Why I don't like lithium batteries

[LI-ghtcycle]

There are no budget priced battery packs built from bare cells, in the USA. It's ALL China. It depends on the supplier and the standards they set...

Sadly 36V batteries are become scarcer. Forcing many to build their own. And that's not cheap. All the bits and pieces add to the costs. In the long run it makes sense for someone with multiple bikes or needing a special config or shape.

Ok, so you want to compare apples to apples or are you saying that there is no difference between cheap fake copies of good Japanese (Panasonic) or Korean (Samsung) 18560 cells? :wink:

I'm not sure if you haven't seen the 36V section of batteries on Luna's site? They still have some:

http://lunacycle.com/36v/

Sure, most manufacturing for ANYTHING you buy is from China, I may have mis-spoke, but the point is, you cannot compare Ebay "cell of the week" fake Chinese cells with faulty a BMS to the real deal that Luna sells.

Hell, even my Cro Motor is manufactured in China, but that doesn't mean it isn't a quality product designed in Croatia, and with the results I get, I believe the 93% + efficiency!

How much assembly is done in China and how much is done in the USA, really doesn't matter much to me, it's the fact that the quality of the product is backed up by a company in the USA, and they have enough inventory right here to replace a bad pack.

They also show you how to diagnose problems or service your kit with videos.

And other than low budget systems or ultralight ones using Astro Motors (Tangent comes to mind), if you're using less than 48V, your loosing a lot of wattage to waste heat needing higher amps to do the same work with a typical E-Bike motor.

I have noticed a considerable jump in efficiency by going up to 72V (20s Li-Ion) from 66.6V (18s LiPo) on a cargo bike pulling a trailer (gross weight 444 lbs rider + bike + 150lbs cargo) and sure, I didn't build the E-Zilla bike to be an "ultra miler". :lol:

I built it to go to track days at Portland International Raceway (hopefully in the near future when I get a bit more budget to get a stronger controller & battery).

That said, I was still able to go on a pretty long trip up and down some very steep long hills on this battery (sans trailer, just me at 180 lbs + 114 lbs bike = 294 Gross) for about 18 miles averaging 9 Wh/Mile with ZERO pedaling, this is because the BB spindle is shot, and I need to have a custom 19 mm (3/4") one made before I can pedal again. I did this with as much coasting as possible, but I still had to climb back up a 2 mile long 5% average grade hill. This was a pretty slow trip too, probably averaging closer to 10 mph but you get the point.

 

[tomjasz]

My point was simple, you've made more of it than intended. I'm reiterating, there are no USA made budget packs. I went on to say or imply, quality depends on monitoring the China builder. No reseller mentioned or implied.

 

[Alan B]

Alkaline batteries are designed to leak and corrode all your electronics so you have to replace it, to keep the manufacturers in business.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Alkaline batteries are designed to leak and corrode all your electronics so you have to replace it, to keep the manufacturers in business.

Ssssshhh!!! Don't give away SLA's next big marketing idea! :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

Re the post office,, you cannot legally mail a large lithium battery. The size limit is very small. UPS and Fedex will take a larger lithium battery that is properly packed and labeled for ground ship only. Proper packing is a fireproof media like vermiculite.

But that's not the end of the story,, that properly labeled battery is still illegal to ship by ground in the US unless it has UN38.5 certification. And you know what,, if you know there is a defect,, it's no longer certified. Under no circumstances can you ship back a known to be damaged lithium battery the size of one used in bikes.

So you all that want to ship back a defect battery,, be aware you are not covered by any kind of insurance for illegally shipping your battery back. So if UPS decides to sue you for a burnt down truck,, have fun.

Re the cheap batteries,, It's very important to know your US based vendor has not been sold fakes. If you are expecting 10 ah, and it discharges 8 or less, then likely the cells inside are cheapies. Vendors who sell good cells rarely have this issue with brand new packs. But fakes and b grade cells are nearly always found to be lower capacity than spec. So if you do ebay,, you have to know who this person is, what their reputation for good cells is, and so on. You may not give a shit that your vendor doesn't UN certify, but you do care that the pack delivers when you get it.

