"Jaywalking"
- Thread starter Miles
- Start date
friendly1uk
1 MW
Miles said:
We might think so, because we are british and don't need the law to tell us how to respect others. Many countries don't understand simple things such as queuing or making sure everybody gets a fair share of things. The worst we see here is some pillock pressing the button at the crossing before they have even looked to see if the road was clear anyway. So your driving along and have to stop at some lights that have gone red after the pratt has already crossed. That is about as bad as it gets. Our roads are built with giving traffic and pedestrians their fair share of mobility, So crossing when it is not your turn is just wreckless. Even though a pedestrian in the uk has right of way the moment they step on to the tarmac. Regardless of who was there first. We see people crossing diagonally from corner to corner and it is just mayhem, we cross in a straight line to minimise time exposed to danger. Everything is done in the safest way possible with the up-most respect towards others. This way we all get things done. It is team work.
Other countries often have the 'every man for himself' attitude and their disrespect for others gets them killed. Like a car is going to stop for some fool that just steps out in such a society. Your going to get flattened. The selfish driver will not be looking for the selfish pedestrian. Or care.
Here, we get guidance as children. Elsewhere, they're kept in line by the law. It is not patronising, there really are idiots that can't understand it.
More commonly, it takes so long after pressing the button before the lights actually change that an opportunity to cross arises beforehand and the road is crossed before the traffic is detained......friendly1uk said:
I prefer zebra crossings, in conjunction with a 20mph speed limit.
A prat on foot is, mostly, a danger to himself. A prat in a car is a danger to everyone.
dogman dan
1 PW
Jaywalking laws can be ridiculous, but so can people. In my state of the USA, they have slow school zones and crossing guards at all the elementary schools, then still the 15 mph zone in front of middle and high schools. With the traffic slowed to 15 mph even at the high school, the kids just stroll out without looking or caring what the cars are doing. Keeps those kids safe till they turn 18.
Sounds all reasonable. But here is how it actually works. The first day of school at NMSU, the college freshmen get to cross the street where it's 35 mph for the first time in their entire lives. They literally don't know how to cross the street at 18 years of age. One location was a particular problem since there was a feeder street on one side but no street on the NMSU side. So walking up the street from the student slum apartments, you'd naturally want to cross there. No crosswalk, so it was considered a jaywalk.
The cops would sit there for a week when school started writing jaywalk tickets. This went on every fall for decades. Finally some genius got a crosswalk built there, with a flashing light reminding cars that you stop for people in a crosswalk. So now the "children" get to go back to strolling out into traffic without looking or letting cars pass first, since they are now in a crosswalk. It's a big improvement, now they stroll across the podium and get a degree without their higher education including learning to cross a street.
On the bright side the kids driving to class get an education on learning not to tailgate, since traffic stops unexpectedly there all day now.
Sounds all reasonable. But here is how it actually works. The first day of school at NMSU, the college freshmen get to cross the street where it's 35 mph for the first time in their entire lives. They literally don't know how to cross the street at 18 years of age. One location was a particular problem since there was a feeder street on one side but no street on the NMSU side. So walking up the street from the student slum apartments, you'd naturally want to cross there. No crosswalk, so it was considered a jaywalk.
The cops would sit there for a week when school started writing jaywalk tickets. This went on every fall for decades. Finally some genius got a crosswalk built there, with a flashing light reminding cars that you stop for people in a crosswalk. So now the "children" get to go back to strolling out into traffic without looking or letting cars pass first, since they are now in a crosswalk. It's a big improvement, now they stroll across the podium and get a degree without their higher education including learning to cross a street.
On the bright side the kids driving to class get an education on learning not to tailgate, since traffic stops unexpectedly there all day now.
Architectonic
10 kW
Applying for permission to cross the road is pretty patronising.
PS, I don't believe the above anecdote about college students not being able to cross the road. There is a difference between not knowing and willingness to take a small risk because you don't want to be stuck on the side of the road for another 5 minutes.
