Info on stripping a DNP Epoch freewheel

[Chalo]

[

One of the reasons I recommend against DNP freewheels is that the sprocket teeth are poorly formed and made from more wear-prone metal than Shimano or the better grades of SunRace freewheels.

Except for those of us that need an 11 T sm.gear on a freewheel, there is no other choice.

Not true.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sunrace+11-32+9-speed+freewheel

SunRace's nicer freewheels have far surpassed DNP's. They make an 11-36 10-speed, too.

If you can find an old stock 11-34 or 11-28 Shimano freewheel, that's the real deal. I snatch them up when I find them (rarely), but the one on my rain bike has been kicking ass for many years.

 

[wturber]

[

One of the reasons I recommend against DNP freewheels is that the sprocket teeth are poorly formed and made from more wear-prone metal than Shimano or the better grades of SunRace freewheels.

Except for those of us that need an 11 T sm.gear on a freewheel, there is no other choice.

Not true.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sunrace+11-32+9-speed+freewheel

SunRace's nicer freewheels have far surpassed DNP's. They make an 11-36 10-speed, too.

If you can find an old stock 11-34 or 11-28 Shimano freewheel, that's the real deal. I snatch them up when I find them (rarely), but the one on my rain bike has been kicking ass for many years.

Yes, but from what I've found, not in 7 or 8 speed configurations.

 

[NeilP]

At least a few years ago, the Shimano ones were selling in the hundreds of dollars... no thanks

 

[Chalo]

At least a few years ago, the Shimano ones were selling in the hundreds of dollars... no thanks

I never heard that. But foolishness being what it is, I'm not particularly surprised.

The only reason 11t and 10t sprockets work on pedal bikes is because they're used so infrequently. On an e-bike, they can work if the pedaling done with them is weak or merely pantomime. If used often and in earnest, they wreck the chain which in turn wrecks the other sprockets in the system. Ratio for ratio, it's always better mechanically to use bigger sprockets.

The worst use case for 11t sprockets is using a high powered mid drive with a small chainring, and running most of the time in top gear. And yet this worst possible way to abuse a pedal drivetrain seems to be more popular than using large chainrings to drive large rear sprockets.

 

[wturber]

At least a few years ago, the Shimano ones were selling in the hundreds of dollars... no thanks

<snip>

It gets rather silly (IMO) at times...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dura-Ace-Freewheel-7400-7-Speed-12-21-Shimano-SIS-Vintage-Road-Bicycle-NOS/273675106108?hash=item3fb84eb73c:g:6s0AAOxyxU1Q9HXw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunTour-Winner-7-Speed-12T-30T-NEW-NOS-MTB-Road-Freewheel-Vintage-NIB/153422799601
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Old-Stock-Suntour-Winner-Ultra-7-Speed-Freewheel-12x32-w-Silver-Finish/392141850282?hash=item5b4d79c6aa:g:CxQAAMXQnYJQ-m~E:sc:USPSPriorityMailPaddedFlatRateEnvelope!85260!US!-1

 

[motomech]

[

One of the reasons I recommend against DNP freewheels is that the sprocket teeth are poorly formed and made from more wear-prone metal than Shimano or the better grades of SunRace freewheels.

Except for those of us that need an 11 T sm.gear on a freewheel, there is no other choice.

Not true.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sunrace+11-32+9-speed+freewheel

SunRace's nicer freewheels have far surpassed DNP's. They make an 11-36 10-speed, too.

If you can find an old stock 11-34 or 11-28 Shimano freewheel, that's the real deal. I snatch them up when I find them (rarely), but the one on my rain bike has been kicking ass for many years.

Maybe I'm missing something, but all those Sunrace units appear to be what I refer to as a cassette. I know it's confusing because cassettes are often called freehubs, but note that every unit on that page feature "lock-rings", which is how cassettes are secured.
Also, the dedents which engauge the cassette splines are clearly visible.

