Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Kodin]

Alex, how much money have you raised for the Leafbike motor purchase so far for sending to Justin? Just threw another bill at you, that should bring you close to total cost to order. IIRC, original cost when I ordered mine was ~$300 shipped to the US, so that's at least 2/3 covered now. I figure I either throw my money at women, or at ebikes. Ebikes won this month. XD

 

[Allex]

Yeah, thats what I am talking about. To bad we only have three people in here.

So here is the fundraising

Kodin: 200USD!
Martin: 40USD
Neoptronix said that he would chip in.

Anyway I will send one motor in. Justin could interpolate the results. So if we send 30mm in he could add a 35mm as well.

 

[terminus]

So I was told that if I note "rim for 2.3 tire" when ordering a kit they'll send it out on a wider rim (25mm inner width/ 32mm outer width) but he seemed unclear if that means they will use thicker spokes as well. Are the default spokes thick enough for some offroad use?
By the way, anyone manage to have them ship it cheaper, like freight shipping by sea? My total for shipping came to $178 which is crazy. I don't expect to ride it until spring so I was expecting some cheap option where I wait for it for a couple months, but only option is air mail.

 

[Kodin]

Yeah, thats what I am talking about. To bad we only have three people in here.

So here is the fundraising

Kodin: 200USD!
Martin: 40USD
Neoptronix said that he would chip in.

Anyway I will send one motor in. Justin could interpolate the results. So if we send 30mm in he could add a 35mm as well.

I thought we were gonna do both 30 and 35mm... I'll keep chipping at my paychecks if we can do both. Or send in a 35mm and I'll just order a 30mm shipped to Justin... What do you guys think?

 

[Kodin]

So I was told that if I note "rim for 2.3 tire" when ordering a kit they'll send it out on a wider rim (25mm inner width/ 32mm outer width) but he seemed unclear if that means they will use thicker spokes as well. Are the default spokes thick enough for some offroad use?
By the way, anyone manage to have them ship it cheaper, like freight shipping by sea? My total for shipping came to $178 which is crazy. I don't expect to ride it until spring so I was expecting some cheap option where I wait for it for a couple months, but only option is air mail.

Save the money and order when you intend to build. Shipping takes a week.

 

[neptronix]

PM me a paypal address and i'll chip in $40

 

[sendler2112]

anyone manage to have them ship it cheaper, like freight shipping by sea? My total for shipping came to $178 which is crazy. I don't expect to ride it until spring so I was expecting some cheap option where I wait for it for a couple months, but only option is air mail.

Agree. $178 shipping to the USA on top of a $175 motor is a deal breaker for me. I will just have to buy something from Grin.

 

[Allex]

PM me a paypal address and i'll chip in $40

PM sent!

 

[Lupulin]

Putting a hub this diameter into a 20-inch bicycle rim will cause severe spoke angles. It will work, so no problem doing that. I just wanted to let you know that a 17-inch moped rim/tire is a similar size to a 20-inch bicycle, and it's worth considering.

Moped and motorcycle rims have angled nipple holes, so they can be laced with severe spoke angles without stressing the spoke. A 2-inch wide steel motorcycle rim is unnecessarily heavy, but...a fairly light aluminum moped rim about 1.6-inches wide will comfortably seat tires from 2.4 to 3.2-inches wide.

https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/

Thanks for the info SM. Would using the Alex DM24 rim with 3D drilling make a difference? From Ebikes.ca website:

"Alex Rims has been offering 3D drilling of their spoke nipple holes in the rim to allow the nipple to exit at an angle rather than radially inwards, and we got a large number of these in a 20" rims size drilled out to 14 degrees which should allow you to do single cross lacing jobs when previously only radial would make sense."

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the info SM. Would using the Alex DM24 rim with 3D drilling make a difference? From Ebikes.ca website:

"Alex Rims has been offering 3D drilling of their spoke nipple holes in the rim to allow the nipple to exit at an angle rather than radially inwards, and we got a large number of these in a 20" rims size drilled out to 14 degrees which should allow you to do single cross lacing jobs when previously only radial would make sense."

Didn't know about that, thanks for sharing.

Keep in mind that radially lacing with such short spoke lengths is really not that bad, but if your confident it would work with the above, then I say go for it.

Cheers

 

[sendler2112]

I came up with $117 shipping to NY, USA which is not that bad after all since Grin quoted $75 shipping for a laced wheel and motor. It is expensive to ship heavy wheel sized packages anywhere. I also looked up shipping from NY to CA and got $46 so It is really not worth it to try to set up a group buy. NY to DC is only $13 though.

 

[Baron]

Putting a hub this diameter into a 20-inch bicycle rim will cause severe spoke angles. It will work, so no problem doing that. I just wanted to let you know that a 17-inch moped rim/tire is a similar size to a 20-inch bicycle, and it's worth considering.