PS, I don't believe the above anecdote about college students not being able to cross the road. There is a difference between not knowing and willingness to take a small risk because you don't want to be stuck on the side of the road for another 5 minutes.
dogman dan
1 PW
You have to see it to believe it. 18 year old "adults", yet they have literally never walked anywhere in their lives. They crossed streets at school to mom's car that had 15 mph speed limits. Then at 16 drove in their car, or rode a friends car. They have walked in residential neighborhoods and parking lots.
Suddenly they are living in apartments across a very busy 35 mph road from NMSU, where you can't park a car. So they walk the two blocks, step out into fast traffic, and expect them to stop like it's a school zone.
I'm not joking, at 18, they don't really know how to cross a busy street. This may not happen in all of America, but it sure does happen here. Lots of these freshmen have lived all their lives in very small towns. It's their first time in the city. By week two of the fall semester, you can see a marked improvement in how they cross the road. They may still jaywalk, but they now get it that it's not the kiddie school zone anymore. They still gang up and stop the traffic, but now understand they need to wait for a small gap to do it.
Suddenly they are living in apartments across a very busy 35 mph road from NMSU, where you can't park a car. So they walk the two blocks, step out into fast traffic, and expect them to stop like it's a school zone.
I'm not joking, at 18, they don't really know how to cross a busy street. This may not happen in all of America, but it sure does happen here. Lots of these freshmen have lived all their lives in very small towns. It's their first time in the city. By week two of the fall semester, you can see a marked improvement in how they cross the road. They may still jaywalk, but they now get it that it's not the kiddie school zone anymore. They still gang up and stop the traffic, but now understand they need to wait for a small gap to do it.
Architectonic
10 kW
Regardless, I personally would like to ask why we build such non-human friendly infrastructure in the first place?
Sprawl and endless roads is not merely a choice, but a result of path dependency on the part of American planners. They were told to support the car industry and so they did. At the cost of many other things.
There are alternatives, see practical examples in Jan Gehl's "Cities for People", http://thehumanscale.dk/ etc.
Sprawl and endless roads is not merely a choice, but a result of path dependency on the part of American planners. They were told to support the car industry and so they did. At the cost of many other things.
There are alternatives, see practical examples in Jan Gehl's "Cities for People", http://thehumanscale.dk/ etc.
Found this list of links last night:Architectonic said:
http://www.ibike.org/links/
Google "austin jaywalker Amanda". They had to assume she knew she had committed a crime that warranted being grabbed by police, and that she could hear or understand from the officers' 'body english' that they wished to detain her. I believe they should have exhausted methods of 'public education' other than making examples of individuals to avoid getting themselves into this situation. Police in the USA don't seem to like writing 'the report of shame' documenting suspects that 'got away'.
The distinction between bicyclist and pedestrian is murky where i live and I once had a cop give me a good hard look when I left the walk/path on my bicycle to go into the street. He looked like he was doing a 'draft report' in his mind to determine if he could get a bust on me.
[EDIT] I just read the story from the first post. I agree that when it comes to ped/bike/motorcycle, there isn't much need to regulate because physics already impose enough penalty for inappropriate behavior. The same can't be argued for road users who choose to surround themselves with a few tons of metal.
People love the rate of speed they experience on controlled-access roadways and irrationally try to apply the same expectations to all roadways. Drivers in my 21 sq. mile 'city' honk at me in my Buick when I go 25-30 in a 35 MPH zone, just because they had to use the left of the two same-direction lanes to pass! We're talking a 5 second delay for that maneuver! We aren't just automobile-centric, we're a culture of speed and haste.
How the Dutch got their cycle paths:
[youtube]XuBdf9jYj7o[/youtube]
rborger73
10 kW
I'm a civil rights advocate and libertarian. This kind of stuff ticks me off so much. If I had seen that I would of ended up in jail as well. We are going to start seeing actions taken by citizens that Law enforcement aren't going to like. Expect to see a lot of confrontation and people taking back their rights. We have 25% of the worlds prisoners and only 5% of the world's total population. And we are the supposed beacon of freedom. Changes need to be made for sure.
friendly1uk
1 MW
It's ok, them 25% have not seen a road in so long, they will get run over the minute they walk out the door lol
Prisons are big business. The fact you have private one's leads to people kept in boxes for monetary reasons. Judges will be kept sweet as long as they feed the jails, it's that simple. Police forces will get funding based on their results. It's corrupt. That 'land of the free' gag fools nobody. It's just an excuse not to help anyone. Leave them to get on with it, but collect taxes from them. Taxes that pay for the police to arrest you knowing most charges will stick because the judge is mates with the jailer and everybody involved needs work.
