Bosch Drive Tested.

o00scorpion00o said:
I think the Bosch is supposed to be a lot more powerful than the Bafang,
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The Bafang is intended as a pedal-assist motor, meaning it's 250W or 350W plus the riders typical watts (about 100W) adds up to give the rider the 400W legs of Lance Armstrong going up hills (without the drugs). I have not tried the Bosch, so can't compare, but I have purchased two MAC motors (both 500W, one 36V, the other 48V) and I can report that the Bafang is a different experience than the MAC. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish:

  • If the objective is to build what in effect is an electric off-road trail motorcycle (or a lightweight, better-looking on-street moped), then the MAC motor is the way to go. They have gobs of torque, go up to 50kph without an effort, are robust and because they are Chinese made, cost a lot less than the German equivalent. In addition, perhaps uniquely in the Chinese market, they are sold by Paul (cell man), an Englishman, who understands western buyers. He keeps his margins thin, gives outstanding service, and tailors his products to his enthusiast audience (a lot of whom are on this forum). Buying from native Chinese, even ones with a basic mastery of English is an exercise in frustration. They sell what is on the shelf (without inspecting the unit sent out), cannot give guidance and for the most part do not stand behind their product if it is defective (or not until one applies a great deal of pressure). Paul is different; he makes good batteries and he backs his motors and controllers. He tests all the gear that goes out and he provides good advice when it is needed.
  • If the objective is to add power to an ordinary bicycle riding in ordinary conditions - like going to town on a commute or weekend coffee where the hills in between result the bike rusting in the garage because one takes the car, the Bafang BBS is a game changer. It flattens the hills, but just as you have to pedal on the flat, with the Bafang you have to pedal up the hills. It appears to be well made, something that is not always the case with Chinese products. Bafang is big in Europe and it is clear that they are listening to that market... mature adults riding bikes in cities and on country roads in dress clothing where the roads were built for horses and soon clogged if the wider car is used.
However, the main difference between Bafang and Bosch is availability. You can buy one motor, whereas Bosche is going for the manufacturer market.
 
greenspark said:
  • If the objective is to build what in effect is an electric off-road trail motorcycle (or a lightweight, better-looking on-street moped), then the MAC motor is the way to go. They have gobs of torque, go up to 50kph without an effort, are robust and because they are Chinese made, cost a lot less than the German equivalent.
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  • Absolutely couldn't agree more, for anyone looking to electrify their bike and do 30 mph the mac is a fantastic motor. And costs a lot less than a bike with a Bosch motor.

    greenspark said:
    However, the main difference between Bafang and Bosch is availability. You can buy one motor, whereas Bosche is going for the manufacturer market.
    Click to expand...

    I would imaging the thought never entered anyone's heads in Bosch to offer their motor as an after market add on, this isn't what Bosch do, they usually only deal with major auto makers and so offering after market kits without anywhere to offer warranty repair etc might be part of the reason.

    Electric bikes are selling better than cars in the E.U which is significant and seemingly they can't make the motors quick enough.

    Another possible reason is maybe they are designing a motor to take advantage of the non E.U power limits ?

    But the main difference I think is the Bosch and how smooth it operates, the torque sensor is truly fantastic and is brilliant to ride, it's more of a bike for a true cyclist that needs assistance for hills, wind etc.
 
geckocycles said:
I am a bike manufacturer for over 30 years and want to build a bike around the Bosch drive but sadly they only sell in large quantities and they won't respond to me after telling me that. No word on how many units must be ordered or what investment is needed. I just don't understand why it is so hard to get even a email from let alone any product for small frame builders to get the US E-Bike movement going. 500 units seems to be the minimum order to have a custom integrated BB drive from other MFG's but still they don't reply back when I ask how much is the investment needing to be.
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That's bad that they can't even reply properly, I'm told they can't make enough of these motors as electric bikes are now outselling cars in the E.U maybe they can't provide so many more motors ?

