Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Punx0r said:
furcifer said:
It's from the Journal of Environment and Development :roll:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1070496516631362

You didn't cite a source so I Googled it and the JoED article isn't indexed by Google.

Weird. I was going to cite it but I thought there was enough text for Google to grab it if someone was interested.

I briefly opened the link you put up and it scared me. :shock:
 
cricketo said:
furcifer said:
breaks down pretty quick.

9 years.

Yah, that's pretty quick.

I'm not all that up on climate science these days so I could be wrong. But the basic gist of it was although methane has a much higher warming potential as a gas, the production by ruminants in and of itself isn't a big deal. It's a natural byproduct of plants breaking down, so you have to figure whether it's done in the stomach of a cow or bacteria in a marsh it's happening all the time.

Climate science is pretty interesting, but it is surprisingly complicated. It's a lot of intertwining cycles and processes. That's one of the reasons I take every "report" with a grain of salt. I realize it'e necessary to make long term projections in order to make decisions on what to do, but they sure seem to change a lot. At the end of the day I think most people look out the window and ask themselves whether they can live with what's outside today or not. I realize that's short sighted but it's a lot more real than computer models. I'm not sure if people can be expected to look much further. I like this forum because I think a lot of people here are taking some initiative for their carbon footprint and pushing the technology further. At this point in time maybe that's all we can do.
 
furcifer said:
the production by ruminants in and of itself isn't a big deal

A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect on the climate of Methane is 23 times higher than the effect of CO2. Therefore the release of about 100 kg Methane per year for each cow is equivalent to about 2'300 kg CO2 per year.
Let's compare this value of 2'300 kg CO2: The same amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) is generated by burning 1'000 liters of petrol. With a car using 8 liters of petrol per 100 km, you could drive 12'500 km per year (7'800 miles per year).

World-wide, there are about 1.5 billion cows and bulls. All ruminants (animals which regurgitates food and re-chews it) on the world emit about two billion metric tons of CO2-equivalents per year. In addition, clearing of tropical forests and rain forests to get more grazing land and farm land is responsible for an extra 2.8 billion metric tons of CO2 emission per year!

https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2
 
cricketo said:
https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-cause-of-global-warming-meat-methane-CO2

You can't compare carbon in the active carbon cycle to the release of sequestered carbon. This is the mistake that people make all the time.

If the cow didn't eat the grass the carbon in the grass doesn't DISAPPEAR. It's not like burning 1000 liters of gas. The carbon in the gas was locked in a complex molecule, stored underground for millions of years.



What are the sources of methane (Figure 10)? The 1992 Report of the Intergorvernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) lists the largest natural source of methane to be wetlands, which produce 115 teragrams (1012 grams) of carbon annually. The uncertainty in these numbers, however, is very large. Termites are very significant producers of methane in that they eat wood and release methane in the digestion process. The ocean produces about 10 teragrams per year of methane, and fresh water and methane hydrate contribute smaller amounts.

Anthropogenic sources include the coal mining, natural gas, and petroleum industries at about 100 teragrams, which is almost as much as natural wetlands. Rice paddies produce on the order of 60 teragrams by means of a process where methane produced in the soil is able to travel up to the hollow stem of the rice plant and be released into the atmosphere without passing through the water, which would tend to suppress the evolution of methane gas (Figure 11).

Enteric fermentation, the digestion process in ruminant animals such as cattle, sheep and goats, produces very large amounts of methane. Animal wastes produce about 25 teragrams; domestic sewage, 25 teragrams; landfills about 30 teragrams; and biomass burning, about 40 teragrams. Some landfills are now being tapped for their methane as a source of power production. This makes good sense on the basis of global warming in addition to getting a "free" source of combustion gas. Burning one methane molecule produces one CO2 molecule, but the global warming potential is reduced by a factor of 20 because the carbon dioxide molecule is only about one-twentieth as effective as the methane molecule in absorbing infrared radiation.

