Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[E-HP]

Totally agree with E-HP.
Example of a cheap watt meter:
Turnigy 180A Watt Meter and Power Analyzer

or super cheap https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256...22fca1&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I have a 24", 26", 27.5", and a 29" rims with a MAC hub laced to them so I can just swap the motor by unbolting the nine small screws that hold the motor in the hub/shell. The 29" rim rides nicely over bumps but it gears the MAC too high and contributes to over heating. The 27.5" rim I like because there are several good 2.8" tires available but it is still a little tall for the overall gearing. I usually run the 24" or the 26" because they actually help with over heating. 26" bicycle tires are probably the most common diameter if you consider all bikes worldwide.

Too bad you never tried 20" tire with fast winding at higher volts.

Check out the performance of the MAC with 6T winding and 20" tire at 72v/40 amps (at both 77% throttle and full throttle):

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

That is really impressive!

 

[Bullfrog]

Too bad you never tried 20" tire with fast winding at higher volts.

Check out the performance of the MAC with 6T winding and 20" tire at 72v/40 amps (at both 77% throttle and full throttle):

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

That is really impressive!

I did have a 20" wheel but I didn't like the small radius of curvature when riding over bumps. I went as small as a 20x2.5" tire but normally I ran a 4" fat tire (different rim). Nice thing about the MAC is the hub is small enough in diameter that you can use a one cross lacing pattern even with a 20" rim.

The MAC puts out more torque per battery amp than any other motor in the drop down menu of the Grin Tech Motor Simulator and that includes EVERY motor even the ones that don't show up until you click on the "Show All" option.

Everything I said about the MAC is also true for the GMAC plus the GMAC can do regen...of course the MAC can too if you weld the clutch. The clutch and the gears in a MAC hold up to anything you can throw at them...the one weakness of the MAC is a geared hub motor will over heat easier than an outrunner like the BBSHD or a Direct Drive Hub motor like the Leaf.

 

[Bullfrog]

you may want to get a cheap watt/amp meter to verify with. Since the voltage is correct but the current isn’t, that would indicate the system is assuming a different shunt value than the shunts in the controller, like an unintended shunt mod. I’d measure with a separate meter while riding full throttle up the steepest hill you can find and see the what the peak watts/amps are.

Thanks, I will try that at some point. And thanks for the link.

Thanks Neptronix...I agree too. And thanks for the link.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

With 35mm wide stator being an ideal shape for efficiency in terms of not having too much magnet height/stator width relative to magnet length/stator length wouldn't it hold true that taller magnets/wider stator (e.g. 45mm) could hold the same proportion (as the ideal 35mm does on 205mm) if stator diameter were increased to 273mm?

A larger diameter backing iron (because of the more gentle curvature) can fit longer magnets all things being equal. This in turn would then allow the magnets to be taller without becoming too much of an extreme rectangle.

 

[neptronix]

Can we please keep this topic to the 1500w leaf motor?
Or start a motor design thread since you're talking about theoreticals?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Agree about the need to get back on topic. My apologies. I'll try not to do it again. So back to discussing the default controller used in the 1500w kit.

If Leaf Bike designed the 1500w kit (default winding of 5T at 48v/40 amps) for "the worst case scenario" that would be 30" tire right? Results with 264 lb load (using RH212 for temp modeling) on flat ground and on a 7% grade:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

However, for people using smaller diameter tires upping both the voltage and amps while keeping 5T is actually thermally much safer.

Here is 60v/55 amp with 24" tire under the same settings:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

Here is 72v/80amp with 20" tire under the same settings:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

That is a huge improvement in temps despite the much higher power consumption during climbing!

P.S. Even when I increase load to 330 lbs and increase grade to 15% the 72v 80amp 20" wheel still does the best followed by the 60v 55 amp 24" wheel and then the 30" 48v 40 amp comes up last again.

 

[yantra yatra]

- 12lbs for a 1kw rated motor versus 16lbs for an almost 2kw rated motor with 8% higher efficiency is a no brainer.
- I have regenerative braking while descending that huge hill i climbed, the mid drive rider doesn't - that's a safety hazard for a high speed bike
- No constant bike drivetrain wear, only 1 rotating part, way less maintenance and stuff that could break.
- No funky pedal offset, maintains stock pedaling width.
- No problems getting a tall enough chainring to pedal at high speed.
- Costs less
- Absolutely kicks ass if you have a small wheel diameter or don't have prolonged >7% grades to worry about.

