The new Qute Q100H motor

[d8veh]

There's no exact answer. It depends a lot how you use it. A few guys tried it with the KU93 controller at 22 amps, and nearly always they didn't get far.

 

[Solcar]

Hi, would be intereating to hear of any experience from the new Qute Q100H Black 350W motor, 201 rpm version. Does it really provide 30% more torque than the Q100 as stated by BMS. Does it have the same dimension as Q100?.

I've only done high school physics, but something seems "off" to me. Given that the original motor is 350w, and this motor is 350w, the only way they can raise torque 30% is by reducing speed 30%.

They could have done this with the reduction gears or a different winding, but either way, without an increase in power, you have to give something up to get the extra torque. If they did it using gears, and especially stronger gears, then the whole system can be more efficient and stronger, and this would be a great upgrade, but just plain saying 30% extra torque without explaining how sounds like marketing fluff to me.

A way to increase the torque while keeping everything else the same is by increasing the strength of the magnetic fields from the permanent magnets.

 

[Sunder]

A way to increase the torque while keeping everything else the same is by increasing the strength of the magnetic fields from the permanent magnets.

I have no problem with that, but it doesn't answer the question. The formula for power is:

P = \tau \times 2 \pi \times \omega (apologies for bad formatting)

If you double the torque, all else being equal, you double the power. But the power has stayed the same. So in order to increase the torque 30% as claimed, you need to reduce the rpm by 30%- which hasn't happened.

Understanding a bit more these days, I now know that the correct answer is that the 350w claim has nothing to do with power delivered to the ground, but to do with thermal equilibrium. In theory, at 25*C, no wind, the motor would reach a stable temperature at 350w input, but would get warmer at 351w. (of course by the laws of thermo dynamics, it would just reach a higher equilibrium, but testing methodology says if it gains more than 2*c per hour, it's not at equilibrium)

What this means in practice, is that the motor *is* more powerful, but if you use that power, the motor overheats faster.

 

[Solcar]

A way to increase the torque while keeping everything else the same is by increasing the strength of the magnetic fields from the permanent magnets.

I have no problem with that, but it doesn't answer the question. The formula for power is:

P = \tau \times 2 \pi \times \omega (apologies for bad formatting)

If you double the torque, all else being equal, you double the power. But the power has stayed the same. So in order to increase the torque 30% as claimed, you need to reduce the rpm by 30%- which hasn't happened.

Understanding a bit more these days, I now know that the correct answer is that the 350w claim has nothing to do with power delivered to the ground, but to do with thermal equilibrium. In theory, at 25*C, no wind, the motor would reach a stable temperature at 350w input, but would get warmer at 351w. (of course by the laws of thermo dynamics, it would just reach a higher equilibrium, but testing methodology says if it gains more than 2*c per hour, it's not at equilibrium)

What this means in practice, is that the motor *is* more powerful, but if you use that power, the motor overheats faster.

Yeah sounds like they just lowered the winding resistance, hopefully not just by shortening the winding and using the same wire gauge as in the 250w version. At least want to use thicker wire and still fill the whole winding slot.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Does anyone have any excellent pictures taken of just the Q100h? I am especially interested in the axle where the wires come out. Is there a notch in the axle so the wires can bend downward, preventing wire damage if the bike should be laid on it side?

 

[Sunder]

Does anyone have any excellent pictures taken of just the Q100h? I am especially interested in the axle where the wires come out. Is there a notch in the axle so the wires can bend downward, preventing wire damage if the bike should be laid on it side?

I don't have a photo, but yes there is a notch. There is also a "spring guard". to stop the bending from damaging the wires.

 

[EV_Ron]

Bowlofsalad, my dear PM'ing friend, :wink:

I like this idea by zombiess to protect wires out of the axle:
9C axle mod to prevent cut wires after upgrading phase wires
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34442&hilit=protect+hub+wire+exit

And this C-device is excellent, too.
I already made 2, one of heavy 3/16's-1/4" diamond plate aluminum and one in 1/8" steel. Easy with a vice.

On ypedal.com, there are good views on his ezee build webpage (Gaston Daigle- think he's an E-S members). Just PdDn 3-4 times.
http://ypedal.com/ezee.htm

And on his eVox build , PdDn twice
http://ypedal.com/eVox/index.htm

 

[spinningmagnets]

Just recieved this info on Q100H from ES member Bowl of Salad:

If I understand correctly, I measured the diameter of the rotor at 54.6mm and the diameter of the stator at 89mm.

I counted 18 stator teeth, I wasn't sure if you'd find that information useful or not.