Increases in animal populations are contributing to the increase in atmospheric methane. Figure 12 shows recent increases in several different classes of livestock. If humans continue to have an appetite for meat, the upward trend in animal production and resulting production of methane will likely continue. A particular situation to watch is the development and possible dietary changes in China. If we examine the eating habits of Japan, South Korea, and other Asian nations that have developed very rapidly, one of the significant changes that occurs during economic development is that people's eating habits change from eating primarily grains, mainly rice in these cases, to substantial increases in meat. The big question on the horizon right now is what's going to happen in China? China has an enormous population and it is developing extremely rapidly. If China follows the pattern of other Asian nations, the demand for meat will increase dramatically. I have estimated that if every person in China at a MacDonald's Quarter Pounder every 10 days, raising the beef to meet this demand would consume all the corn grown in Iowa.

The most common way of comparing the greenhouse gas effect of different gases is to express them as carbon dioxide equivalents, i.e. how much carbon dioxide corresponds to a pulse (a one-time) emission of the gas in question. The most common way of expressing this is by the unit GWP-100, which express the cumulative forcing over hundred years. For methane (CH4) the GWP-100 value is 28, i.e. a pulse of methane emission of 1 kg corresponds to a pulse of 28 kg carbon dioxide emission. But we could equally use other figures as shown in the table below (from the IPCC Synthesis report 2014). For example the GTP-100 measures the actual temperature change after 100 years. With that measurement a pulse of 1 kg methane corresponds only to 4 kg of carbon dioxide. The actual effect on the temperature is probably more in line with what most people expect of the comparisons between greenhouse gases.

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-10-20/false-methane-math/
But neither the GWP nor the GTP can properly reflect the difference between short lived greenhouse gases such as methane and long-lived carbon dioxide. In the article New use of global warming potentials to compare cumulative and short-lived climate pollutants in Nature Climate Change Myles Allen and colleagues demonstrate how the calculations for expressing methane in carbon dioxide equivalents hides a lot of information. For short-lived greenhouse gases the comparison with carbon dioxide based on a pulse of emissions of both gases gives a reasonably correct result only in a time span of a few decades. In the longer term, the more correct comparison is between a pulse of carbon dioxide and an constant rate of methane emissions. [ed. note: the preceding sentence was corrected 14/12/17.] Or as expressed in the article

It goes on. I would urge you, if you have any interest in coming to a conclusion, and not validating your own preconceptions, read as much as you can. Never stick to any single source or ideology.
 
furcifer said:
You do understand ....etc..
Yes, i do understand !
..i also understand that the amount of CO2 generated by all of mans activities is a small fraction (<5%) of the “ESTIMATED”. Total carbon cycle... in fact its only a fraction of the likely error in those total carbon estimates !
We may know (approx ?) how much gas and coal etc is burned, but we dont know how much CO2 is released or adsorbed by natural processes..All we have is ESTIMATES...with their inherent error potential.
So the base measurements are debatable , as is the assumption that any increase in atmospheric CO2 is the result of fossil burning....that is still just a THEORY. ( guilt by association..circumstantial etc)..with NO SCIENTIFIC evidence to back it up.
The only fact that can be verified , is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, which ..as i said is influenced by many many other systems,..including , most significantly, surface temperatures .
What we know for sure is we are releasing CO2 at an unprecedented rate since the industrial revolution.
“Unprecedented”. In terms of more than 100 yrs ago, or maybe even more than your human scale expectations.
..but as i said above, it is a minor quantity compared to the natural variations in natural emissions.
To change the acidity of the entire ocean with the added CO2, ..
Your choice of words defines your pre-concieved bias..
The Oceans can NEVER be acidic..all that can happen is their level of ALKALINITY may change !
 
Hillhater said:
We may know (approx ?) how much gas and coal etc is burned, but we dont know how much CO2 is released or adsorbed by natural processes..All we have is ESTIMATES...with their inherent error potential.
Let's say you have a big tank of water. You're not sure whether the tank is leaking or being filled. But it's staying at about the same level.

Then you start pouring water into the tank; hundreds of gallons a minute. The level starts rising. You measure the level it's rising, figure out the area, and calculate that the level is increasing by hundreds of gallons a minute.

You now know you are raising the level of the tank by adding water. That's math. Any other conclusion is wishful thinking.

