Good job!
I can't wait to hear how well it performs.
I can't wait to hear how well it performs.
APL's V4 Cruiser Build.
- Thread starter APL
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APL
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Thanks guys! 
I can't wait to hear and see it running too! Now the rain is moving in again, agggh! Well, I need a day to trouble shoot it anyway, I
must have pushed or pulled something when I stuffed it back together in my haste to try it out.
I'm not too good at video's, but I'll try to upload at least something once I get a few bugs out.
I can't wait to hear and see it running too! Now the rain is moving in again, agggh! Well, I need a day to trouble shoot it anyway, I
must have pushed or pulled something when I stuffed it back together in my haste to try it out.
I'm not too good at video's, but I'll try to upload at least something once I get a few bugs out.
That would be so totally cool!!!
That looks great. Looking forward to the first test ride report.
That said, many of my first rides ended up in "the pedal of shame" when something failed and I had to use human power to get the bike home or I had to stop and fix something on the side of the road. That's why the call it a test ride. It's all part of the build process.
That said, many of my first rides ended up in "the pedal of shame" when something failed and I had to use human power to get the bike home or I had to stop and fix something on the side of the road. That's why the call it a test ride. It's all part of the build process.
APL
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Lord help me if I have to pedal, this thing is a tank.. and pretty much a failure in that respect. It's a cell phone bike. :lol: (Fun though)
Next bike is going to be lighter, but after that I was thinking I'm going to have to come back down to earth and get serious about making a real, usable, pedal worthy E bike. (40lb range)
Yep, got to get a report on the bike, the battery, and the controller. :thumb:
Next bike is going to be lighter, but after that I was thinking I'm going to have to come back down to earth and get serious about making a real, usable, pedal worthy E bike. (40lb range)
Yep, got to get a report on the bike, the battery, and the controller. :thumb:
APL
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Spent most of the day tearing all the wiring apart and trying to find the culprit for why she's not working, I finally found out that the controller needs an on-off switch for a fresh command each time. 
Same way with the reverse mode. It will work the first time but then it wont after the main B+ has been shut off, and turned on again.
I wanted to just use the main battery switch to power it up, but I guess you cant leave the controller B+ connected permanent on this one. Probably everybody else knows that already, but I didn't. At any rate, think I got it figured.
https://www.amazon.com/GFHFG-Controller-60V-72V-Brushless-Sinusoidal/dp/B091GL8HQH Has video for connections, otherwise info seems scarce.
The controller plug has a couple of small guides to index, so it's easy to get wrong,.. I thought the chamfered corners were the key,
but nay.
Saw some for 120 degree Hall specs for it, so I was a bit worried, I thought the Leaf is 60 degree but not sure, either way, it looks like they might work together. It's spin's, so we shall see how well.
Same way with the reverse mode. It will work the first time but then it wont after the main B+ has been shut off, and turned on again.I wanted to just use the main battery switch to power it up, but I guess you cant leave the controller B+ connected permanent on this one. Probably everybody else knows that already, but I didn't. At any rate, think I got it figured.
https://www.amazon.com/GFHFG-Controller-60V-72V-Brushless-Sinusoidal/dp/B091GL8HQH Has video for connections, otherwise info seems scarce.
The controller plug has a couple of small guides to index, so it's easy to get wrong,.. I thought the chamfered corners were the key,
but nay.
Saw some for 120 degree Hall specs for it, so I was a bit worried, I thought the Leaf is 60 degree but not sure, either way, it looks like they might work together. It's spin's, so we shall see how well.
I'm not following; could you be more specific about the wiring issue? Where would the switch be? (vs where you have it now)APL said:Spent most of the day tearing all the wiring apart and trying to find the culprit for why she's not working, I finally found out that the controller needs an on-off switch for a fresh command each time.
Do you mean you have to turn the controller off and back on every time you throttle on and then release throttle? Every time you need to engage reverse, you'd have to power cycle it? That sounds like something is wrong with it; I can't imagine a controller *designed* to require a power cycle for a normal operation that might happen dozens of times a day in use....
