Boston-Power Swing 5300 Li-ion cell test
- Thread starter thunderheart
- Start date
That sounds pretty terrible to me. My entire pack of EIG NMC cells, 14s2p, is only about 43milliohms according to the CA3.1's estimate!
Not according to the info in posts not far above yours. :?Pajda said:
Pajda
10 kW
Today I made test with a magnet and Swing5300 have non-magnetic! case. Probably really made from aluminium as is stated in one of its datasheets. Only magnetic material on Swing5300 cell is minus pole terminal.
Pajda ...have you tried welding or soldering the Swing? I actually got a couple to test and see. I do not have a welder at this time ...but soldering was no problem using a good iron (Hako) flux and Kester 44 solder. I am also not as adept at charging and testing as Thunderheart ....so right now I have to go with his extensive testing.
realfastbug
1 µW
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2018
- Messages
- 1
Hi,
at my previous job we built a ton of packs with these boston power swing 4400 and 5300 cells. I forget the name of the welder we used but it worked really well. We did have to use slightly different settings for each polarity. They are great cells to work with. Speaking of, I have an entire pallet of brand new boston power swing4400 cells that I bought for an ev project. I gave up on that project and am looking to sell the cells. I will need to recount what I have but I believe I have enough to do 2 compact cars with big packs. I also have some examples of welded packs and the foils we used.
I just looked and we used an old Miyachi welder. I think I know of someone that has one to sell too!
at my previous job we built a ton of packs with these boston power swing 4400 and 5300 cells. I forget the name of the welder we used but it worked really well. We did have to use slightly different settings for each polarity. They are great cells to work with. Speaking of, I have an entire pallet of brand new boston power swing4400 cells that I bought for an ev project. I gave up on that project and am looking to sell the cells. I will need to recount what I have but I believe I have enough to do 2 compact cars with big packs. I also have some examples of welded packs and the foils we used.
I just looked and we used an old Miyachi welder. I think I know of someone that has one to sell too!
Supermax2829
1 µW
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2018
- Messages
- 1
Hi,
I was reading through the forum about Swing 5300 that I use in one of my product.
One of you mentioned there is an office of Queen Battery in Europe. Could you give me the contact info for Queen Battery in Europe?
Thanks!
I was reading through the forum about Swing 5300 that I use in one of my product.
One of you mentioned there is an office of Queen Battery in Europe. Could you give me the contact info for Queen Battery in Europe?
Thanks!
hemo
100 W
Messiah said:
Yes, same voltage characteristic's, no special charger required.
Cells are rated for 13a peak each or = to 6.5a peak rated 18650.
Life cycle is supposed to be 3000 cycles to 70% DOD, I believe.
thunderheart
100 W
I think they have a warehouse not an office. Drop a message to their e-mail.Supermax2829 said:
ElectricGod
10 MW
I was just PM'd by HeadRC about buying Boston cells. I wasn't annoyed, but i thought I'd post what I just sent to him as a reply.
I don't see these cells as compelling compared to just about any 18650 that's 2600mah or better. In order to make the greater weight, size and lower capacity compelling, they need to be much cheaper than 30Q's and NCR18650B per mAh.
The Boston cell has about 10% more internal volume than do 2 18650 cells. Comparing to 2 30Q's at 6000mah, the Boston cells ought to be around 6600mah.
My reply in italics:
Ive looked at these cells before. There's reasons why I didn't buy them.
They are 2X the size of an 18650 with less than double the capacity. The 30Q is 3000mah and can deliver similar current as the Boston cell. 2 30Q's in parallel is 6000mah for the same space as a single Boston cell at 5300mah.
What would make them compelling is is a VERY good price per cell. I paid $4 per cell for the Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh in a quantity of 600 cells. That works out to .11 cents per mAh.
What would I get for the Boston cells? Last time I checked, the price difference wasn't great enough to make me switch to a larger form factor with lower capacity.
Since I bought 600 cells at 3400mah each, that's a total of 2,040,000mah.
In 5300mah cells that capacity works out to 384 cells that are 2X larger than an 18650 and uses 22% more space and weight.
Those Panasonic cells I bought will get used for a 20S20P pack and a 20S10P pack. 20P is 68,000mah. That's 12P in Boston cells at 5300mah, but they take up the space of a 24P pack made of 18650's. 24P in 3400mah 18650's gets me 81,600 mah. You can see the issue with using Boston cells. The are bigger, heavier and have less capacity for the same weight and volume of even the 30Q. They are equivalent to two 2650mah 18650's and nobody is using 18650's of that capacity anymore.
For 384 cells, what would I pay? This is the only way Boston cells make sense...much lower cost per mAh. In every other way, they are not as good as lots of 18650 options.