(Although I can imagine if you really want to dump your sewer in that tank, and you find out that the owner of the tank doesn't like people dumping sewage in it, you might try an argument like that. "It's not me! NO ONE KNOWS why the water is rising! It's just an ESTIMATE!")
So the base measurements are debatable
Nope, not at all. We have very accurate accountings of how much fossil fuel is burned and how fast the CO2 level is rising.
The only fact that can be verified , is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere . . .
Which gives us volume of CO2 being added. We can also measure how much fossil fuel is burned, since it costs money and people keep receipts.
The Oceans can NEVER be acidic..all that can happen is their level of ALKALINITY may change !
You are remarkably scientifically illiterate. No wonder you deny climate change science.
 
Hillhater said:
So the base measurements are debatable , as is the assumption that any increase in atmospheric CO2 is the result of fossil burning....that is still just a THEORY. ( guilt by association..circumstantial etc)..with NO SCIENTIFIC evidence to back it up.
The only fact that can be verified , is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, which ..as i said is influenced by many many other systems,..including , most significantly, surface temperatures .

It's not a theory??? There is carbon in fossil fuels, that's experimentally verifiable. The chemical composition is known, and has been for quite some time. It was under the ground, now it's in the air. That's verifiable.

There is tons of scientific evidence to back that up. It's 3rd grade chemistry.

The dispute about baseline measurements have nothing to do with the influx due to fossil fuels. The amount of anthropogenic CO2 is also a known a verifiable quantity. It's not exact, but it doesn't need to be.

I don't mean to offend but the things you are saying seem to come from very old "denier" rhetoric. The natural variation in atmospheric CO2 no longer masks anthropogenic CO2. Not that it ever did, but there wasn't enough evidence to draw conclusions, despite the obvious. Over the years study after study has shown the amount of CO2 has increased drastically since the industrial revolution, and in particular the wide spread use of the ICE.

So the data is there and it's not a theory. What is a theory, or a source for speculation at least in how those figures can be used to create models and predictions. Especially 25, 50 or 100 years from now.

eta: I'm reading a bit more and thinking back. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that posted numbers on the amount of carbon in the Universe?
I'm getting the impression that this is a new form of hand waving. "There's lots of carbon, so carbon is good, and it would take lots more carbon to be bad"?
I will say this, regardless of how much carbon there is, there is a tipping point. It's not the single straw that broke the camel's back.
 
furcifer said:
You can't compare carbon in the active carbon cycle to the release of sequestered carbon. This is the mistake that people make all the time.

If the cow didn't eat the grass, there wouldn't be additional methane in the atmosphere EQUIVALENT of that amount of carbon. So I'm not yet convinced the mistake is mine.
 
billvon said:
Hillhater said:
We may know (approx ?) how much gas and coal etc is burned, but we dont know how much CO2 is released or adsorbed by natural processes..All we have is ESTIMATES...with their inherent error potential.
Let's say you have a big tank of water. You're not sure whether the tank is leaking or being filled. But it's staying at about the same level.

Then you start pouring water into the tank; hundreds of gallons a minute. The level starts rising. You measure the level it's rising, figure out the area, and calculate that the level is increasing by hundreds of gallons a minute.

You now know you are raising the level of the tank by adding water. That's math. Any other conclusion is wishful thinking.

(Although I can imagine if you really want to dump your sewer in that tank, and you find out that the owner of the tank doesn't like people dumping sewage in it, you might try an argument like that. "It's not me! NO ONE KNOWS why the water is rising! It's just an ESTIMATE!")
So the base measurements are debatable
Nope, not at all. We have very accurate accountings of how much fossil fuel is burned and how fast the CO2 level is rising.
The only fact that can be verified , is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere . . .
Which gives us volume of CO2 being added. We can also measure how much fossil fuel is burned, since it costs money and people keep receipts.
The Oceans can NEVER be acidic..all that can happen is their level of ALKALINITY may change !
You are remarkably scientifically illiterate. No wonder you deny climate change science.
Too simplistic again bill...
What if your tank is also being “Naturally “ refilled at an ESTIMATED several thousand gpm ,(+- 10%),.. and at the same time leaking several thousand gpm (+-10%) all ESTIMATED....
...and you know that the level has fluctuated big time previous to you beginning to add your 100gpm..
it is impossible to be sure its your 100gpm that is causing the increase ?...that is just an assumption, a THEORY.
Do you seriously expect me to believe that the Oceans are becoming acidic ? rather than simply changing ALKALINITY. ?
i know it sounds better in your belief set to mention acidity, but it is not very convincing.
... Nor are personal insults !.
 