As for speed, I hit 59mph on the Leaf. The limiting factor of top speed was the wheelbase of the frame and the then state of the art for motor control technology ( couldn't tune out power wheelies ), so i never found out what the true maximum speed was.

PS i live in the mountains where we can have 5-15% grades for miles and miles. I wouldn't scale to the top of a mountain with a leaf unless i had a 20" wheel, but i was never nervous about less heroic feats with the leaf. It has an excess of available power and this helps offset the increased load during climbing.

View attachment 352077

What setup do you run to hit 59mph?

I’m still leaning towards the torque sensing BBSHD M635, maybe shunt modded - it looks like with a standard 48v or 52v setup the top speed is pretty similar between BBSHD and Leafbike, so with the benefit of gears it makes sense to stay with BBSHD and have batteries I can share between bikes.

Going up to 72v and getting into the hub drive setup seems like a bit more complicated to learn a new setup. Keen to know what controller, battery etc you use to simplify it for me!

 

[Bullfrog]

What setup do you run to hit 59mph?

I’m still leaning towards the torque sensing BBSHD M635, maybe shunt modded - it looks like with a standard 48v or 52v setup the top speed is pretty similar between BBSHD and Leafbike, so with the benefit of gears it makes sense to stay with BBSHD and have batteries I can share between bikes.

Going up to 72v and getting into the hub drive setup seems like a bit more complicated to learn a new setup. Keen to know what controller, battery etc you use to simplify it for me!

The simplest set up is a Direct Drive motor like the Leaf...only one moving part.

I own a BBSHD with a Luna controller set to 60A, I also have a MAC (geared hub) powered bike, and I just put my Leaf powered bike together. All are currently powered with a 52v battery and I'd recommend the same since it is the most common voltage and I buy my batteries from EM3ev.com.

I am going to stick with the advice I give everyone....

A. If you ride off road ANY, go with a BBSHD. I gear my bike with a 28T Lekkie chainring and a 22T White Industries freewheel so I never shift gears and my top speed is ~18 mph...any faster and one of those trees might be missing some bark and I might be missing some skin .

B. If you ride at speeds of ~28 mph or slower on paved surfaces then go with a MAC...much faster and the MAC will over heat. The MAC has more torque per battery amp than any ebike motor so it is a hoot to ride but you can't continuously push more than about 1,200w through it or it will get too hot. Short term you can run a LOT of power and the gears/clutch have never given me a problem...LOT for me is ~3,600w/60A.

C. If you want to ride at speeds above ~28 mph on paved surfaces then go with a Direct Drive (DD) hub motor. The Leaf is a good choice but there are also a bunch of other good DD motors to choose from.

You will find that 59 mph is fairly unrealistic IMO...it will require a huge battery if you want to ride for very long and the only motor I'd even consider is the QS205. You'll also need bigger brakes, better tires, and people in cars will be pulling out in front of you all the time because you are on a bicycle and they don't think you should be moving that fast.

I'd recommend you try 35-40 mph first. I have no desire to go faster than my 4T Leaf powered bike running a 52v battery can go. On level ground my top speed is ~37mph with a fully charged battery.

 

[yantra yatra]

That’s about what I’d expect from a HD at 52v, ~37mph. Totally understand the perspective on the benefits of the Leaf bike but I’d need another advantage over the M635 to switch to a hub, like a bit higher top speed, to get motivated to switch to a hub

 

[E-HP]

That’s about what I’d expect from a HD at 52v, ~37mph. Totally understand the perspective on the benefits of the Leaf bike but I’d need another advantage over the M635 to switch to a hub, like a bit higher top speed, to get motivated to switch to a hub

If you enjoy what you're riding and it's doing the job, then there's no reason to switch !!
Two bikes are an option, but eventually one will be gathering dust most of the time. That's my main deterrent from putting together a purpose-built ebike that I may only use on a few specific trails (and the possibility of being hassled or fined). Plus I'd probably keep the battery smaller, which would mean transporting my bike to the trailhead, which would really suck.

 

[yantra yatra]

I’ve got three mids, BBS01, BBS02 and the DM01 (torque sensing 160nm mid), but the DM01 packed it in and the others aren’t powerful enough for my main bike…
I’m keen to get just one good bike, and trying to make the decision. I wouldn’t mind having one of each, M635 and Leafbike.
But stock they might both be a little underpowere. it never hurts to have more power when you want it (for the hills and long distances). Keen to hear what people’s setup is in terms of controller on the Leaf.

