Another No Solder/Weld 18650 Build (Updated 03/09/2014)

[VRUZEND]

I also ordered mine (4 kits to experiment, so 400 caps for 200 cells... might just start playing around with laptop cells to compare with my previous experiment using laptop cells and springsteel nickel plated....) Not sure yet if i'll try it on my VTC4.

In the meantime, I made some calculations to estimate total resistance of pack with Vrizund kit.
All conductive parts are stainless steel....
Made measures from video. I estimated that worst case scenario, the sping contact post are 3 milliohms each.
The interconnecting bussbars (2.5 cm long hole to hole ; 8 mm wide and 0.5 mm thick) are also stainless steel.

So if I make a 14S10P pack out of 140 Sony VTC4 cells I get the following (I don't want to get into details of calculation.... bit too complicated to explain, but using ohms law, resistance in series law, resistance in parallele law, etc...)
Each VTC4 cells is 23 milliohms DC internal resistance.

14S10P in ideal world where connection would have no resistance would yield at total pack resitance of 32 milliohms.
With Vrizund kit, that would come to 64 milliohms (14S10P with each 10P pack with 2 rows of 5 cells, and 5 strips to connect each 10P subpack to the next one).
With Vrizund kit, if I change the Stainless steel for copper interconnecting strips (keeping exact same strip dimensions), that would come to 41 milliohms.

Is this 14S 10P configureation (each 10P 2x5 cells with 5 strips interconnecting each subpack), the contact terminals are responsible for adding up 8.4 milliohms to the pack, while the inteconnecting strips add a total of 23.4 milliohms to the pack, but only 0.567 milliohms total if swapped for copper interconnecting strips of same dimensions (25 mm long x 8 mm wide x 0.5 mm long).
So pushing my BBSHD controller to maximum 30amps, id' see a 1.94 voltage drop on the original Vrizund kit with that 10P pack... Compare that to 1.23V drop with copper bussbars or with 0.96V drop in an ideal world (using supraconductors if a could, zero resitance !). Quite acceptable a priori.

I wont go into details. While this might seem like adding a lot of resistance to the pack, it shows because my cells are of low intrinseque resistance valures.

For instance, do the same with Panasonic GA cells (around 38 milliohms each cell https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=73701#p1112249) and you get for 14S10P in this architectural configuration :

53 milliohms ideal world (resistance-less connection - zero resistance) --> 30A drop of 1.59V (10P pack)
85 milliohms with original Vrizund kit --> 30 A drop of 2.55 V
62 milliohms with Vrizund kit but swapped bussbars for copper instead of stainless steel. --> 30A drop of 1.86V (10P pack).

Pushing the example to the extreme, using old laptop cells (let's say 150 milliohms each cell), it becomes even less apparent :
210 milliohms ideal world (resistance-less connection - zero resistance). --> 30A drop of 6.3V (DONT PUSH 30A on laptop cells !)
242 milliohms with original Vrizund kit --> 30A voltage drop of 7.26V
217 milliohms with Vrizund kit but swapped bussbars for copper instead of stainless steel. --> 30A voltage drop of 6.51V.

Ordered 4 kits.... Dunno if it will be okay at 30amps, but it will most probably work wonders with lower power eBikes too (10-20A).

DISCLAIMER : These numbers are estimations I made. I migh be pleasently surprised by better conductivity. Yet, there still the question of proper contact pressure to be explored in practice. But anyhow I have 2 uses for 18650 : eBikes and small (<100Ah) Power banks...

BTW, I just notice, with my 14S10P VTC4 cell pack, if my 10P subpack are 1 row of 10 cells instead of 2 rows of 5 cells, and IF I then put 10 interconnecting strips between each subpack instead of 5, then the SS stips of the original Vrizund kit would add 11.7 milliohms instead of 23.4 milliohms. Fot copper bussbars, it would be 0.284 instead of 0.567 milliohms
That would mean :
32 milliohms ideal world (resistance-less connection - zero resistance). --> 30A drop of 0.96V (drop inherent to cell IR only)
52 milliohms with original Vrizund kit --> 30A voltage drop of 1.56V
41 milliohms with Vrizund kit but swapped bussbars for copper instead of stainless steel. --> 30A voltage drop of 1.23V

You are just truly amazing! Thanks

 

[VRUZEND]

[youtube]6M6Mm6jWqSk[/youtube]

I like the product and the price is right but I don't know about zip ties.

Hey the zip ties are to further secure the two opposite blocks and maintain strong contact between the cell and the internal contact. This thing is actually designed for stealth vehicles of the military and the police that need to be operated on rough terrain. So the zip ties are essential.

