improving MXUS 3000 V2

[teslanv]

Ran 10Kw yesterday on a MXUS 3T. Stock everything, except I upgraded the phase wires once outside the axle to 8 AWG.
58 MPH on 117V and 100A battery/250A phase.

 

[John in CR]

Mark,

I wasn't referring to any motors. I just find Rix use of superlatives quite funny. The other day some Xlyte motor had the best build quality he's seen. Now Doc's changes that apparently Rix thinks MXUS will do for free, none of which will change performance unless you count less heat in the now undersized wires, give it the best price/performance ratio available.

I'm not going to knock Teslanv, because he's made another scooter hubbie with ebike covers and axle available for a better price than the Cromotor, which has unnecessary extra layers of shipping and profit.


Rix,

I take issue with the fanboy club thing that happens on ES, because I see it reduces diversity and discovery of new products. There are many hundreds of companies making hubmotors, and my experience has been that those produced for export are typically lower quality and higher price. Finding what you ask would be a simple matter, but I grew out of that performance range years ago, otherwise I could turn you on to some specific motors.

 

[Doctorbass]

Mark,

I wasn't referring to any motors. I just find Rix use of superlatives quite funny. The other day some Xlyte motor had the best build quality he's seen. Now Doc's changes that apparently Rix thinks MXUS will do for free, none of which will change performance unless you count less heat in the now undersized wires, give it the best price/performance ratio available.

I'm not going to knock Teslanv, because he's made another scooter hubbie with ebike covers and axle available for a better price than the Cromotor, which has unnecessary extra layers of shipping and profit.


Rix,

I take issue with the fanboy club thing that happens on ES, because I see it reduces diversity and discovery of new products. There are many hundreds of companies making hubmotors, and my experience has been that those produced for export are typically lower quality and higher price. Finding what you ask would be a simple matter, but I grew out of that performance range years ago, otherwise I could turn you on to some specific motors.

John, I did not changed my mind.. the C-Lyte stator are better assembly quality than the MXUS from my experience. But MXUS are better efficiency and better lamination and larger stator surface.

Doc

 

[Samd]

Not keen to get thicker axles, I want to keep my 12t rear freewheels with ~0.4mm to spare to fit them currently.
Twin halls = good.
I still think ~ 80v 80a is ok with the current phases.
I'm wondering what 0.1mm lams would get us....

Let the 8-10 kw hotrodders buy in an axle or a whole crown IMHO.

 

[Rix]

Mark,

I wasn't referring to any motors. I just find Rix use of superlatives quite funny. The other day some Xlyte motor had the best build quality he's seen. Now Doc's changes that apparently Rix thinks MXUS will do for free, none of which will change performance unless you count less heat in the now undersized wires, give it the best price/performance ratio available.

I'm not going to knock Teslanv, because he's made another scooter hubbie with ebike covers and axle available for a better price than the Cromotor, which has unnecessary extra layers of shipping and profit.


Rix,

I take issue with the fanboy club thing that happens on ES, because I see it reduces diversity and discovery of new products. There are many hundreds of companies making hubmotors, and my experience has been that those produced for export are typically lower quality and higher price. Finding what you ask would be a simple matter, but I grew out of that performance range years ago, otherwise I could turn you on to some specific motors.

John, I get that my superlatives can be funny. Sometimes that happens when I don't clarify my statements, or I am mistaken in my comments. I don't know nearly as much knowledge as you, or Doc Bass, and others. I don't claim to be smarter. But here is what I can tell first hand. I have ordered 70-80 motors and sold them over the last few years. When dealing with Chinese manufactures, I learned a couple of things. Here is one example. Dealing with Crystalyte, when I was wheeling and dealing 54xx motors, I get them at cost. If I ordered those same motors with bigger 11g phase wires, NSK bearings, high temp glue, and upgraded axles, all that crap only added 35-40 bucks USD on to the total cost of the motor. So, moving on to the MXUS and Doc Bass suggested up grades to them. If MXUS mods their motors with larger PTFE Phase wires, larger axle, better bearings, better glue on the magnets, wind the stators tighter, and double up on the Halls sensors, they can do this for less than $45 USD increase per motor. There is no doubt in my mind that if MXUS offers this upgraded motor, it will sell. And when word gets out that a sub 300 dollar MXUS motor is more durable, last longer, and performs as well as much more costly motors, then 2 things will happen. First, MXUS will sell more motors than they already do, second, other manufactures will be forced to step up and off there more expensive higher quality motors for the same price. Win win for the end user. I am going to pm you, sounds like to me you got a line on better hub motors than what I have seen on ES threads, I want to know whats going on.

