Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

[sendler2112]

"This means not only that substantial degrowth is the only sensible thing to do, but also that it is an inevitable fact. There is no way we can prevent it and postponing it will only mean paying a much bigger price, a little later."

 

[Dauntless]

But that's how you know it works perfectly, because it WOULD be so ideal. It's people like you who keep the world from being perfect, you know.

No.. it is ALL the people in the world that prevents it being perfect or even close to ideal .! :wink:

I should think it was easy enough to catch that was joke.

 

[jonescg]

"This means not only that substantial degrowth is the only sensible thing to do, but also that it is an inevitable fact. There is no way we can prevent it and postponing it will only mean paying a much bigger price, a little later."

I used to think that de-growth was something we should be embracing and enacting in a careful way to restore the balance of our demands and nature's provisions. But this COV-19 situation has brought it all on rather suddenly.

We will get through it, but there will be hardship and maybe at the end of it we'll be a little more compassionate and empathetic.

 

[Dauntless]

hey, take a gander at the Himalaya's from northern India. People are saying "First time in 30 years," but that's just talk. No question it's been a long time since it was this clear.

 

[JackFlorey]

We will get through it, but there will be hardship and maybe at the end of it we'll be a little more compassionate and empathetic.

I would like to think that, but I strongly suspect that once we are past it the emphasis will be "PARTY! Fly everywhere! Save the airlines/tourism industries to save the economy!"

 

[sendler2112]

I would like to think that, but I strongly suspect that once we are past it the emphasis will be "PARTY! Fly everywhere! Save the airlines/tourism industries to save sthe economy!"

At an annual total of 13 Quads, passenger air travel is only 2.4% of world total primary energy consumption. Passenger air flight is extravagant and often unnecessary, but isn't as big a part of the problem or solution as it is made out to be.
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If everyone saves a little, It adds up to ...a little.

 

[sendler2112]

Richard Heinberg: "economic growth was bound to end at some point, with or without the virus. A few moments of critical thought confirm that the exponential expansion of the economy—whose physical processes inevitably entail extracting natural resources and dumping polluting wastes—is destined to reach limits, given the obvious and verifiable fact that we live on a finite planet.

However, we also happen to live in a human social world in which a decades-long spurt of economic and population growth, based on the snowballing exploitation of a finite supply of fossil fuels, has become normalized, so that world leaders have come to agree that growth can and must continue forever. In response to this situation, clear-eyed systems and environmental scientists have, during the past few decades, proposed policies either to transition the global economy away from its near-suicidal requirement for infinite growth, or to cushion the impact when growth limits are finally reached."
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"there are people who have been anticipating a moment like this for decades. If we are willing now to listen and learn from post-growth thinkers, the crisis and its aftermath can be a process of adaptation that leaves us more locally resilient, happier, and more connected.

That’s not to downplay the immensity of the task. Redesigning national economies in the midst of crisis is a challenge perhaps comparable to redesigning an airplane in mid-air, while attempting to make a safe landing. Navigating the end of growth will require courage, new thinking, flexibility, and a willingness to make mistakes. It’s understandable why, during “normal” times, people want to stick with what’s familiar. But we’re no longer in normal times. We are in a moment that requires us to undertake bold changes that have been put off for far too long."
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https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-04-10/pandemic-response-requires-post-growth-economic-thinking/

 

[Hillhater]

^^ some countries may well think that way and attempt new economic theories to suit..
But, i suspect others (China, Russia, etc..) will see an oportunity to gain advantage ,.and power.. at the expense of the weakened international structures.
In reality , i would not be surprised to see some serious Military conflicts developing !

 

[Dauntless]

In reality , i would not be surprised to see some serious Military conflicts developing !

How many wars were the result of less financial chaos than this will be? Dang, World War II for example. Or the 'Soccer War.' Honduras was going to solve all sorts of its' woes by taking land owned by Salvadorans and selling it. That raised tension levels between the two countries up to the moment their two teams met in World Cup Soccer. The fans fought as Honduras won the first game, El Salvador won the second, then El Salvador eliminated Honduras. The next ten days it was rape an pillage in the streets of Honduras, then the invasion began.

Pretty much improvised military on both sides. Honduras sent world war II era Mustangs and Corsairs to escort C-47's used as bombers, El Salvador put more Corsairs in the air to stem the assault. Honduras was turned back and El Salvador pushed across the invaders' border. Like any good bully, Honduras then went pleading for protection, this time from the Organization of American States. The victims didn't get their property back, the dead didn't come back to life, but at least Honduras got to act as though nothing was wrong. . . .