Unless the B+ in this case is different than usual, or your main battery switch is not in the B+ line, wouldn't that be disconnecting the B+ from the controller already?
120 degrees is used on almost all ebike hubmotors.APL said:
Even if your motor *is* 60 degrees, which I doubt, and the controller has no setting to use that, you can put a logic-inverter (CD4004, SN7404, etc., or even a single-transistor (plus a few resistors) circuit between the center hall and the controller, and get a 120 degree compatible signal out, for most of them. (there's a thread around here for that someplace)
APL said:
If there are pins that are never used (even just one that's not in the center), you could break it off of the controller side, and fill that hole in the connector with a plastic bit, and then it will be keyed so you can't easily plug it in wrong. You could still force it, but presumably you'd know better.
The more keys you can make, the harder it would be to plug in wrong.
APL
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Sorry for the confusion, I'll see if I can decode my own wiring, it's been a while so I can't be sure what the hell I've done.
From memory, the controller had an orange wire that needed to go to positive, from what I read, although now I can't seem to find the info, so maybe I just assumed something and that's what's going on here.
Anti theft? Hmm, now I have to dig around the net all over again and figure this out.
Now I see that it had an orange and black on-off switch connector,.. in which case they should have been twisted together to get this to work the way I want. I'll have to look into what I did with that.
Could it be that I separated the orange and hooked it to pos? Can't imagine I'd be that dumb, but it's possible. 
At any rate, I hooked the orange to the main pos. coming in from the battery, thinking that I'll use the main battery switch to power it all up, (I don't want a separate controller switch.)
It's all working, so I haven't fried anything yet,.. and I'll just switch the phase wires around to get the direction right.
Sorry, thought I had it figured out, but maybe I don't, this is what happens when you take too long to do things and memory gets foggy.
Here's the V4 circuit, the on-off controller switch wires are what I need to look into and see what kind of crazy I've been up to. I don't see any separate orange wire in the original connector pic's now, so maybe that's where I got bejangled, but I'll look around some more today.
If I'm lucky, all I need to do is twist the orange and black together and I'll be done.
From memory, the controller had an orange wire that needed to go to positive, from what I read, although now I can't seem to find the info, so maybe I just assumed something and that's what's going on here.
Anti theft? Hmm, now I have to dig around the net all over again and figure this out.
Now I see that it had an orange and black on-off switch connector,.. in which case they should have been twisted together to get this to work the way I want. I'll have to look into what I did with that.
Could it be that I separated the orange and hooked it to pos? Can't imagine I'd be that dumb, but it's possible. At any rate, I hooked the orange to the main pos. coming in from the battery, thinking that I'll use the main battery switch to power it all up, (I don't want a separate controller switch.)
It's all working, so I haven't fried anything yet,.. and I'll just switch the phase wires around to get the direction right.
Sorry, thought I had it figured out, but maybe I don't, this is what happens when you take too long to do things and memory gets foggy.
Here's the V4 circuit, the on-off controller switch wires are what I need to look into and see what kind of crazy I've been up to. I don't see any separate orange wire in the original connector pic's now, so maybe that's where I got bejangled, but I'll look around some more today.
If I'm lucky, all I need to do is twist the orange and black together and I'll be done.
APL
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OK, in the Amazon wire connection video that I posted above, at 2:25 he shows the orange power wire, so I guess I do have it right., and the connector pictures are not always current.
The part that confuses me is that the system only works upon initial start up, .. once it's shut down and re-started, the orange wire has to be disconnected and reconnected for the controller to work again. IE.. a switch.
The part that confuses me is that the system only works upon initial start up, .. once it's shut down and re-started, the orange wire has to be disconnected and reconnected for the controller to work again. IE.. a switch.
APL
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Anyway, I put a toggle switch across the orange power wire and now it works fine, like a reset. One down, and thought I was done, but no...