I measured the magnets at 21mm x 8mm and counted 16 of them. I have been trying to get a portion of the motor off of the stator but I have been unsuccessful so far. I might be able to measure the stator teeth width with a different technique, do you have any suggestions? In one way, the stator teeth were measured 7mm with a space between them of 2.4mm.

Here are some useful pics of the Q100:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50840

 

[bowlofsalad]

I don't know if anyone would find the stator teeth measurement useful or not, I could try and get that if they would. I attempted to measure it with a straight measuring ruler, but I am skeptical as to how accurate I made the measurement.

Something I found interesting relates to a little magnet I found on the inside of the shell. I am guessing it's function relates to measuring the RPM of the motor. There is a little sensor that is of similar size and shape of the halls sensors on the other side of the PCB that holds this unknown sensor, my guess is that measures the magnets RPM.

I wonder if around that PCB would be a decent place to install a temperature sensor. The axle seems pretty stuffed, I am not really sure how I am going to get the temperature sensor wires through the axle.

Taking apart this motor has been a really interesting experience. Sadly though, I think I damaged this one. Oh well, at least now I have spare gears and such of this motor. The grease that comes in motor reminds me of petroleum jelly or vaseline.

 

[martx007]

Treated myself to an LSW-675 controller and kingmeter for my q100h. Installed and tried it but something wasn't quite right. It turned the wheel slowly at first with the throttle then burst into life. Twisting the throttle again and the screen would go out and had to switch battery on and off.
Emailed BMS for confirmation of compatibility and they duly replied with what I feared..

Should have checked first
Back to the KU65!

 

[Sunder]

Treated myself to an LSW-675 controller and kingmeter for my q100h. Installed and tried it but something wasn't quite right. It turned the wheel slowly at first with the throttle then burst into life. Twisting the throttle again and the screen would go out and had to switch battery on and off.
Emailed BMS for confirmation of compatibility and they duly replied with what I feared..

Should have checked first
Back to the KU65!

Doesn't quite make sense to me.

The only reason it might be okay on a Q100 but not a Q100h is because of the speed of the inputs back from the halls, which could possibly describe what you're seeing with the slow start up - but their email doesn't refer to that, it only lists the power of the controller and motor?

Weird.

 

[chridder]

Hello my new learned friends!
Total noob here but I feel like I know a few of the names here because I've been doing hours of research before jumping into the ebike world.
My question today is this, I think I'm decided on the following items from BMSBattery but I can't see any info on the inbuilt controller so don't know if they'll work together.
Here's a copy of the message I sent to BMSB which explains my question:

I'm interested in 2 items but don't know if they will work together. Can you please confirm? 

This motor in 26 inch wheel:
-- Q100H 36V350W Front E-Bike Motor Wheel
260rpm version
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/632-q100h-36v350w-front-e-bike-motor-wheel-ebike-kit.html

Combined with this battery and controller kit:
-- 48V10Ah Bottle-09 E-Bike Battery Pack
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/681-48v10ah-bottle-09-e-bike-battery-pack-battery.html
1. A 48V10Ah battery pack included a 20A sine wave controller and a EMC-180 charger.
2. One S-LCD3, One Thumb throttle, A pair of Brake Grip, One PAS And Waterproof Easy Assemble Wires.
Notice:
1. Please download controller to motor waterproof wire diagram to make sure if it fits your motor.
2. It only fits the motor with inner speed sensor. Please make sure your motor has inner speed sensor. It doesn't fit the external speed sensor.

I know the motor is rated at 36v and I've chosen a 48v battery but I believe the motor can handle it and I'll get a little more speed. Is this true? 
I want to be absolutely sure this will be a working combination before ordering and I'm happy to take any advice you can give. 

Ps - I'm happy to do some pedaling to help it along.

--------------

So it's the same question to you guys. Will it work reliably or will I fry something?
Have any of you had experience or know the stats of this inbuilt controller?

 

[motomech]

I haven't use that specific controller, but I'm pretty sure that your proposed combo will work fine.

 

[d8veh]

It'll work, but you must take into consideration that it's a small motor. It does pack a punch for its size, but it's never going to winch you up a hill. You need a BPM for that. The Q100H has an advantage when you want a light-weight bike like a road bike or a folder. It's also good if you're light yourself.

That integrated controller is 20A, which is a little on the high side for the Q100H, but you can use it as long as you're careful. If you're lucky, it might have current control or current limiting via the LCD, so you can cut the current down a bit.