Moped and motorcycle rims have angled nipple holes, so they can be laced with severe spoke angles without stressing the spoke. A 2-inch wide steel motorcycle rim is unnecessarily heavy, but...a fairly light aluminum moped rim about 1.6-inches wide will comfortably seat tires from 2.4 to 3.2-inches wide.

https://www.electricbike.com/moped-rims-tires-hubmotors/

Good advice spinning magnets.
The reason I had to cut and rethread my spokes above was because I initially tried single cross, but could not get it to work as the spoke angle was too severe.

I would suggest radial lacing is a good option for a 20" rim in these diameter motors since the leverage on the spokes is reduced and the shorter spoke length reduces flexing. The 5000+km on mine is testament to it being a viable option, and I don't ride softly.

Cheers

How many amps do you run your 20" wheel at? I'm interested in the 20" leafmotor, and I'm trying to get an idea for how much torque a radial laced 20" wheel could take before spoke failure.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

How many amps do you run your 20" wheel at? I'm interested in the 20" leafmotor, and I'm trying to get an idea for how much torque a radial laced 20" wheel could take before spoke failure.

Well that motor is not a Leaf motor, it's a 28mm wide Golden motor. Only 85% efficient, but very similar to the 30mm '1000W' Leaf motor.

Prior to venting I pushed it up to 50A peak, 35A continuous without issue although it did get quite hot in summer. Now that I've vented it, it could probably take 60A peak, 40A continuous if my controller could handle that, but it's just a 6Fet.

According to the simulator my peak torque was just over 65NM, however for a while I was running unlimited because my controller wasn't limiting properly, so potentially over 80NM of torque.

You should plug in your setup to the simulator, and if your peak torque is less than 85NM I would say you should be fine with radial lacing in a 20" wheel on either of the Leaf motors.

Cheers

 

[terminus]

I came up with $117 shipping to NY, USA which is not that bad after all since Grin quoted $75 shipping for a laced wheel and motor. It is expensive to ship heavy wheel sized packages anywhere. I also looked up shipping from NY to CA and got $46 so It is really not worth it to try to set up a group buy. NY to DC is only $13 though.

The quote I got was for the full kit and an extra rim, probably why it was so much more. The checkout cart says the extra rim alone would add 1.5 kilos to the order weight.

 

[ABritInNY]

Thanks for doing this Luke.
I keep saying it, but it's worth saying again. These motor's might not have the torque of a 40, 45, or 50mm wide magnet motor, but they are so much lighter and more efficient than most that they make up for it.
With adequate cooling, I think these Leaf motor's will do great in the 3-4KW burst range.

Cheers

Agreed. Its a direct drive motor that is neary transparent with pedaling. Works well for getting from A to B, Im happy with its performance for my wifes bike.

Based on this previous dyno readout tests which seem to be on a 60v system, as a physics guy, (plus your wife's setup,) what would you suggest is an acceptable extrapolation for this 1500w 16*4 leafmotor on 72v (24s1p 30AH) lifepo4 batt with a lyen 18fet 4110 mk2 controller, I'm trying so hard to make sense of it all, do the math and scale down, BUT with this dyno testing vs Neptronix and his 'Road tests' on 46v 25ah batt and a 12fet controller, it's a lil different results it seems? so I'm confused and struggling to understand and figure out a good 3 mode setting for Max Continuous and phase amps, an Eco/legal mode (0r the 29.2mph it's at, as it is now) + a middle and boost 120% mode setting too, for the CA v3 batt A modes settings (I wish some one had a .hex file for the cycle analyst and maybe .asv for the controller from a lyen client perhaps) that works that I could use to initially calibrate the two systems together.
Any help would be appreciated greatly thanks

 

[ABritInNY]

That's strange that you can't get it to wheelie. My 4T in a 26" wheelied as soon as i cranked it up to 80A, and i had to tune the phase to battery ratio down to about 2.25:1 to prevent that from happening.

At 72v x 80A, this motor is very dangerous in terms of wheelies on my mtb.. and i'm probably 30-50lbs heavier than you.

My rim has held up great, but the wheel was not properly trued from the factory. I ordered mine with a 24mm rim that looked cheap, but has taken everything i've thrown at it... i had the wheel trued immediately upon arrival.

How hot does your 12fet controller get @72v 80a? or have you upgraded?

 

[neptronix]

My 12FET 4110 controller at 70A was ready to blow while running 40-70 amps continuous.
My 12FET 3077 controller at 80A remained fairly warm doing the same thing, but the battery cables were always very hot. The controller died when i botched upgrading it, so i got an 18FET 4110 and everything has been peachy, even at 20S Lipo x 100A.

Do keep one thing in mind though.. i run 120% mode most of the time on my 4T. This will add extra stress to any controller.
If you ran a 5T motor and higher voltage ( up to say, 70v fully charged? ) on a 3077 12FET, you could certainly get away with it.

That's strange that you can't get it to wheelie. My 4T in a 26" wheelied as soon as i cranked it up to 80A, and i had to tune the phase to battery ratio down to about 2.25:1 to prevent that from happening.

At 72v x 80A, this motor is very dangerous in terms of wheelies on my mtb.. and i'm probably 30-50lbs heavier than you.