The new problem is that the motor wants to change direction on most every throttle pull,.. looks like Hall quicksand coming up, and I guess I have to switch some Hall wires around, and see if it will run better.
The new problem is that the motor wants to change direction on most every throttle pull,.. looks like Hall quicksand coming up, and I guess I have to switch some Hall wires around, and see if it will run better.
Toggling the power on the orange wire will trigger a reboot. I guess when you shut it off before it was triggering some kind of fault that kept it off until rebooted.
APL said:
Many controllers use a thin orange (or thin red) wire for Keyswitch / Ignition (KSI). What this does in most of them is provide the battery power to the low-voltage power supply (LVPS), so they can be safely tied to the battery positive and left that way, and then just switch power on and off with the main battery line. Or leave battery always hooked up, and switch just the LVPS on and off, as that is where almost all the idle current would be drawn (and no main power can be drawn when the LVPS isn't powering the brain).
Some controllers use a low-voltage enable line, rather than battery-level. Is yours actually supposed to be battery-voltage, or is it like (IIRC) some Kellys that use a lower voltage?
Since yours requires that enable / KSI line to be powered *after* main power has been turned on (for how long?), you can use a transistor or FET with it's base (or gate) powered by a resistor/capacitor (RC) circuit that takes a certain amount of time to build up to the voltage to turn on the transistor/FET. (there are chips to do that, too, like the 555 timer, but they don't usually run directly off the voltages our batteries tend to be at). A relay can also be used instead of transistor/FET; none of them need to handle much current (<1A I bet), just the full battery voltage it could possibly ever see.
I'm too sleepy to figure one out, but I bet there are dozens of them out there on da intarwebz.
Test the idea first by leaving the orange wire not connected at all when powering up the system, and then connect it as before. If it works normally, then it just needs a small delay before connecting, and the delay circuit idea above would fix it.
APL
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Thanks amberwolf, I see what you mean about the delay, it would be nice not having a switch. Thanks for the 120 degree info too,
saved me from that worry. I don't deal with Halls too much, but they open up a lot more controller choices.
I looked through the ES 'Votol EM-100 thread' from 2018 again, and the KSI issue was discussed in the first several post's. This Yantan thing has got a lot in common with the Votol, circuit wise, like maybe it uses the same brain, but I don't know about the guts,..
since it's half the price. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=95969
Recon I'll find out,.. mostly curious about it, otherwise I'll move on to the EM-100 and upgrade, since I know it will look and fit right.
I finally found a picture of the insides,.. but now I cant find a pic of the EM 100 open to compare. Whatever,.. for the archives..
Cheap controller porn.
saved me from that worry. I don't deal with Halls too much, but they open up a lot more controller choices.
I looked through the ES 'Votol EM-100 thread' from 2018 again, and the KSI issue was discussed in the first several post's. This Yantan thing has got a lot in common with the Votol, circuit wise, like maybe it uses the same brain, but I don't know about the guts,..
since it's half the price. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=95969
Recon I'll find out,.. mostly curious about it, otherwise I'll move on to the EM-100 and upgrade, since I know it will look and fit right.
I finally found a picture of the insides,.. but now I cant find a pic of the EM 100 open to compare. Whatever,.. for the archives..
Cheap controller porn.
APL
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After shuffling Hall and phase wires around a dozen times, I finally found the 'combo', and now she's got the blur! 
Thanks for all the help guys! :thumb:
Good deal, she's ready to go contanker'n down the road! All I need is a dry day, and I see one coming up. 8)
Got my fingers crossed.
Seems like the Hall shuffle thing is the norm. Since they're putting Bluetooth in everything, I was thinking they could Bluetooth the hall signasl to the controller and use the phone app to tweak the connections. Or better yet, just standardize the connection color code. :wink:
Thanks for all the help guys! :thumb:
Good deal, she's ready to go contanker'n down the road! All I need is a dry day, and I see one coming up. 8)
Got my fingers crossed.