The Q100H doesn't have the speed sensor in it, so you have to get the external wheel speed sensor and join it to the white wire in the controller.

 

[friendly1uk]

Make sure they supply the Q100 with 9 pin connector and internal speed sensor to suit the 09 battery controller.

I have ordered motors too big for the 9 pin lead, but they fitted it anyway. Then ordered again along with the 09 battery and controller meaning I needed the 9 pin, and didn't get one. At all times, don't expect anyone their to make any sense at all. Or to get exactly what you ordered. You will need that q100 to have the lead with the 9 pin plug so it can connect to the 09 battery controller. Otherwise it's quite a bit of work of an unfavourable nature (lots of soldering in cramped conditions)

You might be interested in the thread I did about the 09
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64667
It's a bit more than you should need to know.



Sunder, 35 amps won't blow a 25 amp fuse. It might, but it don't have to. A 25A fuse protects a 25A circuit from short circuits and sustained overloads. Being a thermal device(that blows)you can't have it sized to melt at 26A because at 25A it would be glowing red hot and melting it's surroundings. This 25A fuse must remain cool when operating at 25A so can be nowhere near blowing. So when will it blow? Well it likely has a 'fusing factor' of around 2. Meaning at twice the fuses rating (50a) it will blow, but no time scale is applied. It could take a week. This is why thermal devices are being phased out as quick as possible wherever possible.

 

[chridder]

Thanks for the tips guys. Useful information in a very quick fashion, loving your work! A lot more informative than the BMSB response copied below...

hello sir 

48v battery only can be used with 48v motor ,can't use with 36v motor.

bmsbattery

I kept my return email really simple and just asked if they can supply the motor with the 9 pin plug and internal speed sensor. Forgot to ask if the controller is programmable for current limiting but that many questions may have been pushing my luck anyway!

Cheers again
chridder

 

[d8veh]

BMSB have no idea whether their customers understand what they're doing. They must get loads of them don't, and they send BMSB an email saying that their motor burnt out and they want a refund. You can't blame them for trying to make it simple and safe.

BMSB don't understand English very well, so you have to keep questions short and to the point. Questions like, " Does the motor come with a speed sensor" has two meanings. BMSB will answer "yes" because there could be a wheelspeed sensor in the box with the motor. If you ask the question, "is there a speed sensor inside the Q100H", you've got a better chance of getting the correct answer.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I am trying to figure out their answers as well, you have to re-phrase your question a few times.

They say that the Q100H is more power and better quality than the Q100,
but then when I ask if the Q100c ( a third motor that takes a cassette ), is like the Q100 or Q100H ( to see if the q100h would be more power than the Q100C ) , they say, ... this two is almost same,
so I had to re-phrase my question ,
then they go on to say
that the Q100c is same quality as Q100H .

I really want to hear from the E.S. members that had experience with both the Q100H ( that takes 7 speed spacing freewheels )
and
the Q100c cst ( that can accept up to 9 speed Cassette ) to see if there is a difference in torque/speed

Thanks for the tips guys. Useful information in a very quick fashion, loving your work! A lot more informative than the BMSB response copied below...

hello sir 

48v battery only can be used with 48v motor ,can't use with 36v motor.

bmsbattery

I kept my return email really simple and just asked if they can supply the motor with the 9 pin plug and internal speed sensor. Forgot to ask if the controller is programmable for current limiting but that many questions may have been pushing my luck anyway!

Cheers again
chridder

 

[motomech]

I am trying to figure out their answers as well, you have to re-phrase your question a few times.

They say that the Q100H is more power and better quality than the Q100,
but then when I ask if the Q100c ( a third motor that takes a cassette ), is like the Q100 or Q100H ( to see if the q100h would be more power than the Q100C ) , they say, ... this two is almost same,
so I had to re-phrase my question ,
then they go on to say
that the Q100c is same quality as Q100H .

I really want to hear from the E.S. members that had experience with both the Q100H ( that takes 7 speed spacing freewheels )
and
the Q100c cst ( that can accept up to 9 speed Cassette ) to see if there is a difference in torque/speed

Thanks for the tips guys. Useful information in a very quick fashion, loving your work! A lot more informative than the BMSB response copied below...

hello sir 

48v battery only can be used with 48v motor ,can't use with 36v motor.

bmsbattery

I kept my return email really simple and just asked if they can supply the motor with the 9 pin plug and internal speed sensor. Forgot to ask if the controller is programmable for current limiting but that many questions may have been pushing my luck anyway!