The other options that cross my mind are getting a SuperSoco 5000w e-moto, or a V Strom 650CC adventure motorbike. Very different I know but they could do the same job, but at the end of the day I’m keen for a decent electric bike.

 

[neptronix]

I used a 18FET 3077 infineon clone controller and was pushing 48-72v and 60-100A on my 4T.

My best advice is to not buy the stock controller, it's garbage.

 

[yantra yatra]

Got a link? And battery wise, where do you find batteries that can push higher amps? The reliable sellers I’m aware of top out at 50-60a for 52v batteries (which is probably enough but doesn’t leave much headroom)

 

[neptronix]

Check out the first few pages of this thread.

I used RC Lipo, but i don't recommend it.
You will need a specialized battery to push this much power on an ebike.

 

[E-HP]

Mine is a no name 80A $70 dumb controller, sold on eBay and Amazon, shunt modded to 90A. It does 40 mph with the 3 speed switch on low, which provides enough power for all my riding. I bought a spare for a plug and play replacement in case I ever blow this on up, but there’s other builds using the same generic controller running over 100A, so I feel relatively safe.

 

[yantra yatra]

I can’t help but feel that if a company like Tesla put a few of its engineers and designers to work on ebike motors and batteries they could come up with some significant advances. This motor seems to be pretty similar to what was being sold ten years ago. And the BBSHD is the same. Ebikes apparently displace twice as much oil consumption as electric cars according to some media reports, so it could certainly use some more investment in research and development.

None of this is very plug and play or accessible to even entry level enthusiasts.

Edit: I suppose if the regulations were brought up to date and with a little careful thought and consideration, investment and spending would follow

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I can’t help but feel that if a company like Tesla put a few of its engineers and designers to work on ebike motors and batteries they could come up with some significant advances. This motor seems to be pretty similar to what was being sold ten years ago. And the BBSHD is the same. Ebikes apparently displace twice as much oil consumption as electric cars according to some media reports, so it could certainly use some more investment in research and development.

None of this is very plug and play or accessible to even entry level enthusiasts.

Edit: I suppose if the regulations were brought up to date and with a little careful thought and consideration, investment and spending would follow

Mid drives like the BBSHD and even more so the various integrated mid drives are not really intended to be serious transportation. They are too weak and over complicated for that purpose.

Sure they get used for serious transportation by some people, but they were never optimized for that. Even the "cargo bikes" are not optimized for true utility (especially with dished rear wheel used by many cargo bikes*). Instead they are intended to be used by most people for the purpose of taking one or two kids around with the city at a leisurely pace. Think recreational vehicle not utility vehicle in the vast majority of cases.

As far as the Leaf Bike 35mm goes.....yes it's development has been stagnating. But yes, maybe if regulations change we can get some real power just like those in the EU get for their mopeds. If that happens maybe we will see the Leaf 35mm combined with one of Leaf low profile integrated rim wheels. In the Leaf Bike catalog there is motor/rim combination that is about 10". Combining it with a 4" wide tire would yield a tire diameter of 18". Sure it can only be used with a single speed or motor hub integrated IGH but when you got a Leaf 35mm powering a 18" diameter tire how much pedaling does someone really need to do?

P.S. Regarding small diameter tires see my analysis here---> At what point do you draw the line on minimum tire diameter? (Yes, I mentioned 20" in the opening post but I believe a long tail bike changes that to a certain degree because of the difference in weight distribution and to a lesser extent the longer wheelbase used by the long tail design which is further increased (in most cases) by using smaller diameter tires).

*A problem not shared by Tandems like the Santana which fix this problem of unequal spoke tension (on the rear hub) common to almost all cargo bikes using a derailleur. See information in link below:

Wheel Technology

santanatandem.com

(Note: GMAC cassette hub motor when used on a derailleur cargo bike fixes the problem of unequal spoke tension by being dish-less when configured with drive side spokes "elbows out". It is the only cassette motor hub that I know capable of being dish-less.......although I assume the MAC Cassette hub motor (which the GMAC is based on) is also capable of being dish-less).