Seems like the Hall shuffle thing is the norm. Since they're putting Bluetooth in everything, I was thinking they could Bluetooth the hall signasl to the controller and use the phone app to tweak the connections. Or better yet, just standardize the connection color code. :wink:
APL
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Weather was good today, although 60 degrees will bring a tear at 30mph after a while, at least I was able to pull the throttle back a few times, and see where it's all at.
Good news is that it works prefect,.. nice and quiet, and accelerates right up to 28.5 mph in a snap! Draws about 300 - 400 watts at cruise speed. Couldn't be happier. Gearing is spot on, although I'll probably bump the 20T to a 22T on the 1/8"" chain set up.
Nice smooth ride, and I think the extra weight actually makes the front fork work better.
Bad news is that I can only get it to draw 1000w or so,.. it's kind of hard to stress the battery because it whips up to speed so fast.
Measured the battery temp at 50 degrees before the test and the wind wasn't warming anything up, so I figure must be cold cells.
Plus, they've been sitting for years and could probably use at least one charge cycle before I render a verdict.
I'll run it through a few cycles and see if I can get it to do better,.. last year I was getting 1500w from the 10P and this is an 11P
un-chained, so I know it's got to do a little better than that!
Might have to face the fact that these are just beat up low quality cells and 2kw is about all I'm ever going to squeeze them for too.
You can bet I'm starting to look through the battery stores though,.. might be time to think about some decent batteries. :|
Good news is that it works prefect,.. nice and quiet, and accelerates right up to 28.5 mph in a snap! Draws about 300 - 400 watts at cruise speed. Couldn't be happier. Gearing is spot on, although I'll probably bump the 20T to a 22T on the 1/8"" chain set up.
Nice smooth ride, and I think the extra weight actually makes the front fork work better.
Bad news is that I can only get it to draw 1000w or so,.. it's kind of hard to stress the battery because it whips up to speed so fast.
Measured the battery temp at 50 degrees before the test and the wind wasn't warming anything up, so I figure must be cold cells.
Plus, they've been sitting for years and could probably use at least one charge cycle before I render a verdict.
I'll run it through a few cycles and see if I can get it to do better,.. last year I was getting 1500w from the 10P and this is an 11P
un-chained, so I know it's got to do a little better than that!
Might have to face the fact that these are just beat up low quality cells and 2kw is about all I'm ever going to squeeze them for too.
You can bet I'm starting to look through the battery stores though,.. might be time to think about some decent batteries. :|
Sounds great.
Can you measure the battery voltage during acceleration? Is the controller hitting the current limit?
Increasing the current limit is pretty easy on most controllers, but if the battery voltage is too low for the motor wind, you won't be hitting it. If you have more voltage, you'd get a higher top speed but you can always adjust the gear ratio to keep it the same and get more acceleration.
It sounds like you have it dialed in pretty nice the way it is. The next test would be to find a steep hill and see how it does.
Can you measure the battery voltage during acceleration? Is the controller hitting the current limit?
Increasing the current limit is pretty easy on most controllers, but if the battery voltage is too low for the motor wind, you won't be hitting it. If you have more voltage, you'd get a higher top speed but you can always adjust the gear ratio to keep it the same and get more acceleration.
It sounds like you have it dialed in pretty nice the way it is. The next test would be to find a steep hill and see how it does.
mxlemming
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1kW sounds very low for that setup. And that battery looks quite large. I don't know much about batteries but surely it can do more than that?
That controller also looks very large for not so much power. 18 MOSFETs to push 1kW? Erm... You can do that with a controller 5x6cm. Might be an issue with just excessively basic controller software as well? Did you try VESC yet? Many have amazing results and many struggle for ages.
That controller also looks very large for not so much power. 18 MOSFETs to push 1kW? Erm... You can do that with a controller 5x6cm. Might be an issue with just excessively basic controller software as well? Did you try VESC yet? Many have amazing results and many struggle for ages.
