ZeroEm
1 MW
Have been using Grin's 40A Grinfineon, never had any issues.
Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
ZeroEm
1 MW
Cut the ends off the leaf motor and made them match the controller. Went thru the combinations to find the best or lowest draw.
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
I would not use the phaserunner for such a powerful motor. You'd really be cutting yourself short on your power potential and find yourself with the controller as the heat limit of your rig very quickly. You'll want a controller capable of at least 4kW output, and the phase runner is capable of maybe less than half of that.
Big cheap programmable trap controller ( ol' trusty infineon clone ) is what i used.
I would say the phasrunner is fine for the 30mm motor. I use one on my RH212 with 3.3Kw peaks. Controller doesn't overheat since heat sinking it to my frame.
For the 35mm wide motor yeah, better off with a bigger controller. I pushed 8Kw through mine using an Adaptto Mini-E in the past. Current equivalent would be the Nucular 6F or 12F.
Cheers
For the 35mm wide motor yeah, better off with a bigger controller. I pushed 8Kw through mine using an Adaptto Mini-E in the past. Current equivalent would be the Nucular 6F or 12F.
Cheers
ZeroEm
1 MW
The larger motor takes longer to get hot. it was designed for 40a and currently run it mostly at 36a at 72v.
Thanks to everyone here for sharing the pics and data.
https://www.electricbike.com/leafbike-1500w-hubmotor-the-mid-sized-hot-rod/
https://www.electricbike.com/leafbike-1500w-hubmotor-the-mid-sized-hot-rod/
spinningmagnets said:
Spinningmagnets has a very good and informative article on the Leaf Motor and he included a lot of stuff that is applicable to not only the Leaf motor but any electric motor
.One additional thing I'd like to add...ALL motors for a given design are capable of the same torque. There is no such thing as a "torque" winding" or a "speed" winding for a given motor design. The faster Kv will require more phase amps to produce the same torque as a slower Kv motor but they both supply the same torque if you supply the same battery amperage.
I have not experimented with the Leaf motor to see when magnetic saturation starts to be an issue but like Spinningmagnets said, I would estimate it starts to be an issue once you exceed approximately 50A-60A. Nice thing is a lot of batteries are limited to less than 50A-60A by their BMS and/or the cells used so the battery, the motor, and sometimes the controller as well are all limited to roughly the same maximum amperage before they start having issues. For anyone not familiar with Magnetic Saturation...it does NOT occur like an On/Off switch. It is gradual and all it means is more amperage will no longer give you the same torque increase as it did at lower amperage levels yet with the increased amperage, you get much more heat produced since the heat produced is proportional to the amperage squared and when the temp increases the resistance of the wires goes up which produces more heat so things start to get hot in a hurry once you start to experience magnetic saturation.
Thats a very good way of wording the super myth on hub motors.
I have only seen 40a and 50a maximum current bms' from the usual reliable builders, 60a would be nice
One thing I would like to clear up for myself after reading the articles link was a hint that its just amps
is it the current (a) or the total power (watts = v x a), one could have 36v40a and 72v20a with the same total power.
I have only seen 40a and 50a maximum current bms' from the usual reliable builders, 60a would be nice
One thing I would like to clear up for myself after reading the articles link was a hint that its just amps
is it the current (a) or the total power (watts = v x a), one could have 36v40a and 72v20a with the same total power.
Bullfrog said:
calab said:Thats a very good way of wording the super myth on hub motors.
I have only seen 40a and 50a maximum current bms' from the usual reliable builders, 60a would be nice
One thing I would like to clear up for myself after reading the articles link was a hint that its just amps
is it the current (a) or the total power (watts = v x a), one could have 36v40a and 72v20a with the same total power.EM3ev uses a smart BMS that will balance the cells as well as allow you to monitor the parallel strings voltage...so you can see 14 different readings for a 14s battery. You do need an Android device to load the app on. Their BMS has the trip voltage (circuit breaker) set at about 60A although they recomend keeping the amperage below 50A-55A...of course that is for their batteries with either 30Q or 25R cells which can put out that kind of amperage.
Not exactly sure what your question is regarding total power but all ebike motors have the torque proportional to the amperage and the speed proportional to the voltage when they are operating at their respective designed levels. It is only the amperage that contributes to magnetic saturation....since it is the amperage that determines the strength of the magnetism created by each pole.
Grin Tech has some good articles worth reading under the "Learn" tab on their home page...the one on Hub Motors helped me a lot when I was first starting out. Justin (Grin Tech Owner/Operator) also has some good youtube videos and these are two I'd recomend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJe_gygRGU&t=2930s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c96n0Ma2rLY&t=6759s The discussion starting at the time mark 2:16:15 is something everybody should understand
A complete list of the Grin Tech videos can be found on this page: https://www.youtube.com/c/GrinTechnologies/videos
And just FYI, Justin/Grin Tech funds and maintain this forum so we can all share information...so definitely worth supporting Grin Tech if possible.
DogDipstick
100 kW
I have been running a 35H motor at 50A battery and 100A phase. 3 year at this level with only trivial problem.
I just increased that to 105A battery and 150A phase. I also replaced the bearings for good ones, and the phase wires for 5.27mm vs the OEM 3mm. This has solved my phase wire melting problem, that I had been experiencing.
Its nuts . It was fast. Now..... its " fast as f...."
Downright dangerous off the line, throttle only.
Overheated on my first 5 mile ride. Consumption increased significantly: wH/mile is hampered greatly. I bet I am somewhere around 80wH/mile continuous ( where I was around 40-60 at peak, full throttle, levels, over miles of riding, averaged.... ). Turned my 25 mile battery into a 15 mile battery. 1270wH.