 

[markz]

Hey Chalo, nice use of words. Pantomime, my guess is Phatom-like, but I digress, lemme use my fingers. Hmmm no go
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pantomime
So your saying Pantomime, in regards to pedaling with 11 or 10T is a joke or a comedy. Interesting use of words.

You're right in the regards of wanting to get smaller rear rather then larger front, I think it comes down to its easier, and probably cheaper to buy a 11-34T then to buy a whole new crankset, or just the crank ring. Using my fingers again, Chain Reaction Cycle has a 48T for $30 then it jumps to $52 on up! Trump peso's that is!

Doubt there is much reason for a "fast" gearing for us ebikers, been said about speed that its just bad because of aero. Have to look at case-use studies for the rider. Some like to go go 60+ on a bicycle frame not meant for those kinds of forces, or the components neither. For the casuals, the fake pedaling is good enough and we dont go much past 20-25mph anyways, but want to go up them steepies too.

No need to wear out our gear when there is no net positive to gain from it. Just save your Trumponian$ for more electric stuff! :wink:

At least a few years ago, the Shimano ones were selling in the hundreds of dollars... no thanks

I never heard that. But foolishness being what it is, I'm not particularly surprised.

The only reason 11t and 10t sprockets work on pedal bikes is because they're used so infrequently. On an e-bike, they can work if the pedaling done with them is weak or merely pantomime. If used often and in earnest, they wreck the chain which in turn wrecks the other sprockets in the system. Ratio for ratio, it's always better mechanically to use bigger sprockets.

The worst use case for 11t sprockets is using a high powered mid drive with a small chainring, and running most of the time in top gear. And yet this worst possible way to abuse a pedal drivetrain seems to be more popular than using large chainrings to drive large rear sprockets.

 

[Chalo]

SunRace's nicer freewheels have far surpassed DNP's. They make an 11-36 10-speed, too.

Maybe I'm missing something, but all those Sunrace units appear to be what I refer to as a cassette.

No. They make 9- and 10-speed freewheels. They're specified for e-bikes because hub motors have big fat non- bendy axles that can tolerate the large overhang of an 8/9/10 freewheel.

http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/freewheels-e-bike

The 12t has to hang off the end of the 14t, to occupy space that would otherwise be inside the freewheel body. Then the 11t has to hang off the end of that. The retaining ring that holds the 11t on looks a bit like a cassette lockring, but note that the remover spline is up inside the freewheel.

 

[Chalo]

Hey Chalo, nice use of words. Pantomime, my guess is Phatom-like, but I digress, lemme use my fingers. Hmmm no go
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pantomime
So your saying Pantomime, in regards to pedaling with 11 or 10T is a joke or a comedy. Interesting use of words.

My point is only that you won't wear out an itsy bitsy sprocket if you're not actually pushing on the pedals as you turn them around. But if you are pushing hard (or if a motor is pushing hard), you'll wear it out fast.

 

[wturber]

My point is only that you won't wear out an itsy bitsy sprocket if you're not actually pushing on the pedals as you turn them around. But if you are pushing hard (or if a motor is pushing hard), you'll wear it out fast.

It is going to be the rare e-biker who will always be on the 11 toother wearing it out. That is, unless he's driving it with a mid-drive motor. For hub motor guys like me, I don't see how it is likely that you'd wear it out very fast.

My 11 tooth is used almost exclusively for downhill runs. My motor power cuts out at 28 mph as per AZ law, and though I like to think I'm fairly fit, I can't drive a 53 x 11 with a 26" wheel (144 gear inches!!) on an 80 lb e-bike for very long. I'd frankly prefer having a 12 tooth for the highest gear. I can feel the lack of smoothness in the 11 and it is a tad too tall. I think that 12,13,14,15 ... would be nice for my situation and the way I like to ride.

 

[markz]

Hmmmm 53 and 11, is there a standard "capacity" derailleur that can handle that?
On a double it would work I would guess.
I know I've looked into it, can't remember though, though my priority was to have a hill climbing gear, so 22T crank gear and 34T rear gear. The fast gears would have to lay to the waste-side.

