CYC PHOTON

[Atak_Snajpera]

Ive been through 2 motors now in short order. I just can't seem to find a proper modern successor to the BBSHD. Something lighter with torque sensing, but still as dependable.

Here's where I think my problem is with the Photon. I don't have it restricted, so at the beginning of the climb it will put down 1000+ watts, but then the temps skyrocket, and it just doesn't have the ability to cool back down. That first little boost at the beginning just wrecked the whole rest of your climb. Even when the motor was not stressed, the motor temp was between 54C to 64C. In my opinion, the skeptics where right... this motor cannot shed heat. I think limiting it to 500W max might help prevent the runaway heat build that will ruin the rest of your ride.

I was telling that in this topic long time ago. CYC PHOTON is just a 500W motor. Everything above that value is just a marketing BS. If you want something with much better heat dissipation then take a look at Toseven DM02. However if you want true BBSHD successor then DM01 would be a better choice. By the way. Latest firmware is great now!

 

[neptronix]

That motor looks like ( and weighs as much as ) a BBSHD. For the low price of 290 extra, you get a torque sensor.



Not much innovation in mid drives going on over there in China lately.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

That motor looks like ( and weighs as much as ) a BBSHD. For the low price of 290 extra, you get a torque sensor.

View attachment 353195

Not much innovation in mid drives going on over there in China lately.

DM01 1000W is cheaper ($740)

https://pl.aliexpress.com/item/1005006163295917.html?pdp_npi=4%40dis%21PLN%212%C2%A0409%2C47%20z%C5%82%212%C2%A0409%2C47%20z%C5%82%21%21%214339.05%214339.05%21%40211b805417161911623323387dc3df%2112000038198228087%21sh01%21PL%212742811894%21&spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.productList_2008419017889.1005006163295917&gatewayAdapt=glo2pol

 

[neptronix]

Yeah.. heavier than the BBSHD and an additional $200 for torque sensing.. and it's from a newer company that is still figuring things out.

Worse Q factor problem than most drives, 212MM wide BB on a 68mm... that's insane.

I think the Chinese manufacturers didn't get the memo that we're looking for something better than the BBSHD, not worse

 

[smitty2k1]

Yeah.. heavier than the BBSHD and an additional $200 for torque sensing.. and it's from a newer company that is still figuring things out.

Worse Q factor problem than most drives, 212MM wide BB on a 68mm... that's insane.

I think the Chinese manufacturers didn't get the memo that we're looking for something better than the BBSHD, not worse

What would you suggest for a torque sensing mid drive diy?

 

[nervagon]

I'm pretty sure that the Bikee Lightest motor would have no problem pumping out 1000W up that same route the whole way. There were a lot of questionable decisions by Bikee on that motor kit, but in my brief testing while it was on my bike, it was very powerful and shed heat very well. It's just a shame that it is so loud, and needs to be mounted half-way up the downtube to pair it with a 42T chainring.

I've been on a couple group rides with the Photon, and the Photon is the loudest motor of the group. I can't even imagine how weird it would be with the Bikee Lightest emitting all that motor noise while everyone else is quietly humming along. And it really does matter, because our last ride took us down some trails that have banned ebikes. This is why I want the most stealth build possible.

I don't think I will be taking the Photon to the next ride this week, because it is a long trek up the canyon, and I know the photon will fall back to low power and I'll be left in the dust by the rest of the group. I can keep pace with a BBSHD with 1000W motor + 300W human power. I can put down 300W for a while, but without a strong motor backing me up, keeping pace with powerful ebikes is really tough. I guess if I join the next ride, it will be on my BBSHD cargo bike.

I am pretty certain that 300W me + plus 750W-1000W Bikee Lightest would keep up with the group just fine... but again, that horrid noise. Hard to not draw attention when you sound like a surron/cyclone.

As for the TOSEVEN drives, I'm just not interested. They clearly are following crusty, 10-year-old design templates. There is zero innovation or benefit over the tried and true BBSHD. Sure it has torque sensing, but it is just OK by all accounts, and now the BBSHD has torque sensing (Bafang M635). But is it worth it? Does the CANBUS and new connectors, locked down firmware, and lack of accesseries and support make the M635 DOA? My Luna BBSHD came with PAS tuned pretty well out of the box, but I would still prefer torque sensing for better ride experience and ditching the shift sensor and brake cutoffs.