I've had this exact conversation regarding LTO vs the 30Q. LTO is much worse than the Boston cells for capacity for weight and volume.
LTO has 3 big advantages:
1. Excellent cold weather performance
2. 30,000 charge cycles
3. highly resistant to abuse and 100% discharge.
So then if you can live with the size and weight and can get them epicly cheap, which I did at .007 cents per mah, then they got really compelling assuming that the weight and size doesn't trample on other design goals too much.
Design goals and cost commonly mean compromises in one direction or the other. $2400 worth of 18650 cells is a chunk of money! If I had bought a complete pack instead of building it myself, that would probably be $3400. For the 20S20P pack, size and weight are a significant issue. I don't have the space to use anything but highest capacity cells I can reasonably get. Among my design goals is 60 miles of range while maintaining 40-50mph. Hence the need for a light weight, compact, high capacity pack. This build cant waste space or weight. For something else where these are lesser concerns those LTO's worked out fine. Same for Boston cells...they have their place. BUT, at the end of the day, the biggest thing in every bodies mind is always what get the most bang for the buck?
I don't see these cells as compelling compared to just about any 18650 that's 2600mah or better. In order to make the greater weight, size and lower capacity compelling, they need to be much cheaper than 30Q's and NCR18650B per mAh.
The Boston cell has about 10% more internal volume than do 2 18650 cells. Comparing to 2 30Q's at 6000mah, the Boston cells ought to be around 6600mah.
My reply in italics:
Ive looked at these cells before. There's reasons why I didn't buy them.
They are 2X the size of an 18650 with less than double the capacity. The 30Q is 3000mah and can deliver similar current as the Boston cell. 2 30Q's in parallel is 6000mah for the same space as a single Boston cell at 5300mah.
What would make them compelling is is a VERY good price per cell. I paid $4 per cell for the Panasonic NCR18650B 3400mAh in a quantity of 600 cells. That works out to .11 cents per mAh.
What would I get for the Boston cells? Last time I checked, the price difference wasn't great enough to make me switch to a larger form factor with lower capacity.
Since I bought 600 cells at 3400mah each, that's a total of 2,040,000mah.
In 5300mah cells that capacity works out to 384 cells that are 2X larger than an 18650 and uses 22% more space and weight.
Those Panasonic cells I bought will get used for a 20S20P pack and a 20S10P pack. 20P is 68,000mah. That's 12P in Boston cells at 5300mah, but they take up the space of a 24P pack made of 18650's. 24P in 3400mah 18650's gets me 81,600 mah. You can see the issue with using Boston cells. The are bigger, heavier and have less capacity for the same weight and volume of even the 30Q. They are equivalent to two 2650mah 18650's and nobody is using 18650's of that capacity anymore.
For 384 cells, what would I pay? This is the only way Boston cells make sense...much lower cost per mAh. In every other way, they are not as good as lots of 18650 options.
I've had this exact conversation regarding LTO vs the 30Q. LTO is much worse than the Boston cells for capacity for weight and volume.
LTO has 3 big advantages:
1. Excellent cold weather performance
2. 30,000 charge cycles
3. highly resistant to abuse and 100% discharge.
So then if you can live with the size and weight and can get them epicly cheap, which I did at .007 cents per mah, then they got really compelling assuming that the weight and size doesn't trample on other design goals too much.
Design goals and cost commonly mean compromises in one direction or the other. $2400 worth of 18650 cells is a chunk of money! If I had bought a complete pack instead of building it myself, that would probably be $3400. For the 20S20P pack, size and weight are a significant issue. I don't have the space to use anything but highest capacity cells I can reasonably get. Among my design goals is 60 miles of range while maintaining 40-50mph. Hence the need for a light weight, compact, high capacity pack. This build cant waste space or weight. For something else where these are lesser concerns those LTO's worked out fine. Same for Boston cells...they have their place. BUT, at the end of the day, the biggest thing in every bodies mind is always what get the most bang for the buck?
Pajda
10 kW
Hmm.. it seems to me that you summarized well known things about Boston Swing. :wink: Yes, the main reason to go with Boston is the price per kWh. One of my favorite suppliers actually offers Boston 5300mAh ca 5% cheaper than NCR18650B 3400mAh in low volume orders.
ElectricGod
10 MW
Pajda said:
OK...who is this seller? They need to beat .11 cents per mAh significantly.
thunderheart
100 W
ElectricGod said:
3000 cycles at 80% DOD
ElectricGod
10 MW
thunderheart said:
Just a smidge out of context...
"What would I get for the Boston cells? Last time I checked, the price difference wasn't great enough to make me switch to a larger form factor with lower capacity."
That was a question about price.