Maybe they are working on a motor for the U.S to take advantage of the higher power limit ?

geckocycles said:
I am completely sold on a mid drive at this point and mostly the integrated BB designs. The Optibike is great too but not bike path legal. They are located just a few miles from me. I spoke to the production manager at length last week. Waiting to hear back from the owner on me helping with some R&D for them.
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I'm completely sold on them too and I can't wait for my bike to arrive.
 
I am a bike manufacturer for over 30 years and want to build a bike around the Bosch drive
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Hi Geckocycles

I did some frame building also in the past and still involved making my own stuff now in a different field. Funny how the majors could care less about the smalls. Take it as a pass to "KICK THEIR ASS". They will not be paying attention to what you are doing, and all the while you will be obsoleting their design that they invested tons into.

I had the same situation here, with a major cutting me off from supply due to their internal marketing changes. This was after years of promoting and bringing their product into my market. They were looking for me to create more loyal customers out of a base of folks that a significant number of had been having quality issues with their product designs and were not responding in a suitable manner.

Fast forward a few years: They are after me now on several products I developed on my own that they have not a clue how / where or what to make it out of. They keep offering to buy large quantities. I tell them sorry, I am not interested in selling to them. Word on the street is they are thinking of getting out of the market now. A few other bigs, are in for some serious competition soon also. Same story.

If you do decide to get into it with them, make sure you lock down all of your developments in copy write, "fine print", "patent pending" etc. They have a habit of thinking anything you do will be theirs for the taking.

best wishes
 
Oh man am I having bad luck with this E-bay idiot or what ?

He's looking for an additional 295 Euro's to ship the bike as it said when I bought it 39.90 Euro's to Ireland.

So that's his problem right ? he should have checked first ?

So I'm going to tell him to ship it today or give me a full refund.

I'm pissed now as I was supposed to have it today or tomorrow.

I gave him every chance at this stage. I paid on the 29th of June.
 
I got my Girlfriend to translate as I suppose I should have, he got the courier and paid but asked nicely if I would contribute!

What do ye think ?

295 euro's ? how much if any ?
 
I would have refunded you. Been in the situation, and the only one that wins is the shipping company and all the associated pirates. Chances of making anyone happy is poor, and most likely you will not deal with them again regardless of what they did. If they are purposely showing a low cost on shipping just to make a sale, that is different. Most times with ebay, the calculators are way way off and no way to change them other than notes in the ad print. Hopefully they learn and say so clearly on the ads from here in, that international shipping based on size/weight/country so you can get your own idea on actual cost through the shipping companies calculator.
 
He shipped it, so I guess I win at the end of the day, I'm not going to pay him anything extra maybe next time he will check.
 
speedmd said:
I am a bike manufacturer for over 30 years and want to build a bike around the Bosch drive
Click to expand...

Hi Geckocycles

I did some frame building also in the past and still involved making my own stuff now in a different field. Funny how the majors could care less about the smalls. Take it as a pass to "KICK THEIR ASS". They will not be paying attention to what you are doing, and all the while you will be obsoleting their design that they invested tons into.

I had the same situation here, with a major cutting me off from supply due to their internal marketing changes. This was after years of promoting and bringing their product into my market. They were looking for me to create more loyal customers out of a base of folks that a significant number of had been having quality issues with their product designs and were not responding in a suitable manner.

Fast forward a few years: They are after me now on several products I developed on my own that they have not a clue how / where or what to make it out of. They keep offering to buy large quantities. I tell them sorry, I am not interested in selling to them. Word on the street is they are thinking of getting out of the market now. A few other bigs, are in for some serious competition soon also. Same story.

If you do decide to get into it with them, make sure you lock down all of your developments in copy write, "fine print", "patent pending" etc. They have a habit of thinking anything you do will be theirs for the taking.

best wishes
Click to expand...
I think lots gets lost in translation. I get reply's, but they don't really answer or maybe understand the questions or what I am or trying to do.
The tq-group, manufactures of the Clean Mobile system, said they need a 500 pc/yr order and will custom make what I want. They have no single units available as they are all built to order. No word from them on what the minimum investment is needed to continue for some reason. What if I was willing to place a 500 pc order? Who would order that many pieces without first testing one? I'm not willing to take that kind of risk nor would any investor that has half a brain.