 

[macribs]

Not keen to get thicker axles, I want to keep my 12t rear sprockets with ~0.4mm to spare currently.
Twin halls = good.
I still think ~ 80v 80a is ok with the current phases.
I'm wondering what 0.1mm lams would get us....

Let the 8-10 kw hotrodders buy in an axle or a whole crown IMHO.

This could be easily solved by doing two versions of the same motor. One stock with minor upgrades, and one hot rod version with all upgrades Doctorbase mentioned. That way the power hungry would get their needs met and the one looking for less power and lower price can still get premium quality motor but at a better price then the "hot rod" version. I know regen alone would for me enough to go for the "hot rod" version with thicker axle - maybe overkill but sure would feel safer and I get extra room for wires as well.

Edited: If the added cost would be <45-50$ for all upgrades like Rix said me personally would not even think twice about what motor to choose. The "hot rod" model would win every time. Heck that beefier axle might even allow for a water in/outlet.......

 

[markz]

Ran 10Kw yesterday on a MXUS 3T. Stock everything, except I upgraded the phase wires once outside the axle to 8 AWG.
58 MPH on 117V and 100A battery/250A phase.

What controller you got teslanv?
The Adaptto? if so thats a sweet piece, pricey but sweet!
Was that 10k continuous? 58MPH is wowsers to me, just bonkers. Thats 100km/h, I've never gone that fast on a bicycle, never. Will never.
I need to know tes, where did you ride 60MPH and for how long?
I'm amazed, congrats man, congrats!


John in CR, gotcha, I understand what you were saying now.

 

[Allex]

Adaptto won't do 117V and no hubmotor in 10kg category would do 10kW cont.

 

[Samd]

Macribs, that's getting naive. Hysteresis and saturation is going to prevent any 10kg motor doing 10kw. You can cool it with nuclear nitrogen for all i care.
The problem with these sorts of threads is I start getting request to upgrade from kids who want a 4kilowatt motor because the doubt is already cast.
They spend all day farting about in workshops with unecessary mods instead of riding a great and inexpensive ebike.

Load up the ebikes.ca curve and notice how the power/efficiency curve sharply drops on the far right of the curve. For a well known and predictable reason.


Just pull the thing out of the box and enjoy it.

Want a 10kw continuous motor, buy an appropriately sized motor and move on.

 

[Allex]

lol samd, it it like on a computer forum, peeps just do benchmarks all day long and over clock instead of enjoy playing the god damn games

 

[macribs]

lol samd, it it like on a computer forum, peeps just do benchmarks all day long and over clock instead of enjoy playing the god damn games

And like many computer nerds know, over clocking, tweaking and benchmarking is even more fun then playing games. I remember in the early days of SSD, before GC and better cell algorithm bunch of us spend hours upon hours finding the ultimate setup in raid 0, using dedicated controller card sometimes even more costly then the SSD. Nerds are often what drives R & D forward. All this thinker gave us great stability, let us gather new knowledge and I am sure even made manufacturer push forward to meet demands from nerds and lunatics. It was considered insane to use SSD raid in production work stations - today it is mainstream.