APL
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Laughing at the size of my KW? :lol: I know
I feel nurtured.
Where's the beef?
But my secret weapon is the refill battery box. Controller and BMS are good for 80 amps, so that's not the problem.
3000w mid drive with a 2:1 reduction is 6000w at the rear, so yea, it should flip me like a pancake.
Even at 1KW I can feel that it's much more snappy than before, and the throttle is more sensitive to movement. A 36 rear cog is low, and It has no problem getting around. It will still work fine at the legal 750w.
But gee, I'd like to see what 60A or 80A is like,.. not 30A! JC, I'm riding a welder!
Box has solid copper series strips and 8 awg wire so that's not it either. At least I'm not ready to suspect it yet, barncat pulled a lot of power out of his, so I'm going to shelf that for the moment.
The cells are totally suspicious though, since I randomly pulled them from a shelf, knowing nothing about them except they had good volts. They could easily be worn out, and probably are.
The 11P battery only needs 10A from each cell to give 110A to the controller, so I think these things probably stink.
But I'll do a few charge - discharges and see if they wake up some, she's feed'n off the grid as we speak.
Pretty sure I'm going to get new cells though. Have no idea what yet, or when,.. I keep looking at these cells from Battery Clearing house. https://www.batteryclearinghouse.com/collections/18650-cells/products/like-new-unwrapped-panasonic-ncr1865j2-3400mah-18650-high-grade-cells?variant=39522178302030
I feel nurtured.
Where's the beef?
But my secret weapon is the refill battery box. Controller and BMS are good for 80 amps, so that's not the problem.
3000w mid drive with a 2:1 reduction is 6000w at the rear, so yea, it should flip me like a pancake.
Even at 1KW I can feel that it's much more snappy than before, and the throttle is more sensitive to movement. A 36 rear cog is low, and It has no problem getting around. It will still work fine at the legal 750w.
But gee, I'd like to see what 60A or 80A is like,.. not 30A! JC, I'm riding a welder!
Box has solid copper series strips and 8 awg wire so that's not it either. At least I'm not ready to suspect it yet, barncat pulled a lot of power out of his, so I'm going to shelf that for the moment.
The cells are totally suspicious though, since I randomly pulled them from a shelf, knowing nothing about them except they had good volts. They could easily be worn out, and probably are.
The 11P battery only needs 10A from each cell to give 110A to the controller, so I think these things probably stink.
But I'll do a few charge - discharges and see if they wake up some, she's feed'n off the grid as we speak.
Pretty sure I'm going to get new cells though. Have no idea what yet, or when,.. I keep looking at these cells from Battery Clearing house. https://www.batteryclearinghouse.com/collections/18650-cells/products/like-new-unwrapped-panasonic-ncr1865j2-3400mah-18650-high-grade-cells?variant=39522178302030
It's still 3000w. (well, a little less because of efficiency losses in the drivetrain)APL said:
The reduction just converts speed to torque at that ratio.
APL said:
If you want to draw more power, you have to put it under a higher load (ride up a hill, tie a car to the frame, etc).
The system will only draw the power needed to perform the task at hand.
If it only draws 1000w before shutting down due to voltage sag, then that's a battery (or wiring) problem.
If it only draws 1000w but performs the task asked of it, then that's all it took to do that.
On my A2B, I can only get the motor to draw about 50A, even though the battery, BMS and controller can do more. The limitation is in the motor windings. On flat ground, it will only draw 50A for less than a second, then it tapers down as the speed picks up. On a really steep hill, I can keep it at 50 for a while. I wouldn't want to gear it up to make it draw more. It's a direct drive hub motor, so the only option there would be wheel size. I could increase the voltage, which would allow it to draw more and increase the torque a bit at the low end. This would probably be the best (if I wanted more). It's running 52v and tops out around 30mph, which is plenty for me. If your controller could do field weakening, you could get more at higher speeds.