The land of the free looks like holland to me. They have a great deal of respect for eachother. You don't see them running eachother down. Perhaps the american people just can't get with it now though. Although I'm sure most can see a better way.
London is starting to suck too. Lots of nameless faces willing to climb over eachother to get there first. These kind of winners don't make a winning country though. They stand upon broken one's.
Prisons are big business. The fact you have private one's leads to people kept in boxes for monetary reasons. Judges will be kept sweet as long as they feed the jails, it's that simple. Police forces will get funding based on their results. It's corrupt. That 'land of the free' gag fools nobody. It's just an excuse not to help anyone. Leave them to get on with it, but collect taxes from them. Taxes that pay for the police to arrest you knowing most charges will stick because the judge is mates with the jailer and everybody involved needs work.
The land of the free looks like holland to me. They have a great deal of respect for eachother. You don't see them running eachother down. Perhaps the american people just can't get with it now though. Although I'm sure most can see a better way.
London is starting to suck too. Lots of nameless faces willing to climb over eachother to get there first. These kind of winners don't make a winning country though. They stand upon broken one's.
LockH
1 PW
"we're a culture of speed and haste."
HEY buddy! Some of us are Canadiens eh? (So gotta add waste to that list.)
HEY buddy! Some of us are Canadiens eh? (So gotta add waste to that list.)
This judge got caught, but you know that the same thing is going on to a degree with others who are more clever about not getting caught.friendly1uk said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
Eisenhower staked his legacy on a warning to the citizens about the military-industrial complex. Its doubtful he would do that now because there are more people 'in' the complex than otherwise. Now we have the 'law enforcement-judicial-prison-industrial' complex in addition, due to civil forfeiture and draconian drug laws. It helps nothing when the military-industrial complex is so pervasive that it spills over into the other complex in the form of surplus military equipment for LE.
Give a man a hammer and everything suddenly looks like a nailhead.
Hillhater
100 TW
We need more mutual understanding.
sure it might be nice to have a pedestrian only city area, but you need to remember how dependent we ALL are still on motorised transport.
Take away the cars & trucks and you take away the delivery services that keep the city alive and the transport medium that enables 75% of the workforce to get to work. The public transport would have to be expanded at an impossible rate ( 2 X as many buses ? and taxi's.. not much of an improvement !) ..More rail ?...not with a realistic timescale. and the cost of all this would be unacceptable to many travelers, resulting in more people moving closer to the city center ( oh! thats a lifestyle improvement for all !)
BUT.. without road transport, stores will have to find alternate ways to deliver supplies, trades men will not be able to access work sites, even the post & couriers will be restricted.
We are talking major society impact. !
No,.. we have to stop being selfish and learn to live with a mixed transport/ road & pedestrian system.
sure it might be nice to have a pedestrian only city area, but you need to remember how dependent we ALL are still on motorised transport.
Take away the cars & trucks and you take away the delivery services that keep the city alive and the transport medium that enables 75% of the workforce to get to work. The public transport would have to be expanded at an impossible rate ( 2 X as many buses ? and taxi's.. not much of an improvement !) ..More rail ?...not with a realistic timescale. and the cost of all this would be unacceptable to many travelers, resulting in more people moving closer to the city center ( oh! thats a lifestyle improvement for all !)
BUT.. without road transport, stores will have to find alternate ways to deliver supplies, trades men will not be able to access work sites, even the post & couriers will be restricted.
We are talking major society impact. !
No,.. we have to stop being selfish and learn to live with a mixed transport/ road & pedestrian system.
LockH
1 PW
" more mutual understanding"?
Simple. Take the young away from their parents. Teach them "military-style". To "back up" their "team" (humanity).