Macribs, that's getting naive. Hysteresis and saturation is going to prevent any 10kg motor doing 10kw. You can cool it with nuclear nitrogen for all i care.
The problem with these sorts of threads is I start getting request to upgrade from kids who want a 4kilowatt motor because the doubt is already cast.
They spend all day farting about in workshops with unecessary mods instead of riding a great and inexpensive ebike.

Load up the ebikes.ca curve and notice how the power/efficiency curve sharply drops on the far right of the curve. For a well known and predictable reason.


Just pull the thing out of the box and enjoy it.

Want a 10kw continuous motor, buy an appropriately sized motor and move on.

@Samd no it is not naive to pull 10 kw+ from these motors. Enjoying a powerful e-bike is not about getting a heavy anchor of a double wide hub motor close to 50 lbs in the rear wheel. Because that would be overkill, to heavy and the weight would severely impact the handling of the bike in the most negative way.

What it is about is maximum output within the limitations of the motor/stator/magnets - max out put in few seconds (<10-12 seconds) over and over again. These motors mxus 3000/QS 205/Cro is already hitting the max load (practical weight limit) or getting dang close for what is doable for a Hub motor and still have usability, and OK handling.

And stronger axles is just common sense - both for extra thick wires and riders safety when using regen on max. Several people have had axle failures on various hub motors.So far I don't think mxus owners are among those but with heavy use, heavy rider and heavy regen I would be surprised if we don't see any axle failures.

The good thing when talking about mods is that most of what has been discussed is universal mods that will work for most motors. So that is why I keep reading these threads, and keep posting.

Until someone knocks off good ol Georg Ohm's legacy, maximum acceleration over and over again in the same run will only be doable with extraordinary measures for cooling. At least in my weight class. :lol:

Btw samd, I've seen several posts of you where you state that all these modding threads make customers ask for upgrades. If your customers ask for more - give it to them. Bill em by the hours and spend more time doing mods and less time worrying about what you think the customer needs. I am sure they are all grown ups and can make their own decisions.

 

[madin88]

i'm totally with you macribs. nicely said

@ John

what you are out for? yes everyone knows the Hubmonster does have better efficiency and yes it is more powerful.
but honestly, if i want to have a more powerful motor i would use such heavy beast or the new QS V3 extra, but i do not want to deal with the large weight especially for use in ebikes.
so tell me when do you call a hubmotor poor and when is it good?
i would say it is good if it has great performance per weight and at the moment MXUS is ahead of most others. if we change bearings, phase wires and seal it up we will have a great motor as a whole.
IMO power and efficiency is not the problem, it is the weight and emission of heat. Hubmotors could be build much more lightweight if manufacturer would make more from aluminum or other lightweight materials, more shape stability of stressed parts etc, but they don't do this to keep costs low.

I do not see a fanboy club here, and many looking for other motors, trying them out and compare them with each other. thats what is so great here in ES.
if you say it is a simple matter to find better motors (at least i had understood this way), why not give us a tip?

 

[teslanv]

Sabvoton SSC096150 controller.
28S LiPo
1/4-mile drag, so NOT continuous. Only about 20 seconds actually.

The controller was warmer than the motor.

 

[DasDouble]

Macribs, that's getting naive. Hysteresis and saturation is going to prevent any 10kg motor doing 10kw. You can cool it with nuclear nitrogen for all i care.
The problem with these sorts of threads is I start getting request to upgrade from kids who want a 4kilowatt motor because the doubt is already cast.
They spend all day farting about in workshops with unecessary mods instead of riding a great and inexpensive ebike.

Load up the ebikes.ca curve and notice how the power/efficiency curve sharply drops on the far right of the curve. For a well known and predictable reason.


Just pull the thing out of the box and enjoy it.

Want a 10kw continuous motor, buy an appropriately sized motor and move on.

Hahahahaha I think I am one of these kids . Im 17 years old, have a 250 Watt Bosch Pedelec and its just tooooooo slow^^ So I want to go with the Vector frame and build my own 4kW E-Bike wish me luck haha

-Elias

 

[markz]

You could have saved yourself the money on the 250 watt, and jumped straight into 4kw+

 

[Samd]

You could have saved yourself the money on the 250 watt, and jumped straight into 4kw+

Indeed.
Unmodified too.