I guess I can build one from scratch. I have a full machine shop and can make anything I have a mind too. Just trying to not re-invent the wheel to help keep costs down. No wonder why Optibike and others are $10000 or more. I was the manager of an industrial electric motor shop. Guess it is time to get in touch with them and figure out something made in the USA in smaller quantities for development purposes and see what goes on from there. They also make several electronic devices that they have patents on.

I'm done wasting my time with over the pond stuff.
 
Guess it is time to get in touch with them and figure out something made in the USA in smaller quantities for development purposes and see what goes on from there. They also make several electronic devices that they have patents on.

I'm done wasting my time with over the pond stuff.
Click to expand...

Perfect! As I told one of my former suppliers, "I see that you are trying to teach me a lesson, but unfortunately for you it is not the one you were hoping I'd learn". :p
 
speedmd said:
Guess it is time to get in touch with them and figure out something made in the USA in smaller quantities for development purposes and see what goes on from there. They also make several electronic devices that they have patents on.

I'm done wasting my time with over the pond stuff.
Click to expand...

Perfect! As I told one of my former suppliers, "I see that you are trying to teach me a lesson, but unfortunately for you it is not the one you were not hoping I'd learn". :p
Click to expand...

LOL.
Never been much of a follower anyway and I have lots of time on my hands if I put my Suzuki Samurai projects on hold. I was just trying to get something going ASAP so I can ride again.
 
@geckocycles:

I was the manager of an industrial electric motor shop. Guess it is time to get in touch with them and figure out something made in the USA in smaller quantities for development purposes and see what goes on from there. They also make several electronic devices that they have patents on.

I'm done wasting my time with over the pond stuff.
Click to expand...

AWESOME! I was hoping for this! Panasonic, Bosch, and Bafang can't possibly be the only people on the planet who can make motors for ebikes!

I looked into EcoSpeed, but WHEW, that's a thousand bucks more than what I want to pay.

Please let us know what you come up with.
 
If I have to start from scratch I will not be making anything that will be a kit for general consumers. The noise of those kits is unacceptable. BNG, Ecospeed and what ever of that type.
I am leaning toward a integrated BBM system or maybe even the RC drives with worm drive. I am not too fond of the looks of the RC systems though. I do think that a RC type can be made to be more efficient. All of these will have to have a frame made to accommodate the drive and will not be an inexpensive system. Made in USA in small runs or one off brings costs way way up. There is no way I can afford to mass produce to get the price point down. I run into this with most of my products and usually just end up making a few for me and a select few, usually my friends who understand the costs involved in producing small quantities in the US.
The Optibike type BBM needs to have a huge battery being the efficiency of the motor is not going to be very good. I would have to lean towards a AC motor drive for that type and see what I can come up with. Got to talk to my engineers at IEM where I worked.
This will be my last post here as not to hijack the thread anymore than I have. I really wish Bosch would of worked with me.
 
This is supposed to be the new Bosch Motor !

nieuwe+bosch+motor+2014.jpg


Supposed to be 60nm.
 
WOW! I'm coveting that! That system looks sleek and mean!

That power cord looks awefully thin, though... Hopefully Bosch will beef that up with thicker wiring to keep the IR loss to a minimum.

Let's keep our fingers crossed so that Bosch's manufacturing can keep up with demand. Also, it'd be nice if they would be willing to sell onesie-twosies to hobbyists.
 
AEG is also releasing a mid-drive. I thing it can be fitted to normal bike frames. looks very interesting. google it.
 
Lebowski said:
o00scorpion00o said:
AFAIK it messes up the speedo readings and obviously odometer that would annoy me.
Click to expand...
then you have to devide the pulses by 1.6 and consider the speedo to be in Miles...
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Yeah but it would drive me mad. I'd like the Odometer to be accurate. I'd hate to stick another speedo on the bike.

It would be great if someone could hack the software and set the light switch on the HMI to turn the hack on and off.

Sometimes it would be nice to have the extra speed.
 
are 250w and 350w one and the same bosch motor - the only difference is the software?
 
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