 

[Ecyclist]

[youtube]6M6Mm6jWqSk[/youtube]

I like the product and the price is right but I don't know about zip ties.

Hey the zip ties are to further secure the two opposite blocks and maintain strong contact between the cell and the internal contact. This thing is actually designed for stealth vehicles of the military and the police that need to be operated on rough terrain. So the zip ties are essential.

I'll take it as a joke.

 

[agniusm]

No joke here

 

[tomjasz]

[
I'll take it as a joke.

Relax and give the guy a break. New products get introduced and dveloped here. As it stands the connectors alone aren't badly priced. You take a $475 flier on a damaged battery pack, but $19 is to risky...

 

[agniusm]

tomjasz, essentially it is what it is and it was developed long ago. Here it is:

It was talked over and over on ES

 

[teslanv]

What has happened to the "Test & report back" mentality?

Seems like there's a lot of trash talking, without any data to support the opinion.

 

[tomjasz]

tomjasz, essentially it is what it is and it was developed long ago. Here it is:



It was talked over and over on ES

Look the guy is doing pretty much the same thing as you. But he introduced a product and is selling it. It is not like trying to fit 100 of the parts you posted. Lets get some in our hands and see. He's willing to learn and adapt ideas. What in the world could be wrong with that?
So far your design is incredibly nice, but we can't have it or trial it. ES site is all about learning and experimenting. Let's not throw ideas away simply because one or two think theirs is better.

Looks more like an improvement on these...with hardware.

 

[Ecyclist]

[
I'll take it as a joke.

Relax and give the guy a break. New products get introduced and dveloped here. As it stands the connectors alone aren't badly priced. You take a $475 flier on a damaged battery pack, but $19 is to risky...

But I'm relaxed and actually laughing.
You see, I'm not an expert, but at least I stripped apart a Tesla battery pack, so now I have a clear understanding of battery pack build.
Tesla pack is absolutely solid, like a brick, and I assume that Tesla people know what they are doing. If you are planning to use an "Indian Connection" as opposed to the "French Connection" (BTW I posted that "I like the product and the price is right"), than you need to find the way to make the pack solid. Placing it between to FG or CF plates is one way to do it. Just keep in mind that CF is conductive once the surface resin is gone.
On the other note, out of 6 groups in the Tesla pack I bought, for $470, 4 were good. With voltage 3.6 - 3.62V. That's 296 cells. 470/296= $1.59 per cell. Plus, I learned a lot about proper pack build and that is priceless. Overall, an OK deal.
Agree?

 

[spinningmagnets]

Does anyone make these (or something similar) in blocks that have a honeycomb pattern (instead of rectangular)? I can even see buying a large block that has too many cell-places, and I just cut away the parts I don't want, to make the pack size I would like...

 

[fechter]

Does anyone make these (or something similar) in blocks that have a honeycomb pattern (instead of rectangular)? I can even see buying a large block that has too many cell-places, and I just cut away the parts I don't want, to make the pack size I would like...

Check here:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/13S5P-Battery-Bracket-Plastic-18650-Cylindrical_60243733279.html

They do exist. I remember somebody 3D printed a nice one.

 

[agniusm]

tomjasz, essentially it is what it is and it was developed long ago. Here it is:



It was talked over and over on ES

Look the guy is doing pretty much the same thing as you. But he introduced a product and is selling it. It is not like trying to fit 100 of the parts you posted. Lets get some in our hands and see. He's willing to learn and adapt ideas. What in the world could be wrong with that?
So far your design is incredibly nice, but we can't have it or trial it. ES site is all about learning and experimenting. Let's not throw ideas away simply because one or two think theirs is better.

Looks more like an improvement on these...with hardware.

You got the wrong impression. I am NOT promoting stuff i do. I am saying that learning and experimenting was done and not excepted by members who were working in OEM battery developement. Perhaps that experience is nothing to you and you tend to chase the cheapest stuff you can get but that does not make its the right stuff.
You say learn and experiment, design. There is no design here. Take 18650 holders, put some conductive inserts with dimples in them, cells, bang with hammer and ziptie them and your done. Thats it. I am continuing working on Snath design and LFP was talking about compression and material choice to keep cells in good contact all the time and my vision is towards these guys who done incredible.
Maybe you cant test mine at the moment, perhaps it is because you wont have to, cause thats my work to make sure battery is safe as i can get it. Thats why i dont force it, its because i want it solid and tested properly.
Anyway, for 19usd, i cant beat that.

 

[jonescg]

Just noticed that a thread on 18650s has had 26650 views

 

[VRUZEND]

[youtube]6M6Mm6jWqSk[/youtube]

I like the product and the price is right but I don't know about zip ties.