After all, you can't mail it back.

Smart US based vendors don't sell bogus packs. If they do, they will lose so much money they can't stay in business. If Luna Cycle sold shitty counterfit cell packs, and then told his customers to get lost when they have a complaint, this forum would be full of people complaining. It's not.

But Tom is right, the one seller who does assemble a legit cell pack in the USA is not cheap at all. That's allcell. I don't know of any other actually assembling packs in the USA. If Luna does assemble packs in the USA, I'm just not aware of it. But where ever the assembly is done, there is no way you can say a Luna pack is as shoddily assembled as some, such as V power HK. Luna simply can't stay in business in the US and sell crap. A lot of ebike vendors were driven out of the business by selling a shit battery. Those that remain operating now, know better.

 

[gogo]

But that's not the end of the story,, that properly labeled battery is still illegal to ship by ground in the US unless it has UN38.5 certification.

Is there a good source on this claim?

 

[Chalo]

But Tom is right, the one seller who does assemble a legit cell pack in the USA is not cheap at all. That's allcell. I don't know of any other actually assembling packs in the USA. If Luna does assemble packs in the USA, I'm just not aware of it.

I believe Electricrider in San Angelo TX does pack assembly in house.

 

[gogo]

But Tom is right, the one seller who does assemble a legit cell pack in the USA is not cheap at all. That's allcell. I don't know of any other actually assembling packs in the USA. If Luna does assemble packs in the USA, I'm just not aware of it.

I believe Electricrider in San Angelo TX does pack assembly in house.

Its not finished-pack, but my local Interstate Battery store offers cell welding services. A few years ago I got a quote for welding some A123 cans, but the price seemed high at the time.

 

[Alan B]

My understanding is that Batteryspace in Richmond does some local assembly, they also have a factory overseas. I don't know how they divide the work.

Luna has said they are working at getting battery assembly local, I have no data on this.

 

[cell_man]

.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Good points cell_man, and I agree, Elon Musk is doing it right!

Lots of people talk about what should be done, he has the means and the will and is just making it happen!

If I do buy a car in the future, I hope it will be a Tesla once they are closer to the $20k or less range (or perhaps a good used one) maybe the model 5 will be closer to what I can afford in the future.

I agree also that anything made in the USA is going to naturally be more expensive to manufacture due to increased labor costs (which I wouldn't mind paying if I can afford them) and quality should never take a back seat to price.

The battery is always my main investment for any E-Bike, IMHO and if I seek to reduce costs anywhere, that would be the last component to compromise on, as it is the major factor in making a good E-Bike since no other component is quite as crucial.

I hope that Tesla's giga factory is going to perhaps bring down some of the prices of our favorite 18650 cells since he is buying in such volume, I would imagine it could have an effect on the world market and perhaps "raise all ships" so that as long as someone is able to buy in enough volume.

 

[t_tberg]

cell_man you make some awesome points, I think it's also worth considering the social and environmental costs of significantly cheaper labor...

 

[footloose]

Frankly, I think it would be better if people focussed more energy on making better and safer batteries, not just having the lowest possible price/cost as their main focus, not just out-cheeping the Chinese.

Unfortunately many vendors focus primarily on what most consumers demand above all else: rock bottom price.

Ray Davies nailed consumer psychology in Low Budget:
"I'm shopping at Woolworths and low discount stores,
I'm dropping my standards so I can buy more..."

Thank you (and other vendors here) for focusing instead on good quality at fair price.

 

[LockH]

Thank you (and other vendors here) for focusing instead on good quality at fair price.

Plus 1 on that! ^^ I've sorta concluded that "cheap" to purchase = lower design and assembly = higher costs to maintain, lower reliability, shorter useful life. (So I try not to buy "on impulse", do some research before hand. Then buy two of everything to have "spares" handy.)

 

[lwik]

Great points, LI-ghtcycle, if I end up buying a lithium battery, it will be from Lunacycle. Thanks,.