Simple. Take the young away from their parents. Teach them "military-style". To "back up" their "team" (humanity).
m4s73r
100 W
Well our prison system is about to get a wake up call. Seeing how almost half of all incarcerations are Marijuana related. (half might be an old number. its proly higher now). and weed is getting legalized rapidly. I think like 13 more states are getting ready to legalize it for medical use.
friendly1uk
1 MW
I hope legalisation works for you. Taking money out of organised crime should reduce it's impact. For a while the bottom feeders will resist and turn to other easy incomes, but in time many will turn to normal work. The gangs should shrink, and seeing less of them means fewer numbers will join. The number of range rovers will decline and prisons can keep hold of the continuing offenders for even longer now there is more room in there. It might take a couple of generations but gang culture will be reduced by a large margin.
I think if your carrying legal herbs you should have the sale number recorded on the little bag. So you can prove it came from the right taxable sources. No proof, and your carrying illegal drugs that likely support some undesirables somewhere. One should be legal if your allowed it, or a bit naughty if bought on your behalf. The illegal stuff should be as jailable as ever though. I would like to see homegrown allowed, but it won't stamp out crime. People will just have to buy the stuff. They will only get robbed by the then unemployed slingers if they do grow some anyway. We need to wait a generation
I think if your carrying legal herbs you should have the sale number recorded on the little bag. So you can prove it came from the right taxable sources. No proof, and your carrying illegal drugs that likely support some undesirables somewhere. One should be legal if your allowed it, or a bit naughty if bought on your behalf. The illegal stuff should be as jailable as ever though. I would like to see homegrown allowed, but it won't stamp out crime. People will just have to buy the stuff. They will only get robbed by the then unemployed slingers if they do grow some anyway. We need to wait a generation
rborger73
10 kW
friendly1uk said:
So you would just buy it once and keep the container it came in and put in the new product you buy blackmarket. lol Plus in CO (and washington for the moment though there is a bill underway to take away home grows) you are allowed 6 plants for recreational and 6 plants for medical. I qualify for medical so I'll be growing 12 plants. I'm a pretty big cannabis advocate and am well engaged in the movement and have been for about 6 years. We don't need any nanny state to tell us what we can or can't ingest. Especially when the item being discussed has never ever in the history of mankind has someone died from consuming cannabis. You are a little off on your assessment of cannabis and its legality.
m4s73r
100 W
I am also and advocate for legalization here in Missouri. ShowMeCannabis is our local group. Once its legal there wont be a black market. Pot can be grown my anyone with 150 bucks to get started. 1 600 watt light can produce over a pound of quality smoke in a 3x3 foot area. (small closet) Why would anyone ever buy it illegally again?
Architectonic
10 kW
Hillhater said:
Many delivery services in inner cities are moving towards electric tricycles for lower costs.
As far as busses go, greenfield developments in the Netherlands develop special direct bus-only roads, direct cycling and walking routes and indirect auto-mobile routes, requiring far less land being provided for roads than an equivalent size and density development in the USA or Australia. It seems to work just fine for them.
rborger73
10 kW
m4s73r said:
Missouri... just make sure you get your dogs bullet proof doggie vests. But MO is starting to make forward progress. We'll be 50 state legal in 5 years or less. Could be as soon as 3 with a little luck.
m4s73r
100 W
Im not waiting. Moving to Seattle this spring.
rborger73
10 kW
m4s73r said:
Good call. Moving to CO this spring.
LockH
1 PW
"... you get your dogs bullet proof doggie vests."
My puppies used to complain about their inflatable vests (stuff bounces off), but they realized at some point the view from higher up is good/bad (they are not large, heavy animals) Also, said vests work w/hot (warm, not actually TOO hot) air - usually works fine w/helium. My neighbours are amused when I take "the girls" out for a "walk", but I really feel they are safer "higher up". I'm thinking of going into biz, on "Firestarter" (or wattEVer it's called). BTW... Only "problem" with the "vests"? Too windy days.
My puppies used to complain about their inflatable vests (stuff bounces off), but they realized at some point the view from higher up is good/bad (they are not large, heavy animals) Also, said vests work w/hot (warm, not actually TOO hot) air - usually works fine w/helium. My neighbours are amused when I take "the girls" out for a "walk", but I really feel they are safer "higher up". I'm thinking of going into biz, on "Firestarter" (or wattEVer it's called). BTW... Only "problem" with the "vests"? Too windy days.
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