Cheers again
chridder

The Motor doesn't determin how much "power" is produced, the controller/battery does that, but the motor can be what determins how much can be applied.
I have used a standard Q100 rear and a CST rear, a standard Q100 frt. and I have a Q100H frt. on order.
The standard, with a 9-speed free wheel, is 135 mm wide and the CST with a 9-speed cassette is 137 mm wide. Both will take a 10-speed if you want to spread the chain stays some. The CST requires major "dishing" to center the rim, much more than the standard.
They are all the same "quality", which is pretty good considering what they cost.
All Cutes come with a 9-pin connector.
None of the BMS Batt. controllers that work with the Q100 are programable, but current can be limited in PAS w/ the SO6S, but it's only a 15 A controller to start with.

 

[motomech]

Well, Since D8veh says the PAS w/ a sine wave is worth the trouble, I'm going to try the SO6S again, but this time on 11S(44V).
I killed one on 12S.
I have a Q100H (blk./frt.), new-style crank sensor and a SO6S on order.
Will post the results here.
Going for super stealth, both visual and audible.

 

[Sunder]

Sunder, 35 amps won't blow a 25 amp fuse. It might, but it don't have to.

The fuse that I had was R = Indefinite, R + 10% = 10 minutes, R + 50% < 1s. Where R is the rating.

35amps is a little less than R + 50%, so a 2-3 second current should kill it.

 

[chridder]

Hi ebikers,
Just wanted to let you know I had a few beers for courage and took the plunge into the ebike community.
I've hedged my bets and ordered the motor and controller from elifebike and the battery from BMSBattery.
Based on the pages of info I've read on this forum I went with the following:
--- 36V/ 48V 350W 9 Mosfets E-Bike Motor Controller with LED meter
- Voltage: 48V
- LED meter: with LED-810
- Controller Case : with E-Controller-B-black
- PAS: with PAS
- Throttle : with Throttle
--- 350W M100 Front E-Bike kit
- Voltage-Motor Color: 36V-Silver-(Hall Sensor)(261RPM)
- Wheel size:26inch
- Brake Lever: add Wuxing Brake

--- New design bottle ebike battery pack 48V10Ah Specification:
1. Normal voltage: 48V.
2. Continuous discharge current: 20A
3. Charge current: 3A.
4. 4P13S Li-ion 2.5Ah 18650 cells.

----------
"yeah, so why are you telling us?" I hear you ask! ...
Well, because I'm mixing and matching a little bit I'm happy for you guys to point out anything I might need or need to do in preparation for assembly?
As you can see I'm going overvoltage on the motor for a bit more speed (they're relatively cheap if I fry it) but the controller max is 17A which I'm led to believe may keep the motor fairly happy.
I'm more than happy to provide pedal assist for most of my riding and will probably be using it in PAS mode most of the time.
So, any advice?
Will I need to do any soldering to hook it all up? (I'm fairly handy on the soldering iron).
Should I be careful going full power up hills or anything with this set up?

As background, my commute is about 25 km per day on reasonably flat ground with the occasional 10% hill. My calcs show I should easily achieve that with pedal assist.

That's enough babbling for tonight.
C ya.

Ps - it's a bugger the Aussie dollar is weak at the moment cause it cost more than I would've liked but fuel savings will hopefully make up for it.

 

[d8veh]

The only thing I'm not sure of is whether their motor is the same as the Q100H or the cooking version Q100. Hopefully it'll be OK whatever. The 36v 261 rpm at 48v will give you about 25 mph. If that's the Q100, it will get hot if you're not careful. Do some trials to see how hot it gets and let us know. I ran the 328 rpm Q100 as a 2WD in 26" wheels. It wanted to go 25 mph all the time, which was OK, but both motors got hot on a long 10% hill, and both 15A controllers overheated because they were giving the maximum 15A nearly all the time because of the speed of the motor. I think a 201 rpm motor overvolted to give 260 rpm would have been better, but, as you say, they don't cost much and it's fairly easy to swap the cores if it does burn, so you only have to buy a bare motor.

 

[friendly1uk]

Sunder, that's a remarkably quick fuse. Nice to see you have it in hand. Hopefully what I said will be of use to someone else


The new 09 48/10 bottle battery comes in a version with built in controller. 20 Amp sinewave, supplied with lcd and all accessories, plug and play with 9pin. You can turn the 20 amps down a bit through menu selections. It would make your install a breeze. Nothing but plugs and finding somewhere to loose the excess cable length. I think the board is $20.50 alone, but that would mean soldering every wire in.