I bought a 52V 15AH battery from HPC. The battery was $1K but it is high quality with built in BMS. Just finished a 600 mile 14 day big tour from SF to LA. Lots of hills on highway 1 and I was a total of 435 lbs. with a 2000 watt front motor. The battery performed great. So many people buy cheap batteries on places like eBay that come from China. Save up and spend the extra money on a GOOD battery and you will be happy, plus have local support.

 

[wesnewell]

In June of 2012 I bought 12 5000mah 20C 4s rc lipo packs and put together a 24s2p 88.8V 888wh pack for $275 shipped. I just replaced it with another set of the same I paid $217 for shipped. A test of an old pack showed I still had 90% capacity with over 15K miles and over 4 years on it. So let me know how that pack of yours is doing 15k miles and 4 years from now. BTW, mine cost ~1 cent per mile. For you to get the same value, you'll need to get 100K miles from it. Good luck.

 

[tomjasz]

In June of 2012 I bought 12 5000mah 20C 4s rc lipo packs and put together a 24s2p 88.8V 888wh pack for $275 shipped. I just replaced it with another set of the same I paid $217 for shipped. A test of an old pack showed I still had 90% capacity with over 15K miles and over 4 years on it. So let me know how that pack of yours is doing 15k miles and 4 years from now. BTW, mine cost ~1 cent per mile. For you to get the same value, you'll need to get 100K miles from it. Good luck.

You're an inspiration for the cheap seats and successfully avoiding blowing yourself up, or crashing due to a catastrophic failure of the cheap frames you push beyond their limits. Seriously, it's impressive. But not everyones cuppa. I get a big grin with every sarcastic slam you pitch.
All the best!

T

 

[wesnewell]

Some may call me cheap, but I just refuse to buy into all the elitest crap thrown out here. A decent cheap bike frame will be stronger than most of the expensive ones simply because they don't care about shaving a pound off the weight. Granted the wheels, rim, tires, etc. are probably the weakest, but they need to be replaced on about any bike you buy to convert it to electric. First thing I did with the bike I'm riding now is replace the wheels, tires, and brake pads as soon as I rode it home. The only other thing was replace the BB bearings after about a year and 4K miles. Cheap 9 ball cages replaced with 11 ball cage bearings. Got about 4 years and 12K miles on the bike now at speeds up to 61 mph. As for the batteries, well I think I've already said enough. Now I'm no lightweight, although in the last few months I've gone from 270 lbs to 220 lbs, and the cheap bike has held up fine and I expect it will out last me. The one thing I don'y like about the forum is the way many people try and convince others they need to speed a bunch of money fro a decent ebike. That's just crap and self serving in many instances.

 

[MadRhino]

In June of 2012 I bought 12 5000mah 20C 4s rc lipo packs and put together a 24s2p 88.8V 888wh pack for $275 shipped. I just replaced it with another set of the same I paid $217 for shipped. A test of an old pack showed I still had 90% capacity with over 15K miles and over 4 years on it. So let me know how that pack of yours is doing 15k miles and 4 years from now. BTW, mine cost ~1 cent per mile. For you to get the same value, you'll need to get 100K miles from it. Good luck.

You're an inspiration for the cheap seats and successfully avoiding blowing yourself up, or crashing due to a catastrophic failure of the cheap frames you push beyond their limits. Seriously, it's impressive. But not everyones cuppa. I get a big grin with every sarcastic slam you pitch.
All the best!

T

RC Lipo is not that cheap for everyone. I buy 1000 $ a year at least, to run 2 bikes a lot of power and mileage. Yet, I am happy with them size and quick charging. I still plan to build one with round cells some day: An extra long range, heavy Chopper for weekend trips with my GF on the bitch pad. :wink:

 

[tomjasz]

But that's not the end of the story,, that properly labeled battery is still illegal to ship by ground in the US unless it has UN38.5 certification.

Is there a good source on this claim?

Google lithium shipping regulations. It's more than a claim. UPS and the regs even spec packaging.