As a degree qualified Mech/Elec Engineer I don't think you are getting what I am saying about hysteresis and saturating motors with flux Macribs.
And even without my formal qualification, I frankly gotta confess as a twelve year veteran of building and exporting ebikes the last thing I want is a lecture on ebikes from a guy who doesn't own one.

There are valid reasons for not increasing the axle diameter whether the inexperienced people want it or not - and I am not willing to gouge them on a profit for that. That's unethical. Many stealth users buy my mxus motors to fit a 12 tooth rear because the stock axle is too fat. I believe I do understand the customer, I just sold my 70th mxus.

A ten kg motor literally cannot generate 10kw for a useful period of time. I don't know how else to explain it politely in laymans terms so I am going to let the chart do the talking. Refer the right hand end.
Please stop telling people to drive off the efficiency cliff.


I've sat through a decade of hotrodding motors to get what we collectively wanted - and along comes an inexpensive version that handles 8kw peaks out of the box. But in typical self-doubt style most people want to know if they have to open it up and tinker with it.

Let's give them guilt free riding.

 

[macribs]

@samd I will look past your personal insult attempt. Bad hair day?

Well do you think Boyd, West side custom or other famous custom builder is unethical? Surely their customers does not NEED all that power, the leather from 25 cows or a fine tuned HEMI with extra aspiration or even a custom paint job. But wild custom cars, motor cycles and boats gets build every day. Because people want more. Something nice that is not main stream. Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

Maybe we all should drive Nissan's or KIA so people who don't have a "real car" don't get all wind up? Why stop there. Let's all downsize our entire life and lifestyle because not all are equal.

I am not claiming 10+ kw is for everybody - but I will damn well write whatever I please about the subject without personal attacks.If you got nothing to say - maybe keep it that way in the future?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Wow Sam, this is the second time I've seen you spruiking yourself due to your qualifications and experience.

I respect that you might have a degree, and all that experience, but in all honesty all it seems to have taught you is how to...

You won't succeed in life if you just accept that everyone else knows better or has tried and tested every option before. Learning by trying and pushing the boundaries is how most discoveries and inventions are made. I can see plenty of E-S users (including myself) taking this approach, and while there are plenty of failures...there are also a number of successful outcomes.

You would do well to show support instead of ridicule to those who are trying to push the boundaries of what is possible.

Cheers

 

[Doctorbass]

A ten kg motor literally cannot generate 10kw for a useful period of time. I don't know how else to explain it politely in laymans terms so I am going to let the chart do the talking. Refer the right hand end.
Please stop telling people to drive off the efficiency cliff.


I've sat through a decade of hotrodding motors to get what we collectively wanted - and along comes an inexpensive version that handles 8kw peaks out of the box. But in typical self-doubt style most people want to know if they have to open it up and tinker with it.

Let's give them guilt free riding.

If the motor is on the sweet spot of efficiency yes it can take 10kW of power input.

i've been able to even with a simple 5303 with 32mm stator 4 years ago and motor remained stable to 121 degree C during few km at over 100km/h.

Now here is why: MXUS eff is about 85% at full load so at 10kW it's 1.5kW heat.

if the motor run 10kW at the sweet spot it meen it run pretty fast! so fast mean wind.. and wind mean better cooling.

Here are the conditions where a mxus motor can certainly take 10kW:

- 3T
- cooling holes on the motor
- running at 60mph+
- 98V batt
-26" wheel

motor load 10kW
motor power out 8500W
heat generated: 1.5kW.

The ebike simulator calculate overheat in 4.1 minutes.. .. yes.. that's without cooling holes! and no air flow.. Justin calculated these motor on a dyno without cooling holes.

