demands extra care in every area of ALL battery usage and applications,... and I do have ALOT of various batteries to care for. I can NOT afford to assume every battery will perform to the standards we often take for granted, even after prolonged and proven service and reliability. Many live dangerously with their cell phones, laptops and tablets, and totally ignore their auto, flashlights, and smoke alarms,... until they fail, and sometimes, with catastrophic results.

Lithium chemistries ARE sensitive,.... more so than the alkaline ones you jus threw carelessly into the kitchen drawer beside the dishwasher.