Hey the zip ties are to further secure the two opposite blocks and maintain strong contact between the cell and the internal contact. This thing is actually designed for stealth vehicles of the military and the police that need to be operated on rough terrain. So the zip ties are essential.

I'll take it as a joke.

Hello Sir,

Every component is well thought of and given for a reason. Me giving zip ties along with the kit has a reason and it adds to the kits cost as well. So if it were truly of no need I wouldn't have given them. The fitting of the caps is really tight. The block once made wouldn't come off or apart but when driving on a dirt road (By dirt road I mean something resembling the lunar surface ) the zip ties will hold the opposite blocks together. Its just an added feature for security and to avoid any performance issues.

And when I said its designed for stealth E vehicles of military and police I meant it. Though that kit is a bit different but the concept is the same.

As for quality, its unmatched. You wont get the same grades of material for the value I am offering it.

All I can advice is you are entitled to your thoughts views and opinions but at least try it out before proclaiming something to be different than whats proposed.

Cheers!

 

[spinningmagnets]

I don't have a problem with the basic kit using zip-ties. the quality and strength of zip-ties varies widely, and you just need to get good ones. That being said, there is nothing stopping anyone from buying this kit, and upgrading the banding material to something more robust.

 

[VRUZEND]

tomjasz, essentially it is what it is and it was developed long ago. Here it is:



It was talked over and over on ES

Look the guy is doing pretty much the same thing as you. But he introduced a product and is selling it. It is not like trying to fit 100 of the parts you posted. Lets get some in our hands and see. He's willing to learn and adapt ideas. What in the world could be wrong with that?
So far your design is incredibly nice, but we can't have it or trial it. ES site is all about learning and experimenting. Let's not throw ideas away simply because one or two think theirs is better.

Looks more like an improvement on these...with hardware.

You got the wrong impression. I am NOT promoting stuff i do. I am saying that learning and experimenting was done and not excepted by members who were working in OEM battery developement. Perhaps that experience is nothing to you and you tend to chase the cheapest stuff you can get but that does not make its the right stuff.
You say learn and experiment, design. There is no design here. Take 18650 holders, put some conductive inserts with dimples in them, cells, bang with hammer and ziptie them and your done. Thats it. I am continuing working on Snath design and LFP was talking about compression and material choice to keep cells in good contact all the time and my vision is towards these guys who done incredible.
Maybe you cant test mine at the moment, perhaps it is because you wont have to, cause thats my work to make sure battery is safe as i can get it. Thats why i dont force it, its because i want it solid and tested properly.
Anyway, for 19usd, i cant beat that.

You are clearly a person who can never accept being beaten or told the truth. There is clearly no entrepreneurship spirit in you and you are the kind who likes to be right always. Do you like these deductions I made ? Without knowing you ?. So why write off a product you have not even used? Don't compare yours to mine. And you apart from most,should be knowing the thought process and the development curve that goes behind making something. Because if it really was all about 'Take 18650 holders, put some conductive inserts with dimples in them, cells, bang with hammer and ziptie them and your done' then am sure you too would have come out with this before hitting puberty right?... By the way I could have priced it at $30 too..would that certify that the product is a quality product and sure to work? When I make something I believe in giving all the benefit to the target audience. My idea is simplistic so as yours. Its really not right what you said. You wouldn't like it if I were remove faults in yours. So dont go down that path.

 

[agniusm]

BTW I would like people to post constructive criticism and faults more than anything else.
I hope you will sell a lot of them, price them better, cause I don't see you making any money on that for future development.
I see this being used in low amps with mild vibrations, don't see this working reliably with medium power. See the man on the YouTube had no contact on one cell cause he bent the terminal inside the plastic holder so he had to bend it back? How many here had their remote not functioning caused by metal not pushing enough on AAA and had to bend it back?
No hate here, just saying my view on this concept and wishing all the success.

 

[VRUZEND]

BTW I would like people to post constructive criticism and faults more than anything else.
I hope you will sell a lot of them, price them better, cause I don't see you making any money on that for future development.
I see this being used in low amps with mild vibrations, don't see this working reliably with medium power. See the man on the YouTube had no contact on one cell cause he bent the terminal inside the plastic holder so he had to bend it back? How many here had their remote not functioning caused by metal not pushing enough on AAA and had to bend it back?
No hate here, just saying my view on this concept and wishing all the success.

I appreciate constructive criticism..what ticked me off was you making it sound worthless and something so easy to make. Thats not true my friend. Have been developing this since 21st December 2015. I know that date and remember that date.

As for the price, trust me am earning well. I appreciate your concerns to price it better to have funds for further development, at the moment $19 is an introductory price.