The simulator calculate that the motor NEVER overheat if heat generated is about 500W according to the graph at various speed.

now put a wind of 100km/h in on a motor that generate 1.5kW of heat with holes .... you will see that it cool alot more than a sealed motor. :wink:

now that excess of 1kW of heat to dissipate can easy be extracted by the air cooling... :wink:

But.. you will agree with me that running 10kW continuous at 60mph is difficult to acheive!! so..... ....

Doc

 

[teslanv]

Wow Sam, this is the second time I've seen you spruiking yourself due to your qualifications and experience.

I respect that you might have a degree, and all that experience, but in all honesty all it seems to have taught you is how to...

You won't succeed in life if you just accept that everyone else knows better or has tried and tested every option before. Learning by trying and pushing the boundaries is how most discoveries and inventions are made. I can see plenty of E-S users (including myself) taking this approach, and while there are plenty of failures...there are also a number of successful outcomes.

You would do well to show support instead of ridicule to those who are trying to push the boundaries of what is possible.

Cheers

The main issue I have (and I assume Sam does as well) is that the discussion of all these mods and improvements will lead the general public to assume that these motors need to be modified to provide a satisfying experience. And when a customer tries unsuccessfully to modify their motor, and it doesn't work as they expected it to, they come crying to us to help them fix the problem or provide some kind of warranty service.
I get the urge to want to tweak things. Make it look cool. Make it go faster for longer. Make something more from something less with your own ingenuity. I have that desire as well.
But I also like to ride my creations, and I like simplicity.
These MXUS motors provide a simple cheap solution for a good performing ebike motor without any major modifications.

50mph bursts and 40 MPH continuous speeds are certainly achievable from a stock 3T or 4T motor, so long as they are matched with an appropriate tire diameter, battery voltage and controller.

 

[Doctorbass]

Wow Sam, this is the second time I've seen you spruiking yourself due to your qualifications and experience.

I respect that you might have a degree, and all that experience, but in all honesty all it seems to have taught you is how to...

You won't succeed in life if you just accept that everyone else knows better or has tried and tested every option before. Learning by trying and pushing the boundaries is how most discoveries and inventions are made. I can see plenty of E-S users (including myself) taking this approach, and while there are plenty of failures...there are also a number of successful outcomes.

You would do well to show support instead of ridicule to those who are trying to push the boundaries of what is possible.

Cheers

The main issue I have (and I assume Sam does as well) is that the discussion of all these mods and improvements will lead the general public to assume that these motors need to be modified to provide a satisfying experience. And when a customer tries unsuccessfully to modify their motor, and it doesn't work as they expected it to, they come crying to us to help them fix the problem or provide some kind of warranty service.
I get the urge to want to tweak things. Make it look cool. Make it go faster for longer. Make something more from something less with your own ingenuity. I have that desire as well.
But I also like to ride my creations, and I like simplicity.
These MXUS motors provide a simple cheap solution for a good performing ebike motor without any major modifications.

50mph bursts and 40 MPH continuous speeds are certainly achievable from a stock 3T or 4T motor, so long as they are matched with an appropriate tire diameter, battery voltage and controller.

You are totally right Barent.

 

[macribs]

Wow Sam, this is the second time I've seen you spruiking yourself due to your qualifications and experience.

I respect that you might have a degree, and all that experience, but in all honesty all it seems to have taught you is how to...

You won't succeed in life if you just accept that everyone else knows better or has tried and tested every option before. Learning by trying and pushing the boundaries is how most discoveries and inventions are made. I can see plenty of E-S users (including myself) taking this approach, and while there are plenty of failures...there are also a number of successful outcomes.

You would do well to show support instead of ridicule to those who are trying to push the boundaries of what is possible.

Cheers

The main issue I have (and I assume Sam does as well) is that the discussion of all these mods and improvements will lead the general public to assume that these motors need to be modified to provide a satisfying experience. And when a customer tries unsuccessfully to modify their motor, and it doesn't work as they expected it to, they come crying to us to help them fix the problem or provide some kind of warranty service.
I get the urge to want to tweak things. Make it look cool. Make it go faster for longer. Make something more from something less with your own ingenuity. I have that desire as well.
But I also like to ride my creations, and I like simplicity.
These MXUS motors provide a simple cheap solution for a good performing ebike motor without any major modifications.