 

[tomjasz]

Some may call me cheap, but I just refuse to buy into all the elitest crap thrown out here. A decent cheap bike frame will be stronger than most of the expensive ones simply because they don't care about shaving a pound off the weight. Granted the wheels, rim, tires, etc. are probably the weakest, but they need to be replaced on about any bike you buy to convert it to electric. First thing I did with the bike I'm riding now is replace the wheels, tires, and brake pads as soon as I rode it home. The only other thing was replace the BB bearings after about a year and 4K miles. Cheap 9 ball cages replaced with 11 ball cage bearings. Got about 4 years and 12K miles on the bike now at speeds up to 61 mph. As for the batteries, well I think I've already said enough. Now I'm no lightweight, although in the last few months I've gone from 270 lbs to 220 lbs, and the cheap bike has held up fine and I expect it will out last me. The one thing I don'y like about the forum is the way many people try and convince others they need to speed a bunch of money fro a decent ebike. That's just crap and self serving in many instances.

You know your builds are brilliant. I applaud them. But to think everyone will see it your way and dragging sophomoric insults into the differences and discussion is just a plain waste. I can see the differences in my bikes. I think I'm safer. But hey, knock yourself out. I share your posts without the vitriol and a warning. It all breaks. Some sooner.

 

[dogman dan]

Nearly to the cesspool now. :wink:

 

[Green Machine]

Luna does build many of their packs in the USA and have done so for years. No we cant keep up with demand and moved hard case production to asia using large commercial pack manufacturers and using our cells to ensure authenticity.


Our headquarters is located in the same city as Space-x by the way and have a working relationship with them more than i am allowed or willing to say. There is a reason why most of our cells are panasonic lately..... and i look forward to the day that our batteries can be made completely in the usa...from cell to pack and others (in high places) share my vision.

And speaking of space x, building a battery pack in house in not rocket science.... it is not hard....it is not that labor intensive if you have proper machinery. Of course its cheaper to build in china...but you have the big problem its hard to get authentic 18650 cells in china and its getting harder to transport them as packs, and of course there is quality control.. The logistics of transporting is the hard part and when you think of that you start to get into the real game.

Assembling an 18650 pack is something most es people can do and we all know its not that hard. Its the components that are hard....a good bms is hard... and nothing compared to Making a proper lithium 18650 CELL...and something china has not been able to do...and is something that has been left to the koreans and the japanese.....but that is about to change massively thanks to the innovations of space x and a battery factory in the desert in nevada. Just wait until Luna can buy their 18650s locally....the transporting of lithium is the hard part. And america is finding a way to compete within our borders.

I agree shipping a battery legally is hard....and few ebike sellers are following the rules when it comes to shipping. I dont see how any china vendor can legally ship an ebike battery anywhere in the world by air legally. Maybe their are loopholes but I dont see them and i know this game well... the laws have gotten more rigorous and will keep getting harder. Sure its easier to break the rules when your in china....but you are on shakey ground and everyone knows it.

Luna decided to follow shipping rules early on and are hazmat certified and follow the rules and choose NOT to air ship batteries. Despite this most of our packs are are un 3483 certified and therefore qualified for air shipping which i dont think many vendors can claim.

And honestly...all cell has been around for 6 years and i have not heard talk of them on these forums until lately. I have some brand new all cell packs i cant sale with a straight face next to luna packs. Even at my cost.



all cell packs consist of chinese 18650 cells and have a 35 amp bms. I bought 20 of them and had nothing but problems and then all cell raised the price on me so i couldnt use them on my bike. Good luck with all cell warranty support.. i wasnt able to get it and that was aftter buying 20 and being the electricbike.com editor.

All cell is a big reason why i got into this business..... usa buyers needed better options....now they have one.

 

[imidacloprid]

I don't like them because they need Subsidy to be recycled and not end as toxic land filler.

Have a look here http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/battery_recycling_as_a_business

Lead acid is recycle able with profit all other not.

PS: Watch the price for Lithium iron phosphate. Makes one wonder why Lifepo4 is still more expensive than other.

 

[tomjasz]

Luna does build many of their packs in the USA and have done so for years. No we cant keep up with demand and moved hard case production to asia using large commercial pack manufacturers and using our cells to ensure authenticity.

i can't find any confirmation anywhere.