As for the the metal contact, yes I agree thats why I have clearly mentioned in my post that once you remove the batteries from the cap, before re-placing the cap lift the internal contact upwards. If its hammered well there is no chance of lose contact. And yes my friend hammering may look a bit crude but its an essential step.

The kit has been kept as simple as possible. The cost is low to give the end user all the benefits.

Once more, I am open to criticism and suggestions but please do not make it sound as if its so easy to get this thing made. Not just this thing, any product. The kind of thought process the hard work, the difficulties you face, the experience you gain all of it is very valuable. You among others would know it the most.

 

[fechter]

Let's not get into any personal attacks here. I would like to see somebody's independent test of a product before making a judgement. We can all learn from testing.

VRUZEND has his own topic for his cell holders in the Marketplace section (where it belongs)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=87434

We should try to keep the discussion about VRUZEND over there to prevent the information from being scattered about the forum.

 

[parabellum]

Let's not get into any personal attacks here. I would like to see somebody's independent test of a product before making a judgement. We can all learn from testing.

I ordered several kits, will share results and overall impression, on technical mater, when they arrive.
Must say, I am already impressed by communication details, technical background and quick response, I wish all sellers where like this.

Now, back on topic.

 

[tomjasz]

Perhaps that experience is nothing to you and you tend to chase the cheapest stuff you can get but that does not make its the right stuff.
You say learn and experiment, design. There is no design here. Take 18650 holders, put some conductive inserts with dimples in them, cells, bang with hammer and ziptie them and your done. Thats it. I am continuing working on Snath design and LFP was talking about compression and material choice to keep cells in good contact all the time and my vision is towards these guys who done incredible.
Maybe you cant test mine at the moment, perhaps it is because you wont have to, cause thats my work to make sure battery is safe as i can get it. Thats why i dont force it, its because i want it solid and tested properly.
Anyway, for 19usd, i cant beat that.

When did I EVER indicate that was my feeling or intention? I'm willing to try alternatives to you product simply because yours and quality products like it are UNOBTANIUM. One bike maker tried to introduce a similar design, and it was expensive. I wanted it regardless of the price. Since then only two products have appeared that are for sale. This and the battery blocs, that's it. Why get o fired up? He's not taking anything away from your work, and again, your fantastic design is not available. I've written before on numerous occasions, I'm in whenever you're ready. It's looking REALLY GOOD. But in the meantime here comes a youngster with an idea, he works tirelessly, communicates instantly, and wants to improve. That's the spirit of ES, just as much as your project. Don't like the idea? I get that but Don't get the attack or attempts to demean someones ambition.

 

[tomjasz]

Anyway, for 19usd, i cant beat that.

Silly me, I pointed you out to the young fellow thinking that with his resources there might be a place for you to get your product manufactured at good prices and with high quality plastics. I want to see ALL no solder products succeed. Silly me thinking there could be collaboration!

 

[tomjasz]

Let's not get into any personal attacks here. I would like to see somebody's independent test of a product before making a judgement. We can all learn from testing.

I ordered several kits, will share results and overall impression, on technical mater, when they arrive.
Must say, I am already impressed by communication details, technical background and quick response, I wish all sellers where like this.

Now, back on topic.

Quite amazing as a communicator. Well versed in English usage and very polite as well.

 

[agniusm]

When did I EVER indicate that was my feeling or intention? I'm willing to try alternatives to you product simply because yours and quality products like it are UNOBTANIUM. One bike maker tried to introduce a similar design, and it was expensive. I wanted it regardless of the price. Since then only two products have appeared that are for sale. This and the battery blocs, that's it. Why get o fired up? He's not taking anything away from your work, and again, your fantastic design is not available. I've written before on numerous occasions, I'm in whenever you're ready. It's looking REALLY GOOD. But in the meantime here comes a youngster with an idea, he works tirelessly, communicates instantly, and wants to improve. That's the spirit of ES, just as much as your project. Don't like the idea? I get that but Don't get the attack or attempts to demean someones ambition.

Just want to correct you, its not my design. The concept was brought here by member snath! Also I do not have anything against person behind this development and not getting fired up, I am mumbling on the concept which to me is suspicious, that's all.

 

[tomjasz]

Just want to correct you, its not my design. The concept was brought here by member snath! Also I do not have anything against person behind this development and not getting fired up, I am mumbling on the concept which to me is suspicious, that's all.

Yes I read every post, however I credit you with taking it and making it into something that may work for the masses. Hopefully it will come alive. I just think you'd do better continueing collaborations more than growing suspicions. Just me. I'm in to support all moves forward, with a solderless design.