 

[motomech]

Hi ebikers,
Just wanted to let you know I had a few beers for courage and took the plunge into the ebike community.
I've hedged my bets and ordered the motor and controller from elifebike and the battery from BMSBattery.
Based on the pages of info I've read on this forum I went with the following:
--- 36V/ 48V 350W 9 Mosfets E-Bike Motor Controller with LED meter
- Voltage: 48V
- LED meter: with LED-810
- Controller Case : with E-Controller-B-black
- PAS: with PAS
- Throttle : with Throttle
--- 350W M100 Front E-Bike kit
- Voltage-Motor Color: 36V-Silver-(Hall Sensor)(261RPM)
- Wheel size:26inch
- Brake Lever: add Wuxing Brake

--- New design bottle ebike battery pack 48V10Ah Specification:
1. Normal voltage: 48V.
2. Continuous discharge current: 20A
3. Charge current: 3A.
4. 4P13S Li-ion 2.5Ah 18650 cells.

----------
"yeah, so why are you telling us?" I hear you ask! ...
Well, because I'm mixing and matching a little bit I'm happy for you guys to point out anything I might need or need to do in preparation for assembly?
As you can see I'm going overvoltage on the motor for a bit more speed (they're relatively cheap if I fry it) but the controller max is 17A which I'm led to believe may keep the motor fairly happy.
I'm more than happy to provide pedal assist for most of my riding and will probably be using it in PAS mode most of the time.
So, any advice?
Will I need to do any soldering to hook it all up? (I'm fairly handy on the soldering iron).
Should I be careful going full power up hills or anything with this set up?

As background, my commute is about 25 km per day on reasonably flat ground with the occasional 10% hill. My calcs show I should easily achieve that with pedal assist.

That's enough babbling for tonight.
C ya.

Ps - it's a bugger the Aussie dollar is weak at the moment cause it cost more than I would've liked but fuel savings will hopefully make up for it.

It sounds like you may have read some of my posts.
I think that you will like the finished product. In fact, if I were not so invested in Lipo, your order list is exactly what I would order for a new build.
I have used/or have on order, all the items you have listed.
I ordered everything from BMS Battery(except controller) because I wanted the motor in black, but your motor kit is the "higher powered" Cute, which Elifebike tags as a "F" and BMS B. gives a suffix of "H".
I am not sure why D8veh as experienced over-heating with Q100 motors. Sunder, Fellow, Crossbreak, Mtl34 and I have used various Cute motors at Voltages up to 14S(58V?) and Amps in the 20's and none of us have had the Cute even get particularly warm.
But most of us have had over-heating with the tiny 6-FET controllers, especially if they are in a bag.
That is one of the reasons I like the 9-FET from ELB. It is larger and has lot's of air-space inside the case.
I am using one now on a "328" Cute(in a 24" whl.), and it is inside a bag, and although it gets warm, it is holding up fine.
It is a very smooth and quiet unit and I think even the 500W(19A) version would be safe on most Q100 applications(I have one here to try). BTW, they are available on Ebay, if you ever need to order one.
The cruise engages very quickly, almost too quick, after just a couple of seconds of holding the button down. I have not used the PAS with that controller, so I am curious as to what your experience will be with it. Speaking of PAS, did you order the "new style" crank sensor?
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/705-dual-hall-sensor-12-signals-easy-assembling-pas-ebike-kit.html
I think this is the one to use, as I have found the older style to be finicky to get to work.
I don't think you will need to solder anything(depends on Battery connector). I have replaced all of the kit connectors in the past when I wanted to shorten the cables/wires. You will have lot's of extra lenght w/ the frt. whl. kit and if you can, try and put the extra "loops" in a bag for a clean install. The one set of connectors I would recommend replacing or eliminating are the crimp-on bullets on the three phase wires. I use 3.5 mm bullets from Hobbyking, but one can just solder the wires directly. Make sure all the little pins are pushed in all the way in with the Hall, nylon connector.
As for hills, just make sure that you don't let the speed get too low, under, maybe, 10 mph. If you can get a good run up, it would take pretty long hill to get you slowed down that much, so you should be fine.
As for range, I usually get 1 1/2 miles per battery Ah, so your daily commute should not be a problem.

Let us know how it turns out.

EDIT: I see you have ordered the controller case. I have tried those(although, not with that controller)and have never been happy with the way they go together. If you feel like you might want to try something else, a good solution are sm. inexspensive "over the rail" frame bags, like these(half way down;

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63940&p=1003770&hilit=scott#p1003770

There is room in the side pocket to stash extra wire. Mine is counterbalanced with a Lipo batt. You could put in a tool kit or whatever.