I would like to know my lazy cadence, my actually pedal and do some effort cadence and my givvvvver cadence. With cadence the key is having an even cadence. But I am no Lycra, I am lazy with no chain and new fd, rd and chains ready to go.

It is going to be the rare e-biker who will always be on the 11 toother wearing it out. That is, unless he's driving it with a mid-drive motor. For hub motor guys like me, I don't see how it is likely that you'd wear it out very fast.

My 11 tooth is used almost exclusively for downhill runs. My motor power cuts out at 28 mph as per AZ law, and though I like to think I'm fairly fit, I can't drive a 53 x 11 with a 26" wheel (144 gear inches!!) on an 80 lb e-bike for very long. I'd frankly prefer having a 12 tooth for the highest gear. I can feel the lack of smoothness in the 11 and it is a tad too tall. I think that 12,13,14,15 ... would be nice for my situation and the way I like to ride.

 

[wturber]

Hmmmm 53 and 11, is there a standard "capacity" derailleur that can handle that?

There is no problem with that combo. It is the 53 x 32 that exceeds the derailer's (or my chain length's) capacity. I'm only running a 7 speed cassette and yes, the front is a road crank with only two rings.

On a double it would work I would guess.
I know I've looked into it, can't remember though, though my priority was to have a hill climbing gear, so 22T crank gear and 34T rear gear. The fast gears would have to lay to the waste-side.

I don't go down to the lowest gear when I'm on the big ring. My small ring is 42 and it works fine with the 32. If I need a gear lower than 42x32 on the road, I figure I may as well walk. I'm not doing trails on this bike.

 

[pani_alex]

does someone knows what is the tool to disassemble the sprockets? i have one that says BY-DNP LY-3008-KF if that means something. To take out the holding ring, to detach it from the wheel found it

 

[Bullfrog]

Anybody know of a 7 speed freewheel with the largest gear bigger than a 34t besides the "Falcon" brand?

Thanks

Yep, I know this is an old thread...but it sounds like there are a bunch of smart people on it .

One nice thing about the DNP freewheel is the smaller section matches the drive for Cassette gears so if you remove the nut holding the gears on you can change them to whatever you want to run if you have individual "Cassette" gears.

 

[Chalo]

Anybody know of a 7 speed freewheel with the largest gear bigger than a 34t besides the "Falcon" brand?

In the early '90s, I used to recompile Suntour Winner Pro 7 speed freewheels with loose sprockets from sprocket boards to make 12-38 stacks. I can't say whether they would work with 7 speed index shifting, because I never tried using them that way.

I have not seen any 7 speed freewheels with larger than 38t sprockets, only 8 speed 14-42 freewheels taken from crappy department store bikes.

 

[amberwolf]

If the diameters and splines on the freewheel bodies are the same, the sprockets from them would fit, so if you have one laying around with the right size sprocket, you can try transplanting it.

Most of the ones I've taken apart to save sprockets off of rusted-solid freewheels on junk bikes fit each other, whether they had any brand name on them or not (some shimano, some others I don't recall).

 

[Bullfrog]

In the early '90s, I used to recompile Suntour Winner Pro 7 speed freewheels with loose sprockets from sprocket boards to make 12-38 stacks. I can't say whether they would work with 7 speed index shifting, because I never tried using them that way.

I have not seen any 7 speed freewheels with larger than 38t sprockets, only 8 speed 14-42 freewheels taken from crappy department store bikes.

If the diameters and splines on the freewheel bodies are the same, the sprockets from them would fit, so if you have one laying around with the right size sprocket, you can try transplanting it.

Most of the ones I've taken apart to save sprockets off of rusted-solid freewheels on junk bikes fit each other, whether they had any brand name on them or not (some shimano, some others I don't recall).

Thanks guys.

Yesterday I found that the current Mongoose Ardor mountain bike comes with a ?-38 7 speed freewheel. I may try to order one directly from Pacific Cycles if they aren't too expensive.