Methane only persists in the atmosphere for about a decade compared to a couple of centuries for CO2, so while we can influence the short-term levels of it, it's still operating within it's natural cycle. As pointed out above, this isn't the same as injecting sequestered carbon into the normal carbon cycle.


furcifer said:
I don't mean to offend but the things you are saying seem to come from very old "denier" rhetoric...eta: I'm reading a bit more and thinking back. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that posted numbers on the amount of carbon in the Universe?

There are three main characters in this thread:

TheBeastie who posts long diatribes (possibly copy & pasted) with lots of youtube video links with the lowest grade of denialism. It was him who protested about intergalactic carbon.

HillHater who is more coherent and tries to take a logical approach but believes everyone else is incompetent and won't believe anything than his own opinions.

Sendler isn't a climate change denier but believes society is going to collapse without fossil fuels and there's nothing we can do to avoid it. General harbinger of doom.

There's a common theme of distrust in governmental or non-governmental organisations and a lesser one of anti-intellectualism.

We've had anti-science for ~100 pages now so when you popped up saying it's indefensible to not let the third world burn all the fossil fuels they want, like the first world did and preventing climate change is impossible cos the economy, it seemed like just variation on what we've already had plenty of. Just another page from the denialist's manifesto.

The ocean acidification is something we had 30 or 40 pages back. Hillhater asserts climate scientists/marine biologists/chemists have all outed themselves as morons because unless the oceans pass under pH 7 they can't become "more acidic": they're actually becoming "less alkaline" and thus falsifies their claims that CO2 is changing the pH of the oceans. It's kinda sad.
 
cricketo said:
furcifer said:
You can't compare carbon in the active carbon cycle to the release of sequestered carbon. This is the mistake that people make all the time.
If the cow didn't eat the grass, there wouldn't be additional methane in the atmosphere EQUIVALENT of that amount of carbon. So I'm not yet convinced the mistake is mine.

I think maybe you need to look at short term and long term pulses. And again, you need to look at warming potential between CO2 being converted to methane, and CO2 (or methane) being produced from sequestered carbon. Then you need to read the IPCC studies like the one I cited, where methane is considered, but recommendations clearly state the required course of action is reducing CO2 emissions from fossil fuels.

I don't think you're mistaken per se, but I'm almost positive you're over emphasizing the issue while ignoring the elephant in the room.
I'll try to find more comparative studies. A lot of times they're more helpful in understanding the issues. It's quite easy for people to read a study and draw conclusions to support their own arguments that don't necessarily follow. I know I've done that in the past myself.
 
Punx0r said:
Methane only persists in the atmosphere for about a decade compared to a couple of centuries for CO2, so while we can influence the short-term levels of it, it's still operating within it's natural cycle. As pointed out above, this isn't the same as injecting sequestered carbon into the normal carbon cycle.


furcifer said:
I don't mean to offend but the things you are saying seem to come from very old "denier" rhetoric...eta: I'm reading a bit more and thinking back. I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that posted numbers on the amount of carbon in the Universe?

There are three main characters in this thread:

TheBeastie who posts long diatribes (possibly copy & pasted) with lots of youtube video links with the lowest grade of denialism. It was him who protested about intergalactic carbon.

HillHater who is more coherent and tries to take a logical approach but believes everyone else is incompetent and won't believe anything than his own opinions.

Sendler isn't a climate change denier but believes society is going to collapse without fossil fuels and there's nothing we can do to avoid it. General harbinger of doom.

There's a common theme of distrust in governmental or non-governmental organisations and a lesser one of anti-intellectualism.