50mph bursts and 40 MPH continuous speeds are certainly achievable from a stock 3T or 4T motor, so long as they are matched with an appropriate tire diameter, battery voltage and controller.

I don't buy that at all. This thread is about improving a hub motor, the mxus 3K. But what has been discussed is not solely for the mxus motor - we can learn by trail and error from this thread for various motors. But does that mean we provide too much information so that people can not make sane choices? Not at all the way I see it. For almost every car made there is an enthusiast forum, where people tweek, tune and style to make their ride stand out. Do their time spend in their shop make every Ford Focus owner crave a turbo charger, better brakes or carbon fiber bonnet? No because most people will see those forums and threads for what they are - a place where people modify for their own pleasure first and foremost. It does not mean average joe will start asking his local Ford dealer for custom parts - and if it in some cases it does should not the Ford dealer help out his customer?

Yes stock parts work well for the majority and we could all ride stock motors and have a plain paint job. But life is so much more. You crave simplicity other crave maximum power with some degree of longevity. So people tweak.

If one of your customers frock up his ride on his own - you should be happy if he comes knocking on your door. Bill him for the work done and both you and your customer is happy. If one screws up one can not expect to be cured for free. Not even in the e-bike world.

If you think customers are not smart enough to make their own choice sell them over the counter street legal Bosch bikes and be done with it. 250 watt, 6 km/h PAS and 25 km/h top speed. That bosch motor will last forever. Not much fun to ride but totally by the book and no need to feel that you have exploited your customers.

 

[Samd]

Lets see if I can explain this easier macribs.

An 8kw mxus is almost the same as a 10kw mxus.
At 10 kw you are making 1.5kw of heat. Theres almost no more kinetic energy coming out the back of the bike.

I don't need to think. What bullshit.This isn't empirical witchcraft. This is undergrad basic theory.

Want a motor that can actually make 10kw of kinetic energy? Cant be done in a 10kilo motor.
Removing the heat wont create kinetic energy

Its frocking *saturated*

All the work has been done for me by great scientists gone before.

Stop telling me i am grumpy and accept the science.

 

[Samd]

And cowardly duck, ffs. I have have to point out again I have a degree to get you to listen to science, its because you are trying to find an empirical solution to an already known science, please dont tell me to think. Listen to me. Please.

You are columbusing - discovering something that is already there. We know all there is to know about the parameters of ac machines.

Grab a book on ac machines. Read the wikipedia entry on saturation. Think through that.


Someone else above tried to point out to john that maybe new materials would make better hub motors. They can't because the copper is fully saturated!

 

[madin88]

Samd,
regarding the pic from the simulator: what you mean with "stop telling people to go here"?
you simply cannot go there - only if you ride down a very steep hill at full throttle going as fast or even more fast as motors no-load rpm. than you will be in this area and efficiency will be zero (with Adaptto i even have seen negative amps so regen if i apply throttle )

I don't need to think. What bullshit.This isn't empirical witchcraft. This is undergrad basic theory.

Want a motor that can actually make 10kw of kinetic energy? Cant be done in a 10kilo motor.
Removing the heat wont create kinetic energy

Its frocking *saturated*

All the work has been done for me by great scientists gone before.

Stop telling me i am grumpy and accept the science.

do you know how many ERPM you can spin MXUS with its 0,33mm lams before it saturates from eddy losses? We are far away from this point!
so no saturation here.
magnetism saturation or saturation because of to high torque:
this depends on phase amps and i think even DOC with its 26" wheels is below the saturation point once the bike reached topspeed no more accelerating.
if he would use a smaller wheel and higher volts, he would have even more efficiency and it would take much longer before it overheats.
This motor can take such high power if it is laced in very small wheel and if phase amps set properly (not 400A lol)