ElectricGod
10 MW
I'd like to know where to get these cells so I can make an actual price comparison.
The LTO's I bought were a lot larger and heavier than pretty much anything else in lithium, BUT they were incredibly cheap too.
Boston cells need to put other LION cells to shame to make them compelling.
AKA...where the heck to I find them for sale?
The LTO's I bought were a lot larger and heavier than pretty much anything else in lithium, BUT they were incredibly cheap too.
Boston cells need to put other LION cells to shame to make them compelling.
AKA...where the heck to I find them for sale?
OK ...I certainly will respond here. Since one issue with the BP batteries is a focus on price. I will sell BP Swing 5300's in quantities of 84 or more to folks on this forum for the price of $3.75 per cell, which includes shipping in the lower 48 states. (International shipping or places like U.S. territories will require shipping costs.) So that comes to around .07 per mAh.
Now let's address some of the critique on the BP batteries:
The BP's have good cycle ratings and 50% of the parallel connections. The only real drawback that I personally see to the BPs at this pricing is possibly some challenges in configuring a pack because their dimensions are like 2x18650 as you noted. I don't agree on the weight or size . Two of the Panasonic NCR18650B's like Electricgod used on a build are 95 grams while BP is 93.5 grams. Two of the Panasonic NCR18650B are 37.26mm wide by 65.08 mm long while one of the BP is 37.3 wide and 64.8mm long.
And then there are other good things about the BP batteries ...like cycle life and heat dissipation.
So if anyone is interested I think I can save you some money at this time ...and I believe the BP batteries are under rated for what they provide. But this is dependent on the BP's I have at this time ....when they are gone they are gone.
One last comment ....the folks I have sold the BP's to have found them to be very robust and take a beating. But of course there are a lot of choices out there regarding batteries. I just feel the BP's are under rated for what they provide.
Now let's address some of the critique on the BP batteries:
The BP's have good cycle ratings and 50% of the parallel connections. The only real drawback that I personally see to the BPs at this pricing is possibly some challenges in configuring a pack because their dimensions are like 2x18650 as you noted. I don't agree on the weight or size . Two of the Panasonic NCR18650B's like Electricgod used on a build are 95 grams while BP is 93.5 grams. Two of the Panasonic NCR18650B are 37.26mm wide by 65.08 mm long while one of the BP is 37.3 wide and 64.8mm long.
And then there are other good things about the BP batteries ...like cycle life and heat dissipation.
So if anyone is interested I think I can save you some money at this time ...and I believe the BP batteries are under rated for what they provide. But this is dependent on the BP's I have at this time ....when they are gone they are gone.
One last comment ....the folks I have sold the BP's to have found them to be very robust and take a beating. But of course there are a lot of choices out there regarding batteries. I just feel the BP's are under rated for what they provide.
Yes ...that would be matt912836 and he is just one of those that has told me after a good bit of trial the BP batteries are performing very very well. Again, yes there are a lot of good choices. But I repeat, the Boston Power batteries should be one to be considered. Even if I did not have a quantity to sell, I would still be considering them personally for my own battery building because they have proven to be a very good choice for many applications.
ElectricGod
10 MW
Headrc said:
Right on page one, first post you show this as the dimensions.
Dimensions: 37.2 x 64.8 x 19.1mm
An 18650 is 18mm x 65mm.
2x18=36mm That's 2 18650's side by side which is smaller than 37.2mm.
65mm vs 84.8mm...not worth mentioning.
18mm vs 19.1mm again larger than an 18650.
AKA a single BP cell is slightly larger than 2 18650's.
That's the numbers...not arguing, just pointing out that they are what they are and they are pretty close to the same.
Heat dissipation ought to be in favor of the 18650, but since the surface area difference between 2 18650s and 1 BP cell is not greatly different, this is probably negligibly different.
Cell weight has a lot to do with the density of the materials packed inside the shell. I'd say that Panasonic cells weigh more because there is more packed inside.
However at the price of .07 cents per mah or $3.75 per cell...well that's a great price! I'll be considering these cells the next time I need to make a pack. Like the LTO's I bought, at the price, size and weight suddenly became a lot less important. My next build will not have really tight constraints on pack size. These cells could work well there.
I would think that large aluminum case is a pretty big deal too , since it dissipates heat to the outside of the cell much faster than a steel case would . If they weren't tabbed , I wouldn't even bother fooling with trying to weld one together , but since they are factory tabbed with nickel, it's a non issue .
Hillhater
100 TW
ElectricGod said:
Cycle life is a major factor in a true full cost comparason.
A cell that has 2-3 times the cycle life , is effectively half or one third the cost !
......unless you are using them in a “one shot” device like a missile ! :lol:
