CYC PHOTON

My main issue is that I have a mount for a secondary battery, EGO 52V tool battery on the rear rack, and I had it all prewired to be able to swap plugs from the downtube Shark to the EGO. Now that will have to be rewired because of the different motor wire bundle location. If I use one of my 5Ah EGO batteries with the Photon, I'll have to make sure I am in street mode to avoid pulling too many amps. Didn't have that issue with TSDZ2.

I disagree - for me I'd far rather have everything away from the huge pile of rubbish that accumulates near the rear wheel. I have a black frame so any route the wiring takes is fairly unnoticeable. I really like the way CYC have done this.

A friend had a bike trip somewhat ruined because on his Bafang installation the connectors under the BB were damaged during (helicopter :) ) transport.
 
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I also got the 42t ring. I'd really like to fit a 50 on this 26" hardrtail MTB and may give it a try because I can get spun out pedaling. Like my X1 bike, also a 26"er, you can only go so fast pedaling with assist before getting spun out, then throttle for more speed. Not quite sure how this motor will top out yet, however, until I ride tomorrow. I need to measure it and see if the 50 will fit.

Mainly ordered the 42t to keep the chainline straighter on the most used gears just in case when the most of the raiding happens in less hilly roads. 38t would have been easier on the motor, especially with 12-34t cassette and 700c wheels.
Not sure if the chainring will fit the 12 speed chain since it's has been said that not all narrow wide chainrings fit 12 speed chains. Never stumbled upon anyone mentioning it anywhere specifically regarding to CYC chainrings.

I ordered the cyc photon on 9th of May, maybe you ordered yours slightly earlier.
 
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Mainly ordered the 42t to keep the chainline straighter on the most used gears just in case when the most of the raiding happens in less hilly roads. 38t would have been easier on the motor, especially with 12-34t cassette and 700c wheels.
Not sure if the chainring will fit the 12 speed chain since it's has been said that not all narrow wide chainring fit 12 speed chains. Never stumbled upon anyone mentioning it anywhere specifically regarding to CYC chainrings.

I ordered the cyc photon on 9th of May, maybe you ordered yours slightly earlier.
I have the 34T chainring because it was the only one that would fit, and the chainline is perfect, right on spec for Boost 148. The Photon doesn't have the same chainline issues that Bafang have, they designed the system to have correct chainline for 34T (unlike Bafang and TSDZ).

The 34T chainring I have is narrow wide and fits 12 speed perfectly (BTW AFAIK 12, 11 and 10sp chains all have the same interior dimensions and should all fit). The 34T chainring has clearance required to fit the proprietary Shimano HG chains so should work with KMC, SRAM, Shimano etc. and I would assume CYC will have thought about this for the larger chainrings, most of their other design choices have been pretty good.

CYC PHOTON

wp-1680072114775-jpg.331991


That's Shimano HG chain, you can see where the problems would occur and why CYC have accommodated it.
 
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I got out for a quick test ride and I am impressed so far. Very smooth, *very* quiet. Pretty fast, too. And the throttle is actually useful, unlike TSDZ2. Turns out the old brake lever sensors work with Photon, they were just disabled by default in the app. Simple to correct and they work perfectly. I suspect any brake sensors would work because the app even has a setting to invert the signal if you have ones of the wrong flavor.

Street mode is pretty useless, IMO. Default speed limit is 16 mph. I go faster on my pedal bikes. You can only raise that to 19mph. But if you want less assist you can just use level 1 in race mode and not have that absurd speed limit.

One problem specific to my bike is the motor housing pinches the rear shift cable. I am making a 3D print standoff with a groove for the cable. I'll glue that to the down tube then rotate the motor up against that.

I like the small simple 102 display... very functional and shows lots of data with a few button presses. I like the app so far, too. Much better than the old BAC app.

I plan to head out for a 30 miler or so tomorrow in our rolling hills. TSDZ2 handled this stuff easily so I don't expect any less from the Photon.
 
IMO you'll be fine with the 42t. I don't know if this is your first e-bike conversion but I found that I could easily climb the 10-12% hills around here with my TSDZ2 even in low to moderate assist with its 42t chainring and 12-32 cassette. Not sure I ever even needed the 32. Yes, your 700c wheels will be a little taller overall ratio, but then the Photon is stronger than TSDZ2. So, you'll be fine on the hills and welcome the taller gears on the flats.

Mainly ordered the 42t to keep the chainline straighter on the most used gears just in case when the most of the raiding happens in less hilly roads. 38t would have been easier on the motor, especially with 12-34t cassette and 700c wheels.
Not sure if the chainring will fit the 12 speed chain since it's has been said that not all narrow wide chainring fit 12 speed chains. Never stumbled upon anyone mentioning it anywhere specifically regarding to CYC chainrings.

I ordered the cyc photon on 9th of May, maybe you ordered yours slightly earlier.
 
IMO you'll be fine with the 42t. I don't know if this is your first e-bike conversion but I found that I could easily climb the 10-12% hills around here with my TSDZ2 even in low to moderate assist with its 42t chainring and 12-32 cassette. Not sure I ever even needed the 32. Yes, your 700c wheels will be a little taller overall ratio, but then the Photon is stronger than TSDZ2. So, you'll be fine on the hills and welcome the taller gears on the flats.
My only experience is with TSDZ2 which could ride 9-17% 0.5-1km long inclines found on my current commute only around 9-12 km/h @ 36V 10Ah (13-36t cassette) and 10-12A current. Wanted to increase the average speed to make the existing long distance commute to work more realistic so went for CYC Photon with reduced weight and supposedly twice as much torque compared to TSDZ2. New heavier duty Bitex rear wheel, 52V 20Ah battery and wired Continental Contact Urban tyres rated for 50 km/h will increase total weight though. Will have to keep an eye on temperatures since there have been only one post about adding ferrofluid to CYC Stealth outrunner on endless-sphere. Knowing that the outrunner motor on CYC photon has a different structure compared to hub motor adding ferrofluid might not be entirely possible.
 
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My only experience is with TSDZ2 which could ride 9-17% 0.5-1km long inclines found on my current commute only around 9-12 km/h @ 36V 10Ah (13-36t cassette) and 10-12A current. Wanted to increase the average speed to make the existing long distance commute to work more realistic so went for CYC Photon with reduced weight and supposedly twice as much torque compared to TSDZ2. New heavier duty Bitex rear wheel, 52V 20Ah battery and wired Continental Contact Urban tyres rated for 50 km/h will increase total weight though. Will have to keep an eye on temperatures since there have been only one post about adding ferrofluid to CYC Stealth outrunner on endless-sphere. Knowing that the outrunner motor on CYC photon has a different structure compared to hub motor adding ferrofluid might not be entirely possible.
Hi sysrq, any idea how I can find the thread on the cyc stealth and ferro fluid? I've been looking in to this and couldn't find any useful info
 
This should be a bit faster commute for you than TSDZ2. Hard to say about the heat yet since I haven't used it much. It did get quite warm to the touch on my short test ride yesterday but I was pushing it hard and testing the throttle. I will have my display showing temperature when I ride today and report back.

Trying to push high speeds on long steep climbs might be a problem. Photon will certainly climb them easily but as you noted, speed and total power/amperage will be the issue. One poster somewhere said that if you kept Photon to its nominal 750 watt output it would not overheat and throttle itself. If so, I bet it gets pretty close. One potential workaround is to go into the app and set the max power for 750 in race mode. Street mode that limits you to 750 watts unfortunately limits speed to 16 by default and 19 max which would be too slow for a commute... or any of the rides I do out on country roads. Or maybe some wattage between 750 and the max once you see how it performs on your particular climbs.

In any case we will all be waiting to hear how yours stands up to the high speed commuting grind. Mine will live a somewhat easier life doing long but occasional recreation rides.

BTW, having a 17% climb on a commute is brutal. We have stuff like that here in the nearby Catoctin mountains and back in my younger and stronger days I did many club rides on those on my pedal road bikes. But doing something like that on a commute with a pedal bike would truly suck.

Oh, I ordered my Photon May 3, so about 1 week before you. So, hopefully yours will ship soon.

My only experience is with TSDZ2 which could ride 9-17% 0.5-1km long inclines found on my current commute only around 9-12 km/h @ 36V 10Ah (13-36t cassette) and 10-12A current. Wanted to increase the average speed to make the existing long distance commute to work more realistic so went for CYC Photon with reduced weight and supposedly twice as much torque compared to TSDZ2. New heavier duty Bitex rear wheel, 52V 20Ah battery and wired Continental Contact Urban tyres rated for 50 km/h will increase total weight though. Will have to keep an eye on temperatures since there have been only one post about adding ferrofluid to CYC Stealth outrunner on endless-sphere. Knowing that the outrunner motor on CYC photon has a different structure compared to hub motor adding ferrofluid might not be entirely possibl
 
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Just a heads up for you guys installing Photons... You will need a BB wrench compatible with Shimano external BB cups. But... you will need one that has an open crescent, not a full circle. The full circle tool like the Park in the photo interferes with the motor case and will not go on. Luckily, I had both tools so I did not have to go out and find or order one and be delayed in my installation. So, check your tools ahead of time and be ready to go.

BB_tools.JPG
 
The Bafang BBS outer cosmetic ring socket also works - but having the open crescent wrench also makes checking that the cup remains tight, easier (crank arm stays in place).
 
I did my test ride today, ~2000 feet of climbing spread over 30 miles of rolling hills with a couple of decent climbs. The title of my review could be "The honeymoon is over". Not that I am disappointed, just not blown away. I ran it in default settings.

The good:
1. Torque sensor works very well with very little lag and very little overrun.
2. Strong climbing power in Race level 3

The bad:
1. Noise. Turns out it does get noisy when you load the motor up at higher RPM like in a climbing situation. In fact, it sounds a good bit like my X1 Pro Gen 2 in that regard. Good old straight cut gear noises. When you are cruising along at speed on the flats it is quieter, with the wind noise easily overcoming anything coming out of the motor.
2. The SW102 display that I love for its simplicity is almost unreadable in bright daylight. Yes, I had it in the higher brightness setting. It could probably benefit from a negative image, i.e., having black text on white background instead of the white text on black background. It is like running a screen in night mode in the daytime. I can barely read the MPH and make out the battery SOC bar but that's about it. I may have to upgrade this to the DS103. I just should have got that at purchase.
3. Not sure if this is a problem with the app or the display firmware but I can't get my 26" wheel size setting to take. I can change it and save it in the app but the wheel size in the display settings menu is locked on 29 and will not let me change it. So, of course everything in the speed display and trip data is just wrong.

The "not sure yet"
1. Heat. Motor temps were generally fine, hitting a max of 140F rolling along at a 20+ MPH average speed. The warmest it got was 190F on the one sustained climb, about 1K, 400-500 feet vertical with a couple of fairly steep steps. The good news is that temps come down quickly when you get off the gas or go downhill. That seems as good as my TSDZ2 with the cooling mods. TSDZ2 without cooling mods would hold those high temp much longer. So, I say not sure, but for my riding I think it will be fine until I get out into our local mountains with longer and steeper climbs. We'll see how that goes one of these days. But someone may take one of these and try to time trial Alp D'Huez in level 3 and that would almost certainly cause it to overheat.

One other note on heat and the seeming ability to cool off fairly quickly... that is good if you assume the temp probe is in the motor core. But I don't know exactly how it is installed. For instance, if the temp sensor itself is near the case it might be cooling off faster than the core and giving a bit of false hope. Hard to know without seeing the innards.

Bottom line is I can't say that this is a huge upgrade from my OSF TSDZ2. The hardware is certainly better engineered and looks more robust, so maybe it will be more durable. Can't say that yet. But for the rides I do I would not be able go much if any faster with the Photon as compared to TSDZ2. Riding each in max assist I spin out at 30-32 MPH and both motors will do that (TSDZ2 with OSF field weakening). Now the Photon will climb a bit faster on its highest level (3) whereas Photon level 2 feels about like TSDZ2 max level. Well, maybe just a tiny bit stronger than TSDZ2 max. So, if you really press it on the hills on level 3 and if heat doesn't become a problem, it would be a little faster overall on a ride.

Compared to OSF TSDZ2 I am not sure that there is $400 of extra value with Photon. The hardware and design are certainly better, but performance is not that much stronger... and to use any extra power on a flat road you'd need a bigger chainring to access those potential ~5 more MPH. And it is noisier.

Anyway, that's my take for today. YMMV, of course. I'll update this if I learn things as I get more miles.
 
Thanks much for your "first ride impressions" writeup, @raylo32 - what do you have your (I assume) race level watts settings at, for levels 1, 2, and 3 (pedal & throttle)?

I've had the same experience with the temp dropoff when backing off the power, which gives me hope while riding truly horrid east coast high heat & humidity summer days.

In my experience, both the SW102 and the DS103 wash out in the direct sun, but the DS103 secondary text is slightly bigger - meanwhile, CYC wastes a lot of the DS103's screen real estate with that IMO dopey center graphic.
 
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Yup. I don't know why they can't make better displays. Tongsheng takes a lot of grief here but there are some things they do right, like the OEM TSDZ2 VLCD5, black text on white background, totally readable in any kind of light. And they paint the arrows on the OEM harness connectors bright white so you can actually see them. Just genius. CYC can't be bothered to do that? I don't believe Bafang does either. Just dumb.

In my experience, both the SW102 and the DS103 wash out in the direct sun, but the DS103 secondary text is slightly bigger - meanwhile, CYC wastes a lot of the DS103's screen real estate with that IMO dopey center graphic.
 
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IT is odd that sw102 is unreadable in sun. My eggrider display which is just a sw102 with custom firmware was extremely readable in all conditions.
 
This should be a bit faster commute for you than TSDZ2. Hard to say about the heat yet since I haven't used it much. It did get quite warm to the touch on my short test ride yesterday but I was pushing it hard and testing the throttle. I will have my display showing temperature when I ride today and report back.

Trying to push high speeds on long steep climbs might be a problem. Photon will certainly climb them easily but as you noted, speed and total power/amperage will be the issue. One poster somewhere said that if you kept Photon to its nominal 750 watt output it would not overheat and throttle itself. If so, I bet it gets pretty close. One potential workaround is to go into the app and set the max power for 750 in race mode. Street mode that limits you to 750 watts unfortunately limits speed to 16 by default and 19 max which would be too slow for a commute... or any of the rides I do out on country roads. Or maybe some wattage between 750 and the max once you see how it performs on your particular climbs.

In any case we will all be waiting to hear how yours stands up to the high speed commuting grind. Mine will live a somewhat easier life doing long but occasional recreation rides.

BTW, having a 17% climb on a commute is brutal. We have stuff like that here in the nearby Catoctin mountains and back in my younger and stronger days I did many club rides on those on my pedal road bikes. But doing something like that on a commute with a pedal bike would truly suck.

Oh, I ordered my Photon May 3, so about 1 week before you. So, hopefully yours will ship soon.
It's a semi-recriational 160 km round trip commute once or twice per month so far, shouldn't be that brutal on CYC Photon compared to weaker and more flimsy TSDZ2. Probably will try it out with a current close ratio 12-34 cassette and then decide about a necessity for wider range cassette (ones with smaller steps between high gears and wider steps between low gears are hardly available except for Campagnolo Ekar and Rotor, normal MTB ones have tight granny gears and wide wide steps between high gears). Hopefully someone will come up with an aftermarket 2x chainring since making a diy contraption out of the supplied chainring looks way too silly and dimensionaly impossible.
 
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I did my test ride today, ~2000 feet of climbing spread over 30 miles of rolling hills with a couple of decent climbs. The title of my review could be "The honeymoon is over". Not that I am disappointed, just not blown away. I ran it in default settings.

The good:
1. Torque sensor works very well with very little lag and very little overrun.
2. Strong climbing power in Race level 3

The bad:
1. Noise. Turns out it does get noisy when you load the motor up at higher RPM like in a climbing situation. In fact, it sounds a good bit like my X1 Pro Gen 2 in that regard. Good old straight cut gear noises. When you are cruising along at speed on the flats it is quieter, with the wind noise easily overcoming anything coming out of the motor.
2. The SW102 display that I love for its simplicity is almost unreadable in bright daylight. Yes, I had it in the higher brightness setting. It could probably benefit from a negative image, i.e., having black text on white background instead of the white text on black background. It is like running a screen in night mode in the daytime. I can barely read the MPH and make out the battery SOC bar but that's about it. I may have to upgrade this to the DS103. I just should have got that at purchase.
3. Not sure if this is a problem with the app or the display firmware but I can't get my 26" wheel size setting to take. I can change it and save it in the app but the wheel size in the display settings menu is locked on 29 and will not let me change it. So, of course everything in the speed display and trip data is just wrong.

The "not sure yet"
1. Heat. Motor temps were generally fine, hitting a max of 140F rolling along at a 20+ MPH average speed. The warmest it got was 190F on the one sustained climb, about 1K, 400-500 feet vertical with a couple of fairly steep steps. The good news is that temps come down quickly when you get off the gas or go downhill. That seems as good as my TSDZ2 with the cooling mods. TSDZ2 without cooling mods would hold those high temp much longer. So, I say not sure, but for my riding I think it will be fine until I get out into our local mountains with longer and steeper climbs. We'll see how that goes one of these days. But someone may take one of these and try to time trial Alp D'Huez in level 3 and that would almost certainly cause it to overheat.

One other note on heat and the seeming ability to cool off fairly quickly... that is good if you assume the temp probe is in the motor core. But I don't know exactly how it is installed. For instance, if the temp sensor itself is near the case it might be cooling off faster than the core and giving a bit of false hope. Hard to know without seeing the innards.

Bottom line is I can't say that this is a huge upgrade from my OSF TSDZ2. The hardware is certainly better engineered and looks more robust, so maybe it will be more durable. Can't say that yet. But for the rides I do I would not be able go much if any faster with the Photon as compared to TSDZ2. Riding each in max assist I spin out at 30-32 MPH and both motors will do that (TSDZ2 with OSF field weakening). Now the Photon will climb a bit faster on its highest level (3) whereas Photon level 2 feels about like TSDZ2 max level. Well, maybe just a tiny bit stronger than TSDZ2 max. So, if you really press it on the hills on level 3 and if heat doesn't become a problem, it would be a little faster overall on a ride.

Compared to OSF TSDZ2 I am not sure that there is $400 of extra value with Photon. The hardware and design are certainly better, but performance is not that much stronger... and to use any extra power on a flat road you'd need a bigger chainring to access those potential ~5 more MPH. And it is noisier.

Anyway, that's my take for today. YMMV, of course. I'll update this if I learn things as I get more miles.
Strange, on HighVoltage channel videos seen on YouTube CYC Photon was climbing as fast as BBS02 or nearly as BBSHD.
 
Just a heads up for you guys installing Photons... You will need a BB wrench compatible with Shimano external BB cups. But... you will need one that has an open crescent, not a full circle. The full circle tool like the Park in the photo interferes with the motor case and will not go on. Luckily, I had both tools so I did not have to go out and find or order one and be delayed in my installation. So, check your tools ahead of time and be ready to go.

View attachment 335751

Inexpensive option from China works well if you are just a hobbyist. You still need to take the spacers off though.

wp-1680245443576.jpg
 
IT is odd that sw102 is unreadable in sun. My eggrider display which is just a sw102 with custom firmware was extremely readable in all conditions.
My SW102 is perfectly readable in all conditions and even wearing polarised riding glasses. Strange.

As mentioned in my review back here: CYC PHOTON
 
Interesting... as far as I can tell there are only 2 brightness levels that you set by holding down the up button. Am I missing something? Also, do you guys have any ideas why my display is stuck on 29 inch wheel in the settings menu? It literally offers no other choices. It did show the options the first time I went in there but it would not save my choice. And if I change the wheel size in the app to 26 and save it, it eventually reverts to 29 in the app, too. I don't see a way to reset this to factory defaults or I'd try to start over again. Or maybe try to reflash the firmware, but I don't see that is available anywhere.

BTW, the display did accept my battery (52V) and choice of units, etc. Problem is only with the wheel size.

My SW102 is perfectly readable in all conditions and even wearing polarised riding glasses. Strange.

As mentioned in my review back here: CYC PHOTON
 
Interesting... as far as I can tell there are only 2 brightness levels that you set by holding down the up button. Am I missing something? Also, do you guys have any ideas why my display is stuck on 29 inch wheel in the settings menu? It literally offers no other choices. It did show the options the first time I went in there but it would not save my choice. And if I change the wheel size in the app to 26 and save it, it eventually reverts to 29 in the app, too. I don't see a way to reset this to factory defaults or I'd try to start over again. Or maybe try to reflash the firmware, but I don't see that is available anywhere.

BTW, the display did accept my battery (52V) and choice of units, etc. Problem is only with the wheel size.
Just confirming I can change and set my wheel size no problem. Currently 27.5. Firmware 1011 L C
 
Playing with this some more... man, the firmware and app for the Photon is not even ready for Beta, IMO. It is just terrible. I can't even tell you how hard it sucks. See the photo below of my display wheel setting stuck on 29. There are no other choices. I can change it to 26 in the app, the app says make sure to change it on the display also, which, of course, I can't do. Then I can successfully "save" it in the app, but when I pull the screen down to refresh it pulls the 29 back from the display and makes it 29 in the app again. Dear god.

And even worse... I reset the app to factory defaults. It didn't fix the above issue but somehow changed the speed limits to include making the Race speed limit, which had been 62 MPH to 28 MPH now. And it will not accept changes to make it higher. I deleted and reinstalled the app and no difference. Wheel stuck on 29, Race speed limit max of 28 MPH. Unacceptable.

I am going to have to call the vendor tomorrow and get this sorted. If I am stuck with a 28MPH speed limit in what was and should be unlimited Race mode I am sending this POS back. Sorry for venting. But this is just a mess.



SW102.JPG
 
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And even worse... I reset the app to factory defaults. It didn't fix the above issue but somehow changed the speed limits to include making the Race speed limit, which had been 66 MPH to 28 MPH now. And it will not accept changes to make it higher. I deleted and reinstalled the app and no difference. Wheel stuck on 29, Race speed limit max of 28 MPH. Unacceptable.

I am going to have to call the vendor tomorrow and get this sorted. If I am stuck with a 28MPH speed limit in what was and should be unlimited Race mode I am sending this POS back. Sorry for venting. But this is just a mess.
I recall the same experience with my initial setup, the speed restriction was far higher than it should have been, after resetting to defaults the max was correctly set for Race mode in US which is 45kph. That is actually more than I need for my type of riding.

Unfortunately there is no ability to add custom presets, and none of the ones available match the requirements for NZ, which is 300W with no speed restrictions. Please CYC, add this feature!

Just use unrestricted and set the limits you want, that is what it is for. It isn't just for going crazy.
 
What do you mean "use unrestricted"? Is there a setting for that? I haven't seen it. Race mode is supposed to be unrestricted. That's why it is called Race. I have no such issues with my CYC X1 Pro Gen 2 with BAC 850. Race mode is unrestricted.

I don't ride at steady speeds beyond 45 kph but find the higher speeds helpful when entering or exiting a higher car traffic road or like one of my loops I need to get on a busier road with no shoulder for about 1/3 mile. I can find a gap then go, and stay clear ahead of any cars that might be coming up from behind and then make my right turn. Another scenario is on the shoulder of a fairly busy road and I need to get into the traffic lane to make a left turn. It is much easier to get into a gap and make the move with more speed, rather than trying to see and dodge cars zooming up from behind. I really spin the pedals up for these scenarios and can get up to 35 mph. Well, COULD get to 35 MPH before my app changed itself. WTF. I really need to get all this sorted. I am used to my TSDZ2 with OSF...flashing multiple versions when new features come out, making any and all settings that I want anytime. Now I have a half functional Photon with a locked up incorrect wheel size and no way to make the settings that I want.

I recall the same experience with my initial setup, the speed restriction was far higher than it should have been, after resetting to defaults the max was correctly set for Race mode in US which is 45kph. That is actually more than I need for my type of riding.

Unfortunately there is no ability to add custom presets, and none of the ones available match the requirements for NZ, which is 300W with no speed restrictions. Please CYC, add this feature!

Just use unrestricted and set the limits you want, that is what it is for. It isn't just for going crazy.
 
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