The DIY mid drive scene is very stagnant ATM.

As for Q-factor, 200mm is comfortable for me, but I hate offset, lack of symmetry.

 

[raylo32]

You're asking the wrong guys. They are old hub motor guys or folks who want to charge up 10%+ grades for miles at full speed in the dead of summer. Photon is a really good light weight mid drive. TSDZ2 and such work well, too. These both work fine for general purpose rolling riding... even quite fast riding. But no, you won't make it up a 2 mile 10%+ grade at 20 mph in summer without some thermal throttling. No big deal, IMO. You just need to understand what you are looking for it to do and what the limits are. BBS motors are good, too, and might be more suitable for harder use cases... but they are heavy and just now starting to make some with torque sensors, which are a requirement for some of us. The newer ToSeven DM motors look promising but they don't have a large user base or much history yet.

What would you suggest for a torque sensing mid drive diy?

 

[neptronix]

What would you suggest for a torque sensing mid drive diy?

I honestly don't have any recommendations. The only thing better than the cheap chinese mid drive is the bleeding edge drive ( revel propulsion kit, lightest kit, bikeOn Cassette drive ), and in all of these cases you're taking a risk on a new thing nobody's tried.

The only way we are going to see actually innovation is for more people to risk being the guinea pig for v1 of what the innovators are building.

The only other route i have in mind is making a BB holder for small to mid sized geared motors. Compared to cheap chinese mids, this would make for a better mid drive at roughly the same size weight, fix the pedal offset problems, and improve efficiency. The only thing that would suck is that it would lack the stealth factor.

You're asking the wrong guys. They are old hub motor guys or folks who want to charge up 10%+ grades for miles at full speed in the dead of summer.

That's a pretty incorrect assumption about ES ( most discussion on this forum is mid-drive centric today ), and also, about me ( i have a long list of valid reasons to have used hubs until now, and i've never been a guy that asserts hub motors are always the best, it always depends on the application )

 

[nervagon]

You're asking the wrong guys. They are old hub motor guys or folks who want to charge up 10%+ grades for miles at full speed in the dead of summer. Photon is a really good light weight mid drive. TSDZ2 and such work well, too. These both work fine for general purpose rolling riding... even quite fast riding. But no, you won't make it up a 2 mile 10%+ grade at 20 mph in summer without some thermal throttling. No big deal, IMO. You just need to understand what you are looking for it to do and what the limits are. BBS motors are good, too, and might be more suitable for harder use cases... but they are just now starting to make some with torque sensors, which are a requirement for some of us. The newer ToSeven DM motors look promising but they don't have a large user base or much history yet.

Why are you 2X exaggerating my posts? It was a 1 mile climb up a 10% grade at 8mph, and the motor hit 89.9C degrees and throttled down to 350W on a 75F mild day. If you need to exaggerate things to defend the Photon, that is fanboy behavior. If this had happened when it is in the upper 90s to 100F here in San Gabriel valley, that would not be surprising, but it was not "dead of summer" as you put it. I don't believe you and I have ever had a beef, so this seems uncalled for. If you have a Photon and love it, that's fantastic. I'm glad it works for you.

And long 10% climbs is precisely why you would choose a mid drive over a hub motor. If a mid drive can't handle that... well, the motor sucks IMO.

 

[raylo32]

Mainly because I have done similar and haven't seen the same behavior. I haven't done a long 10%er, but have done long 5%ers at much higher speeds and in high east coast summer ambients and not reached such high internal temps nor had thermal throttling. But if I ever run into that problem that I'll just go take my Triumph Tiger out.

And I am not a "fanboy". I am just a reasonably satisfied user that understands what this is designed to do and what the alternatives are. You can go back to you unicorn search for something that will climb 10% at 30 mph all day long and weigh 5 pounds. But, hint: unicorns don't exist.

Why are you 2X exaggerating my posts?

 

[Mongo]

I went back and checked my route where the motor hit 90C. It was about a 1 mile climb at roughly 10% grade. Something my BBSHD could do without issue, even on very hot days.

Hi @nervagon, do you have any idea how hot your BBSHD got on a similar climb, internally? My impression has been a stock BBSHD will go until it can't - because it fails/melts. Well, unless you've got added-on temperature monitoring, or the Luna V2 controller, or the like.

How many motor systems in this price range will safely tolerate such a climb? At teen speeds, what's going to draw off the generated heat? I've tried to run the BBSHD numbers through the Grin tool, but I don't know the correct controller parameters to use for the BBSHD. I ran my RH212 (full throttle) through on a 10% grade, and it says the party's over in ~20 minutes - for that big hunk of metal.

I think the Photon does what it can, with the mass and overtemp protection that it has, and it has a (niche?) place in our DIY world - especially for those wanting a Bosch-like pedaling experience on a DIY bike. Expensive - yup. Good for every situation - nope.

You also mentioned the noise - mine are pretty quiet, and I'd put my Photons between well broken in BBS02 and BBSHD motors I have (BBSHD being the quietest). At full load my BBS02 and Photon motors have a bit of a whine the BBSHDs don't have.

I'm sorry that the Photon didn't work out for your needs.

 

[nervagon]

And I am not a "fanboy". I am just a reasonably satisfied user that understands what this is designed to do and what the alternatives are. You can go back to you unicorn search for something that will climb 10% at 30 mph all day long and weigh 5 pounds. But, hint: unicorns don't exist.

You literally just did it again. When did I say that I am looking "for something that will climb 10% at 30 mph all day long and weigh 5 pounds?"

 

[nervagon]

Hi @nervagon, do you have any idea how hot your BBSHD got on a similar climb, internally? My impression has been a stock BBSHD will go until it can't - because it fails/melts. Well, unless you've got added-on temperature monitoring, or the Luna V2 controller, or the like.

How many motor systems in this price range will safely tolerate such a climb? At teen speeds, what's going to draw off the generated heat? I've tried to run the BBSHD numbers through the Grin tool, but I don't know the correct controller parameters to use for the BBSHD. I ran my RH212 (full throttle) through on a 10% grade, and it says the party's over in ~20 minutes - for that big hunk of metal.

I think the Photon does what it can, with the mass and overtemp protection that it has, and it has a (niche?) place in our DIY world - especially for those wanting a Bosch-like pedaling experience on a DIY bike. Expensive - yup. Good for every situation - nope.

You also mentioned the noise - mine are pretty quiet, and I'd put my Photons between well broken in BBS02 and BBSHD motors I have (BBSHD being the quietest). At full load my BBS02 and Photon motors have a bit of a whine the BBSHDs don't have.

I have ridden the same routes on my BBSHD "in the dead of summer" without issue.

As for noise, my Photon was louder than a bafang ultra on the ride. I don't know if it had a peek drive gear. But someone commented that they liked the sound of photon. It was noticeable, but not unpleasant like the Bikee Lightest is.

The BBSHD won't overheat in such a scenario:



Maybe I'm just permanently spoiled by the BBSHD?

 

[nervagon]

Damn, I really wish I had ridden this route with the Bikee Lightest before I uninstalled it, because I am pretty confident that 4lb motor would have charged right up it.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Yeah.. heavier than the BBSHD and an additional $200 for torque sensing.. and it's from a newer company that is still figuring things out.

Worse Q factor problem than most drives, 212MM wide BB on a 68mm... that's insane.

I think the Chinese manufacturers didn't get the memo that we're looking for something better than the BBSHD, not worse

Compare apples to apples.
Bafang m625 $885
Toseven dm01 1000W $740
Dm01 750W is even cheaper.
Btw. Those motors are mainly limited by controller do 750W will give more than 1000W.

Toseven motors are on the market for over a year now. Latest firmware works great.

 

[hindesite]

What would you suggest for a torque sensing mid drive diy?

Photon.

Nothing else comes close. Especially for modern MTBs, which none of the Bafangs, Tosevens and Tongshens etc will fit.