I have used a DNP freewheel to build a custom gear stack but only the four smallest gears match the drive spline configuration of Shimano cassette gears. Nothing magic about Shimano gears...the drive spline pattern is just the most common and used for most cassette gears no matter who makes them.

 

[Chalo]

I have used a DNP freewheel to build a custom gear stack but only the four smallest gears match the drive spline configuration of Shimano cassette gears.

If four gears will do the job for you, you could break up a Sunrace 11-40 or Microshift 12-42 or 12-46 8-speed cassette and just use your four favorites. The spacing difference between 7 and 8 speed is only 0.2mm. That can cause shifting issues across the entire stack, but if it's only four gears you're using, the maximum discrepancy would be 0.6mm. I doubt you would have any problem getting it adjusted adequately.

 

[Bullfrog]

If four gears will do the job for you, you could break up a Sunrace 11-40 or Microshift 12-42 or 12-46 8-speed cassette and just use your four favorites. The spacing difference between 7 and 8 speed is only 0.2mm. That can cause shifting issues across the entire stack, but if it's only four gears you're using, the maximum discrepancy would be 0.6mm. I doubt you would have any problem getting it adjusted adequately.

Chalo...I like the way you think . Your suggestion is exactly what I have done for a couple of my ebikes.

Unfortunately I need at least 6 gears for my "pedal only" bike so I plan to look into the Mongoose Ardor X1 freewheel that has a 38 for the largest gear on its freewheel. Luckily I have a long arm derailleur on the bike already so everything should work OK.

 

[Chalo]

Unfortunately I need at least 6 gears for my "pedal only" bike so I plan to look into the Mongoose Ardor X1 freewheel that has a 38 for the largest gear on its freewheel. Luckily I have a long arm derailleur on the bike already so everything should work OK.

If the top pulley won't clear the 38 tooth sprocket, you can mount the derailleur an extender like Wolf Tooth Road Link or a generic equivalent:

Amazon.com


It drops the derailleur down across its whole range, so don't use one unless you have to. It can reduce the precision of shifting in the small sprockets a bit.

 

[Bullfrog]

If the top pulley won't clear the 38 tooth sprocket, you can mount the derailleur an extender like Wolf Tooth Road Link or a generic equivalent:

Amazon.com
View attachment 344421

It drops the derailleur down across its whole range, so don't use one unless you have to. It can reduce the precision of shifting in the small sprockets a bit.

Thanks!

I didn't even know that part existed.

You continue to impress .

 

[wturber]

It is going to be the rare e-biker who will always be on the 11 toother wearing it out. That is, unless he's driving it with a mid-drive motor. For hub motor guys like me, I don't see how it is likely that you'd wear it out very fast.

My 11 tooth is used almost exclusively for downhill runs. My motor power cuts out at 28 mph as per AZ law, and though I like to think I'm fairly fit, I can't drive a 53 x 11 with a 26" wheel (144 gear inches!!) on an 80 lb e-bike for very long. I'd frankly prefer having a 12 tooth for the highest gear. I can feel the lack of smoothness in the 11 and it is a tad too tall. I think that 12,13,14,15 ... would be nice for my situation and the way I like to ride.

It is now 2024 and I've worn out my DNP freewheel. I put something upwards of 12,000 - 15,000 miles on it. I stopped paying attention after 10,000 miles.

At first I thought it was a worn chain. But It is pretty clearly not that. The chain is jumping unexpectedly when on the middle cogs. And as expected, the 11 tooth gear is doing fine. The problem is in the middle gears. I've been working around the problem by running on the smaller 42 tooth chainring. This shifts the chain to the smaller cogs on the derailleur. So that 11 tooth gear is finally getting a fair bit of use.

I've looked again, and can't seem to find a 7 speed freewheel that starts at 12 tooth and has a decent range. Heck, the only 13 tooth is also a DNP. So I need to decide if maybe that's a better option. I'm not putting as many miles on the ebike these days. So whatever I end up with should last close to 10 years.