We've had anti-science for ~100 pages now so when you popped up saying it's indefensible to not let the third world burn all the fossil fuels they want, like the first world did and preventing climate change is impossible cos the economy, it seemed like just variation on what we've already had plenty of. Just another page from the denialist's manifesto.

The ocean acidification is something we had 30 or 40 pages back. Hillhater asserts climate scientists/marine biologists/chemists have all outed themselves as morons because unless the oceans pass under pH 7 they can't become "more acidic": they're actually becoming "less alkaline" and thus falsifies their claims that CO2 is changing the pH of the oceans. It's kinda sad.

Cool.

I think I find myself somewhere in between. Depending on the crowd you can find yourself labelled a denier, or an alarmist.

I do think we may need to prepare for the worst and allow the developing world access to cheap energy, which will probably entail using fossil fuels. I recall Westinghouse had designs on small and very safe nuclear reactors 15 years ago and nothing has ever come of it. Short of something like that being rolled out on a global scale I'm pretty sure we're on course to suck every drop out of the ground over the next 75 years.
I think there are pretty obvious solutions that have been completely overlooked. I'd like to say we'd be in a much better place today if we had shifted away from the automobile to high speed rail over the last 60 years. It's hard to say, the North American economy was built on the automobile and the unions. Today neither seem to be effective but you can't forget past contributions.
I would strongly argue that renewables and alternatives are a waste of time until highspeed rail stretches from New York to LA and Montreal to Mexico City. We could probably talk Trudeau into it, but there's no way Trump will be on board unless he can find a short term way to profit from it. Infrastructure is too long term for his greedy little mind.

Maybe you could get him to take the money for the Wall and spend it on hiring and registering illegal immigrants to build the high speed rail from LA to Mexico. Then say it's the fastest way to legalize and deport aliens while also helping the country. And maybe make it into a TV show.
 
I've been nominated for General! But I am just a Sergeant on the ground. And not so much a harbinger of doom. More of a soothsayer of sustainability. Mullah of misguided monetary momentum. Purveyor of prefrontal predisposition. I will list the General's sites, essays and lectures in a later post when I get the time so that most of you can willfully ignore this essential information once again.
Buckminster Fuller, Donella Meadows, Herman Daly, Richard Heinberg, Charles Hall, Nate Hagens & D.J. White, Jason Bradford, Tom Murphy, David MacKay, Daniel Christian Wahl, ect.
 
"Moving towards a regenerative human culture depends on first stopping and then reversing this steady trend towards Overshoot Day occurring earlier and earlier each year. Until one day in the future we can celebrate the fact that Earth overshoot day exists no longer and we have collectively managed to meet human needs within the limits of the planet’s capacity to regenerate and provide.

Sounds idealistic and utopian? Well, the science is simple: there is no other way to chart our path into a distant future on this planet. We need to first roll back Earth Overshoot Day and then begin to create a culture that aims to leave a richer, more vibrant and more ecologically productive planet to each subsequent generation."
.
https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/rolling-back-earth-overshoot-day-ac81dff1b4ea?fbclid=IwAR0fllgl0RxgEudTB70KY3aIGxoPUkU-r5ngpXFGLS7CWaX2yobAIwx31Ng
 
Hillhater said:
Do you seriously expect me to believe that the Oceans are becoming acidic ? rather than simply changing ALKALINITY. ?
No, I don't expect you to believe anything but denier propaganda - no matter what the scientists say. The fact is that the oceans are becoming more acidic due to dissolved CO2, and no amount of word games will change that.
 
sendler2112 said:
"Moving towards a regenerative human culture depends on first stopping and then reversing this steady trend towards Overshoot Day occurring earlier and earlier each year. Until one day in the future we can celebrate the fact that Earth overshoot day exists no longer and we have collectively managed to meet human needs within the limits of the planet’s capacity to regenerate and provide.