My rim has held up great, but the wheel was not properly trued from the factory. I ordered mine with a 24mm rim that looked cheap, but has taken everything i've thrown at it... i had the wheel trued immediately upon arrival.

How hot does your 12fet controller get @72v 80a? or have you upgraded?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

My Leaf motor is running a lot cooler these days:

Details below:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=56965&start=350#p1115680

I'll try and get some concrete testing results soon, but I think I need some more holes on the freewheel side. The air is struggling a bit to get out. I'm thinking 2 13mm holes between each side cover bolt should be ok.

Cheers

 

[Kodin]

How hard was it to remove your bearings from the side covers?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

How hard was it to remove your bearings from the side covers?

Not hard at all.
I just used a hole saw piece that was slightly bigger than the bearing ID, then tapped the bearing out with a hammer. I think I may have used some heat also...can't remember.

I replaced the bearings with new ones, so it didn't matter to me if they got damaged in removal although they are still perfectly fine and could be used again if needed.

Cheers

 

[madin88]

once you tapped with a hammer on a bearing it probably suffer damage. a bearing cannot handle such forces and there could occur dents on the running surface and or flat spots on the balls.
i would not use them anymore..

 

[Cowardlyduck]

once you tapped with a hammer on a bearing it probably suffer damage. a bearing cannot handle such forces and there could occur dents on the running surface and or flat spots on the balls.
i would not use them anymore..

Interesting.
Yes - I've seen/felt damaged bearings before as a result of hammering...usually when I don't care about them and just want to get them out.
However I've always used a hammer to get new bearings into the side covers also. I do freeze them first to help them fit, but it still requires some force to get them in. I only tap lightly on the outer race and put grease on it to help it slide in.
The bearings feel smooth and fine, so I don't think they are damaged. I've used this method plenty of times before without any issues even long term, so not sure about it damaging things.

Cheers

 

[spinningmagnets]

Many common controllers have 63V capacitors in their default base model (36V, 48V, etc). So, if you want to take advantage of mass-produced component prices, you might consider limiting your system voltage to 52V / 14S, which tops out at 58.8V when charged to 4.20V per cell. Voltage spikes for any system voltage above 14S can go above 63V, and pop the capacitors (don't ask how I know that).

ES member teslanv from Kinaye motorsports is stocking controllers with the 3077 / 75V FET, but also with 100V capacitors, so they can safely run a 60V battery (16S). when fully charged, 16 cells X 4.2V per cell = 67.2V

 

[ABritInNY]

My 12FET 4110 controller at 70A was ready to blow while running 40-70 amps continuous.
My 12FET 3077 controller at 80A remained fairly warm doing the same thing, but the battery cables were always very hot. The controller died when i botched upgrading it, so i got an 18FET 4110 and everything has been peachy, even at 20S Lipo x 100A.

Do keep one thing in mind though.. i run 120% mode most of the time on my 4T. This will add extra stress to any controller.
If you ran a 5T motor and higher voltage ( up to say, 70v fully charged? ) on a 3077 12FET, you could certainly get away with it.

At 72v x 80A, this motor is very dangerous in terms of wheelies on my mtb.. and i'm probably 30-50lbs heavier than you.

My rim has held up great, but the wheel was not properly trued from the factory. I ordered mine with a 24mm rim that looked cheap, but has taken everything i've thrown at it... i had the wheel trued immediately upon arrival.

How hot does your 12fet controller get @72v 80a? or have you upgraded?[/quote][/quote]

Yes, your probably right about the 5T on 72v but I'm gonna have to deal with choices I've already made and paid for, the 4T is what I have, with the lyen 18 fet 4110 so I WAS attempting to dial in the settings to be BOTH safe and exciting too ;p Since then I've had to deal with an @first rapid then tapering off voltage loss...(goes from 90v approx HOC to about 85v within an hour then slows down over 2 days to 80v then almost static loss, almost as if the batt circuit was disconnected (I think my BMS has probs or was set up strangely?) I'd set the controller on a 18fet default and was gonna test slowly but for some reason my USB>TTL cord or my laptop is fubar @the moment so no such luck reprogramming until I sort it out. Don't think I'll ever be brave enough for 120% mode on 80A and near 200 phase amps to test the resulting heat BUT you never know lol and if I do, I'll def post it.

That's strange that you can't get it to wheelie. My 4T in a 26" wheelied as soon as i cranked it up to 80A, and i had to tune the phase to battery ratio down to about 2.25:1 to prevent that from happening.

 

[madin88]

However I've always used a hammer to get new bearings into the side covers also. I do freeze them first to help them fit, but it still requires some force to get them in. I only tap lightly on the outer race and put grease on it to help it slide in.
The bearings feel smooth and fine, so I don't think they are damaged. I've used this method plenty of times before without any issues even long term, so not sure about it damaging things.

Cheers

of course you can use a hammer, but if you put the bearing over an axle you should not smash on the outer race and if you put the bearing into the sidecover it's the opposite you should not hammer on the inner race.