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/11/positively-alpine-disbelief-air-pollution-falls-lockdown-coronavirus

 

[Hillhater]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but i could not find it in a search, and dont recall seeing it either.
A rational review of the situation and the Contribution of Solar, Wind and Biomass energy.
[youtube]Zk11vI-7czE[/youtube]

 

[sendler2112]

Richard Heinberg:"We’re perfectly capable of increasing our happiness without piling on more environmental harms. Tired old promises about green growth won’t get us there. What we need instead is a collective change of heart and mind that leads to fundamental shifts in institutions and norms, prioritizing well-being and life satisfaction over ever-more consumption—just as we’re prioritizing health over economic activity by quarantining ourselves during the pandemic. The fact that we’ve put off that shift for 50 years doesn’t mean we have to continue doing so. Maybe the pandemic, along with the resulting temporary shuttering of travel and commerce, is an opportunity to rethink and reboot both our individual lives and our collective ways of being on this precious planet. That would make this Earth Day a truly meaningful occasion."
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https://www.postcarbon.org/earth-day-50-under-lockdown/

 

[TheBeastie]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but i could not find it in a search, and dont recall seeing it either.
A rational review of the situation and the Contribution of Solar, Wind and Biomass energy.
https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE?t=3151

Yeah it's a great documentary, I think Michael Moore making this film is surprising everyone on either side of the political spectrum.

To me they could of gone harder on the dirtyness of wind/solar manufacturing, but it was good how they went after Biomass which is simply a horrible "Renewable energy" and is by far the most "USED" energy as far as I am concerned.
https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE?t=3151

When you have an renewable energy like Biomass that can provide energy 24/7 and ON-demand then it's by far the most secretly loved and used by the renewables energy, there are just so many stories about how wind energy gets "dumped" in other states/countries or even paid for other states to take the energy because it comes in and out in abrupt surges that just isn't useful.

Just looking at Electricitymaps today you can see biomass was being used about x4 TIMES MORE than their massive wind/solar farms in Germany which has argubly the poster-child of biggest setup of wind/solar/biomass renewables.

5.5GW of Biomass currently being generated at this point in time today in Germany compared with 1.3GW of wind.

The data has always been there but people just don't look at it, they just trust spectrum privileged broadcast media and billionaire politicians like Al Gore and Michael Bloomberg rather then bothering to just look at the real-world data/stats them selves.
https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE?t=4257
^Here is Michael Bloomberg one of the richest people in the world, and he just loves biomass.

Never gets old, right now for South Australia, with its biggest lithium-ion battery in the world and a ton of wind farms with just 1.6million people is emitting 19x times MORE #CO2 than nuclear France with 67million people!

If we were comparing these two states energy-tech as like cars emissions/performance then it would be considered a JOKE at almost 20 times more CO2! *ANY* car that could be sold today that had a total emissions lifecycle of 19 times more CO2 would simply be made illegal to sell, but the broadcast-media has so much brainwashing power that people can be made to believe the "renewables car" emitting 19 times more CO2 is better than anything else.

But here we are, people are just brainwashed via constant broadcast media rubbish but they just don't see it.

I noticed the most "thumbed up :thumb:" Youtube comment on Michael Moore's "Planet of the Humans" documentary was this one! -> It’s easier to fool the masses than to convince them that they are being fooled. -Mark Twain
I think it fits nicely with my brainwashed via "broadcast media rubbish" belief.

 

[Dauntless]

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/we-are-moving-end-game-27-tankers-anchored-california-hundreds-singapore-oil-industry-shuts

 

[ZeroEm]

Looks like it's not the Coal just the Gasoline. Ok I vote to keep the coal plants and crush all the ICE machines.

 

[sendler2112]

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/we-are-moving-end-game-27-tankers-anchored-california-hundreds-singapore-oil-industry-shuts

Now we get a taste of what life will be without oil. Either by decision or depletion. No economy-no use for oil, no oil-no economy. Same thing. Each are highly correlated to the other. Eventually we will also see what happens to the economy (social surplus) when faced with the limits of credit, Modern Monetary Theory, and spending new money into existence, that has kept growth going beyond the bounds of tethers to physical resources. Wealthy people will have less. Poor people will have nothing. Unless we come up with a whole new way of organizing society.

 

[ZeroEm]

The sad thing, oil is linked to everything, even food. The withdraws are going to be bad.

 

[Hillhater]

Excitement in europe as they see Renewables providing 34% of Electricity supply in 2019
https://ember-climate.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Sandbag-European-Power-Sector-Review-2019.pdf
BUT .. if you exclude “biomass” burning as a “Faux” RE source,..and just look at the actual Wind and Solar the picture is somewhat different at 17.5%
And of course, that is not 17.5% for 100% of the time,...it more likely 35% of the power for 50% of the year :lol:
... but obviously a much more erratic and unpredictable supply than that.!