Sounds idealistic and utopian? Well, the science is simple: there is no other way to chart our path into a distant future on this planet. We need to first roll back Earth Overshoot Day and then begin to create a culture that aims to leave a richer, more vibrant and more ecologically productive planet to each subsequent generation."
.
https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/rolling-back-earth-overshoot-day-ac81dff1b4ea?fbclid=IwAR0fllgl0RxgEudTB70KY3aIGxoPUkU-r5ngpXFGLS7CWaX2yobAIwx31Ng

"Sustainability" is very hard to argue against.
 
billvon said:
Hillhater said:
Do you seriously expect me to believe that the Oceans are becoming acidic ? rather than simply changing ALKALINITY. ?
No, I don't expect you to believe anything but denier propaganda - no matter what the scientists say. The fact is that the oceans are becoming more acidic due to dissolved CO2, and no amount of word games will change that.

I'm not sure it's a word game. I think it might be a lack of understanding. Alkaline and alkalinity aren't the same thing and I know I get confused. As it's written it doesn't make any sense, it's like saying "You think I'm getting poorer just because I don't have a job?" while holding a bank statement that's clearly in the red.
 
Hillhater said:
It can not become “more acidic”, If it is not acidic to begin with.
You are the one playing word games.

Um no.

Acidity is the measure of hydronium ions H30 (we use mols for convenience since there are a lot of molecules!) in a liter of solution. If you add more it is more acidic. Like if you have 1 H30 and you add another, you have 2 because 1+1=2 and 2>1.

You may be confused because you're thinking of ph, which is the ratio of hydronium (H30) to hydroxide (OH). When the number of hydroxide molecules equals the number of hydronium molecules the ph is 7. This doesn't mean zero, this is a ratio and it means unity or 1:1.

It gets more confusing from here because you need to be able to balance equations. The ratio of hydronium molecules to hydrogen molecules is called pOH. This may seem backwards because "power of hydrogen" or ph is the ratio of H30 to OH, and the "power of hydroxide" pOH is the ratio of H30 to H. It isn't though because we like to think in terms of what we need to get an imbalance in the ratio once they react.
The ph or pOH scales aren't linear either, they're logarithmic, so they increase by factors of 10.

It's all very confusing. All you need to know is CO2 increases the amount of H30 in seawater, making it more acidic.
 
Hillhater said:
Punx0r said:
Methane only persists in the atmosphere for about a decade compared to a couple of centuries for CO2, ...
?? “ a couple of centuries”... really ??
You may want to check that !

This goes back to the ocean. It's absorbed so much you have to remove a molecule from the atmosphere to get one out of the ocean. The physical molecule itself only has a half life of 40 years or something like that, but CO2 wanders around the Earth for quite some time. IPCC says about 100 years.
Again, the molecules are involved in complex processes and can't be represented by pure gases. IPCC has determined a warming potential for gases based on the different cycles they are involved in.
 
Hillhater said:
It can not become “more acidic”, If it is not acidic to begin with.
H+ ions make water more acidic. OH- ions make water more alkaline. Water at a pH of 7 is balanced between the two. If the ratio of H+ to OH- goes up, the mixture becomes more acidic. Even if it started out at a pH of 13. If the ratio of H+ to OH- goes down, the mixture becomes more alkaline. Even if it started out at a pH of 2.

If you go to a hospital, and you have a blood pH of 7.1 (which you would refer to as "alkaline" I imagine) you would be diagnosed with acidosis - because your blood would have become too acidic. That's not doctors playing word games - those would be doctors trying to save your life. Hopefully you would not argue with them, and instead let them do their jobs.

Let's look at this in a more pedestrian application. If it is -20F in your city, and the temperature is going to go up to +5F, then the forecaster will likely say that they are seeing warming. Even if everyone would agree that +5F is still cold.
 
"Im struggling to remember a hybrid with a lithium pack that was available in 1994 ?
Please identify these 25yr old lithium cells ."

oooh, I made a mistake...first gen Prius hybrids used NiMH cells, in 1997...so 23 years old, and a much more picky battery chemistry, with proven shorter lifetimes (got any NiMH cordless tool packs or electric RC car batteries from the 90's still working?) than lithium. Turns out those old cars show battery capacities more like 95% of new, not 85%

Do those errors make my argument any less valid?
 
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