I filled it with Cosmoline paraffin and mineral oil. I may have to turn down the current. We will see. My old man Dad told me straight out that it would not handle that much current. Like he knows anything. lol. Bah. I have finally began to see some heat from the battery: I must have crossed 4C discharge capacity ( ..where the Chevrolet Volt cell begins to make heat.).. I used to get negligible heat from my battery, not enough to notice. Not anymore. She is getting a little hot and bothered.
Its nuts..... ... ....nuts.
I just increased that to 105A battery and 150A phase. I also replaced the bearings for good ones, and the phase wires for 5.27mm vs the OEM 3mm. This has solved my phase wire melting problem, that I had been experiencing.
Its nuts . It was fast. Now..... its " fast as f...."
Downright dangerous off the line, throttle only.
Overheated on my first 5 mile ride. Consumption increased significantly: wH/mile is hampered greatly. I bet I am somewhere around 80wH/mile continuous ( where I was around 40-60 at peak, full throttle, levels, over miles of riding, averaged.... ). Turned my 25 mile battery into a 15 mile battery. 1270wH.
I filled it with Cosmoline paraffin and mineral oil. I may have to turn down the current. We will see. My old man Dad told me straight out that it would not handle that much current. Like he knows anything. lol. Bah. I have finally began to see some heat from the battery: I must have crossed 4C discharge capacity ( ..where the Chevrolet Volt cell begins to make heat.).. I used to get negligible heat from my battery, not enough to notice. Not anymore. She is getting a little hot and bothered.
Its nuts..... ... ....nuts.
What bearings did you upgrade to?
If someone is using a programmable controller, what are some various battery/phase amp settings for a 50A rated pack, and what are the results of the various settings?
If someone is using a programmable controller, what are some various battery/phase amp settings for a 50A rated pack, and what are the results of the various settings?
DogDipstick
100 kW
spinningmagnets said:
SKF Part number 6004/2RSH-LHT23/MB3, a ester base low/wide temperature greased, double side double lip, SKF Explorer deep groove with a machined brass cage in ABEC grade 3 with a 10 kN dynamic rating. ( I am not using the matched pair option, for this part number, even though that is an available part option. )
DogDipstick
100 kW
gobi said:
No. It is a ester base low temperature / wide temperature grease, in the bearing I paid for. This means it works form 0*C to 100*C. You can get the bearings pre packed with about five different lubricants.
Here is my build thread. My most recent photos. >>>>> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=103648
DogDipstick
100 kW
spinningmagnets said:
WELP CAN CONFIRM. YOU PEOPLE WERE RIGHT AGAIN.
BURNT PHASE on the second day at 105A battery on my 35H motor. Even dripping with Cosmoline/ Mineral oil suspension solution.
Walked a mile home. Lol.
Thanks you all. I had to know what the limit was. I found out.
DogDipstick said:
Thanks!
I peek at leafbike website, and I see they don't mention winding # etc, are we able to order custom winding from leaf?
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/48v-52v-1500w-rear-spoke-hub-motor-electric-bike-motor-spline-cassette-1110.html
ZeroEm
1 MW
They like to talk speeds. you can convert it to windings. Used to sell only 48v now they also sell/advertise 52v, so more complicated mostly in a 26" wheel. The default if you don't tell them what you want they will send a 4T.
The 4T is what I recommend, even if you travel at speeds that are "half throttle". It took years for me to get it, but...more copper cross section in windings will run cooler because of less resistance.
Copper has more resistance when its hot. Therefore, if you are running just warm, fine....but...once you get hot, the same amount of watts as before will keep it hot.
26 inch wheel, 2-inch tire, 52V and 4T winding will do 40-mph. Thats a good thing, even if you normally travel 20-mph, because...
Sometimes 3,000-lb cars try to kill me.
Copper has more resistance when its hot. Therefore, if you are running just warm, fine....but...once you get hot, the same amount of watts as before will keep it hot.
26 inch wheel, 2-inch tire, 52V and 4T winding will do 40-mph. Thats a good thing, even if you normally travel 20-mph, because...
Sometimes 3,000-lb cars try to kill me.
Chalo
100 TW
spinningmagnets said:
You make the same heat to get the same torque, independent of winding. And of course you'll need more phase amps from the controller to get the same torque from a fast wind. That's why I recommend using the slowest wind that gets you the top speed you'll actually use. That means maximum torque with minimum controller and battery requirements.
ZeroEm
1 MW
:wink: I don't debate windings. or speed vs tq. Just inform on options. The sweet spot in a motor is half speed but very narrow window and mostly impossible to keep it in there.
Most of my cruzing is just below half of the maximum speed.
Most of my cruzing is just below half of the maximum speed.
I suppose different riders have different user-profiles. I only use high amps for a short acceleration phase, and then I cruise at a lower speed than my max possible.
While I'm cruising along, I use fairly low amps.
While I'm cruising along, I use fairly low amps.
I watched Grin's (Justin) video on efficiency few times. 50% throttle thing makes sense.
Where I live I have no possibility to ride more than 2x mph.
So for a fat bike build on/off road some slow off road and some brisk neighborhood 20 mph to 30 mph riding,
Should I get a 6T
1500w Leaf motors does NOT come with temp sensor by default is what I gather? I have to request that, correct?
Where I live I have no possibility to ride more than 2x mph.
So for a fat bike build on/off road some slow off road and some brisk neighborhood 20 mph to 30 mph riding,
Should I get a 6T
1500w Leaf motors does NOT come with temp sensor by default is what I gather? I have to request that, correct?