It is also worth remembering that Germany alone has enough installed Wind and Solar capacity to provide MORE than that EU total....if only those things worked more effectively !

 

[Dauntless]

You shouldn'ta oughtn'ta said all that. Now the minions of Joshua Fox are gonna troll ya.

But I'm watching one of my all time favorite movies no matter how many times I've seen it, the West Coast is getting 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' on CBS right now. The troll/monkey already got his.

 

[JackFlorey]

Now we get a taste of what life will be without oil. Either by decision or depletion. No economy-no use for oil, no oil-no economy.

If this is "life without oil" then it's not bad at all. If our future really is telecommuting, a contraction of the economy, no air travel and no restaurants - that's a very livable future.

However, what we are doing now is nothing like "life without oil." We have reduced our use of aviation fuel and gasoline - and that's it. We are still shipping goods with diesel and bunker fuel. We are still making plastics from petroleum. Our demand is down only 20%, not 90%.

If anything, this period shows that we don't need as much oil as we thought, and that means that the oil we have can last longer than we thought it could. And that at the least a life without cheap gasoline and JP-4 isn't that bad.

 

[Hillhater]

Remote working may be feasible for some “service” businesses,..IT, Finance, Insurance, etc,....but you cannot have much of a manufacturing economy without transportation and commuter travel.
Even “Mr 22nd century” Musk needs several thousand workers to travel to his latest, automated, manufacturing sites. Civil works , and construction are also hard to do remotely, as is most Agriculture, fruit and veg harvesting etc etc.
One thing this shutdown of our economies has proven though....
.... without all the air travel, car usage, industry operation, etc...most agree the atmospheric pollution is visually noticeably improved, but the data shows that CO2 levels are continuing to climb unabated

 

[sendler2112]

Now we get a taste of what life will be without oil. Either by decision or depletion. No economy-no use for oil, no oil-no economy.

If this is "life without oil" then it's not bad at all. If our future really is telecommuting, a contraction of the economy, no air travel and no restaurants - that's a very livable future.

However, what we are doing now is nothing like "life without oil." We have reduced our use of aviation fuel and gasoline - and that's it. We are still shipping goods with diesel and bunker fuel. We are still making plastics from petroleum. Our demand is down only 20%, not 90%.

If anything, this period shows that we don't need as much oil as we thought, and that means that the oil we have can last longer than we thought it could. And that at the least a life without cheap gasoline and JP-4 isn't that bad.

Exactly. This isn't life without oil. Yet. That will be a life that is much smaller and simpler than most leaders have any scope or foundation to imagine. Right now is life with a 20% reduction in fossil Carbon energy. We still have plenty of Carbon assisted factory farmed food and trucks and transport ships to bring it everywhere. Just no functional market system to share it throughout all of the (inequitable) levels of societies without unfinanced Modern Monetary Theory issuing new debt to dispense it.

 

[sendler2112]

Excitement in europe as they see Renewables providing 34% of Electricity supply in 2019
https://ember-climate.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Sandbag-European-Power-Sector-Review-2019.pdf
BUT .. if you exclude “biomass” burning as a “Faux” RE source,..and just look at the actual Wind and Solar the picture is somewhat different at 17.5%
And of course, that is not 17.5% for 100% of the time,...it more likely 35% of the power for 50% of the year :lol:
... but obviously a much more erratic and unpredictable supply than that.!

It is also worth remembering that Germany alone has enough installed Wind and Solar capacity to provide MORE than that EU total....if only those things worked more effectively !

Yeah. And these reports are again conflating total ELECTRICITY with total primary energy. Which electricity is only around 20% of total energy in most areas of the world. Germany's wind and solar share of total primary energy are only about 4.6%
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.

 

[JackFlorey]

Just no functional market system to share it throughout all of the (inequitable) levels of societies without unfinanced Modern Monetary Theory issuing new debt to dispense it.

Fun fact - Trump is now pushing negative interest rates, a financial policy that effectively drives people/companies to abandon savings and operate entirely on debt.

 

[jonescg]

I'll just throw this burley in the water shall I?

https://asianrehub.com/




My thoughts - bold, ambitious, and probably rather a bit too large. While they get fairly consistant wind, it's never very strong, until a cyclone barrels through. Interesting that the generation of hydrogen is their primary goal. Hydrogen doesn't store well, so presumably they have plans to turn it into ammonia and export that. Or run fuel cells... but that's just crazy. Undersea cable to Indonesia is probably only going to be good for 5 GW.