 

[Chalo]

Ebikes apparently displace twice as much oil consumption as electric cars according to some media reports,

Not even close. Sooooooo much more than that. You could ride an e-bike for every trip for the rest of your life, and all the invested energy and material resources wouldn't add up to what has been wasted in an e-car before it even hits the road once.

 

[yantra yatra]

Not even close. Sooooooo much more than that. You could ride an e-bike for every trip for the rest of your life, and all the invested energy and material resources wouldn't add up to what has been wasted in an e-car before it even hits the road once.

I’m talking aggregate, across Ebikes and electric cars as a whole rather than on a per vehicle basis. Anyway probably still far more than double on oil alone, before considering battery materials etc

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I’m talking aggregate, across Ebikes and electric cars as a whole rather than on a per vehicle basis. Anyway probably still far more than double on oil alone, before considering battery materials etc

That is likely under ideal conditions.

For most Americans they are held back but at least three things:

1. Weak power of e-bikes.

2. Complexity of e-bikes coupled to high maintenance..... especially derailleur bikes. (Derailleur is great system for when lightweight is needed, but it is not a good system on a high power motorized vehicle)

3. Poor to non existent charging infrastructure.


What is needed IMO is laws like this:

STEALTH Electric Bikes Are Now Street Legal Mopeds in EU

Stealth electric bikes from Australia came to EICMA 2021. in style packing 2 NEW homologated electric mopeds, new 250W ebikes, and the older models! The company has shown city traffic-worthy versions of their popular electric

evnerds.com

This coupled to a fast charging infrastructure where the e-moped with up to 4000 watts continuous power can rapidly recharge itself while making trips around town.

As far as the Leaf 35mm goes, I believe it could easily handle this role. This especially with a small tire diameter and thinner laminations. I am also wondering about stronger magnets too especially since they let the motor make more torque per amp though they at the same time limit motor rpm for any given voltage. But with the EU moped top speed only being 28 mph how much is stronger magnets really going to hurt?

 

[Bullfrog]

I’ve got three mids, BBS01, BBS02 and the DM01 (torque sensing 160nm mid), but the DM01 packed it in and the others aren’t powerful enough for my main bike…
I’m keen to get just one good bike, and trying to make the decision. I wouldn’t mind having one of each, M635 and Leafbike.
But stock they might both be a little underpowere. it never hurts to have more power when you want it (for the hills and long distances). Keen to hear what people’s setup is in terms of controller on the Leaf.

The other options that cross my mind are getting a SuperSoco 5000w e-moto, or a V Strom 650CC adventure motorbike. Very different I know but they could do the same job, but at the end of the day I’m keen for a decent electric bike.

I'd go with a DR650 or a DRZ400 before the Wee-Strom but weight is my major hang up....the Wee is a great machine.

Have you looked into the Lightning Rod kits? If I was going to only have one ebike, it would be a mid drive and I'd either go with a BBSHD or a Lightning Rod kit. The BBSHD has a LOT more aftermarket support than the M635 .

 

[Bullfrog]

I used a 18FET 3077 infineon clone controller and was pushing 48-72v and 60-100A on my 4T.

My best advice is to not buy the stock controller, it's garbage.

I use the Infineon Clones to run my MACs...they work great .

I plan on using an 18 FET (4110 FETs) if/when I go to a 72v battery to power my Leaf bike.

 

[yantra yatra]

Thanks, this makes it easier to know what people are using.

As for batteries, is there a reason why people don’t use two pre made packs in parallel or series to get double the amps or volts? Eg two 36v packs to get a 72v system? Or two 52v to get higher amps? Hard to find ready made batteries with eg 60a continuous.

Our local distributor is getting some in but saw he is putting packs together for double amps maybe as an experiment at the moment. 72v systems are not so common here. 2 x 36v would be easier to get hold of, but maybe voltage sag would increase.

With a good controller and the Leaf bike 35mm the limiting factor would be the battery, and then the torque sensor, for me. With those solved it sounds like it would be a bit of a beast.

(I already have two 48v packs for example - running in series or parallel could deliver potentially a lot more power without having to buy a custom new pack)

 

[99t4]

As for batteries, is there a reason why people don’t use two pre made packs in parallel or series to get double the amps or volts? Eg two 36v packs to get a 72v system? Or two 52v to get higher amps? Hard to find ready made batteries with eg 60a continuous.

That's what I do, to good effect. Two 48V common-port batteries wired in parallel.