But pay attention to its intended use - as a DIY equivalent to OTS ebikes (and especially e-MTB) which are expensive, low power and low torque. CYC have explicitly stated their aims with this motor; I don't know why so many people seem to think it should be able to do something else.

CYC nailed their goal perfectly, the problem here is that people think that because the motor is capable of 1500W peak, they can use it to build a bike that they can ride like a Surron. CYC have other motors for that.

Even running at 500W is 2x the output of most e-MTBs, how much do you really need? How long do you want your drive components to last?

Plus, support from CYC is good. I've had mine for over a year, and happened to receive a parcel in the mail this morning that contains some warranty replacement parts.

 

[hindesite]

42t chainring, 50t low gear. As low as i can go. Cadence around 90. Speed 8mph.

There is something off here. In low gear (34,52) on my bike, and very much higher grade, I could run all day without approaching the temps you are seeing. Similar cadence. I posted a video a few pages (26 Feb) back showing this.

CYC PHOTON

It was done until you chimed in. ;-) Wrong topic guys.

endless-sphere.com

 

[nervagon]

There is something off here. In low gear (34,52) on my bike, and very much higher grade, I could run all day without approaching the temps you are seeing. Similar cadence. I posted a video a few pages (26 Feb) back showing this.

CYC PHOTON

It was done until you chimed in. ;-) Wrong topic guys.

endless-sphere.com

Finally some agreement that my use case was perfectly normal and not abuse. Maybe there is something wrong with my Photon. There are some weird issues with the display that I have reported to electrifybike. The voltage reading is .8 to .9 volts too high on the SW102 display, and the entry in the ridecontrol app to change wheel size is just gone, missing on my system. So there are weird glitches in the software/display.

 

[Bengy22]

Btw. Those motors are mainly limited by controller do 750W will give more than 1000W.

I'm not sure if this has changed but I've seen a post from a Toseven rep that claimed it actually was a different motor that carried a 750w rating not just firmware

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I'm not sure if this has changed but I've seen a post from a Toseven rep that claimed it actually was a different motor that carried a 750w rating not just firmware

Controller is limited to 30A.
30A * 48V = ~1.4 kW. Peak motor power is way above nominal 750W rating. Motor is huge and heavy so IT does not overheat like that Tiny cyc photon.

 

[hindesite]

Controller is limited to 30A.
30A * 48V = ~1.4 kW. Peak motor power is way above nominal 750W rating. Motor is huge and heavy so IT does not overheat like that Tiny cyc photon.

Yeah, but it is huge. And heavy. Not everybody wants that.

The Photon, on the other hand...

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Yeah, but it is huge. And heavy. Not everybody wants that.

The Photon, on the other hand...

There is Toseven DM02 4kg

Controller is limited to 15A so
48V * 15A = 720W
So basically a CYC PHOTON level.
However unlike Photon ,DM02 has much better heat dissipation. (Outrunner vs Inrunner). There is no air gap like in photon. Which means better heat transfer on case.

DM02 after climbing

Let's not forget also about price. dm02 is about 3x times cheaper than photon if you include shipping cost , duty and VAT.

 

[raylo32]

The only way I have hit thermal limits with my Photon is by using full throttle in race mode. As I have explained before I have a run on a fairly busy and flat to rolling road where I ride at max pedaling speed on the shoulder, then to work traffic to make a left turn I often need engage the throttle to go faster than I can pedal. In that scenario with a hot motor then asked for full throttle, it won't last long at 1500W. But then, I don't expect it to.

 

[nervagon]

As soon as the weather outside hits 75F I'll hop out to go and hit the same route, but this time with the Photon limited to 700W for the entire duration of the ride. That is 50W under the advertised spec. So if the motor still shits the bed on a mild day while limited 50W under spec, then either I have a broken/defective Photon, or it's just a shit design.

 

[nervagon]

Well, the photon still suffered runaway temps and down-throttled.

Here's my power settings:



and here's my screengrab during my climb:



It is hard capture the throttled power levels because it doesn't stay constant... it bounces around while trying to keep from melting, but the lowest that the motor down-throttled to was 495W.

This is a 500W nominal motor.