LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

Torque sensing PAS is a function of the bottom bracket and controller, and so would certainly work with my motors. The Small Block makes the most sense because the more power you try to control with any kind of PAS the worse it operates. It's much easier to make the delivery of 500 watts smooth than 5,000 watts. My interest in pedal assist is limited to be honest. That segment is too crowded with too much cheap Chinese product. Personally I like pedaling with a hand throttle controlled motor. Yes it takes a little bit of coordination and thought. I'm okay with that.
I have been thinking about bringing the Small Block back. When the CYC first came out everyone was buying them and Small Block sales dried up for a while. But now that we all know what the CYC is, there may be a need for a simple, well built, 5-6 kW lightweight. Thanks to the new generation of controllers the Big Block is too powerful for most bicycles. Sure you can run it at half power for 5kW, but why carry the extra four pounds of weight on a bicycle if you don't need the power?

 

[calab]

I am the same way as I have a cheap controller that has the cruise function. If you connect those wires together and the throttle doesnt move for a certain period the cruise is engaged. Takes a bit of getting used to when it engages when you dont want it to.

I have heard the CYC is junk, thats what you are eluding to?

Yeah you should or you do have a low power kit, something in the 2-3kw section (small block) I dont think size and weight would fluctuate to much vs 1kw mid drive but thats your area of expertise. People who want wimpy just buy the cheap mid drives, I think your mid drive small block fits perfectly, I think its 2-3kw.

My interest in pedal assist is limited to be honest.

Personally I like pedaling with a hand throttle controlled motor. Yes it takes a little bit of coordination and thought. I'm okay with that.
I have been thinking about bringing the Small Block back. When the CYC first came out everyone was buying them and Small Block sales dried up for a while. But now that we all know what the CYC is, there may be a need for a simple, well built, 5-6 kW lightweight. Thanks to the new generation of controllers the Big Block is too powerful for most bicycles. Sure you can run it at half power for 5kW, but why carry the extra four pounds of weight on a bicycle if you don't need the power?

 

[PRW]

Mike,
what would be the recommended continuous amps (and peak) for the Big and Small Blocks?
thanks,
Peter

 

[LightningRods]

The new 18kW motor

XXL compared to Big Block (L)

 

[SwampDonkey]

Nice! I want one. Would be nice to have standard like 8mm sprocket spline as a shaft end option.

That would be nice! If only I had an indexing CNC steel mill…

Have you looked at CNC converting a benchtop mill? Find a decent used milling machine (like a G0704) and convert it for a few hundred bucks. Use it to build your own 4th axis for indexing and rotary stuff. It would come in super handy having a CNC mill at your fingertips. If you have the money, Tormach has really good turnkey packages.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Great. There is a high chance that I am going to replace my belt driven CYC PRO1. Out of 4 currently own e-bikes, CYC is the most disappointing...
IMG_3256.jpg

Why is the CYC disappointing? Im gettinbg either the Cyclone 6kW, single stage LR big block,or the CYC X1 pro. Havent decided yet,still gathering info. Can you compare it to the LR BB drive?

I can't compare the CYC to the Big Block as I don't own one. However, there are some thoughts comparing to the weakest e-bike I own: G510.
CYC X1 is extremely noisy, low power at low motor RPM (Using ASI BAC855). Comparing with the Bafang G510, which is supposed to be 2x weaker (according to the advertisement), there is barely a difference comparing these two in a drag race. Both used with a 54V battery 14s.
Bafang G510 has a lot more usable torque at low rpm vs CYC, which has torque at extreme rpm.
CYC at high RPM going up the steep hill is not consuming more than 1,6kW from the battery (We all expect it to be 3000W, right?). In fact, I haven't seen the power higher that 2,2kW using 14s (54V battery) under any circumstances. (Battery used 14s9p with 100A BMS). If RPM drops under a load, CYC can't accelerate, it loses the ability to climb as soon as you shortly release the throttle. It is not critical on flat, but highly noticeable on hilly roads. G510 even being weaker is more usable. And comparing to the CYC, it is virtually dead silent.
My CYC has all new bearings, sadly enough, the original (SKF) didn't last long enough...
In short, at least my own CYC PRO GEN1 proved to be the most expensive, extreme maintenance requiring item, way too noisy to enjoy the ride, unreliable and not providing the power as advertised (I am talking about the whole system power, not the motor itself).

Yikes, that doesnt sound good. I wonder if bumping up to 20S makes all the difference. Ive had a BBSHD and a cyclone3K before. Both were nice but the cyclone blew my goddamn mind even at 14S. Its just all business lol. Cruising around with people using 500W hub drives, the Cyclone turns you into a god among mortals at 20S.

 

[maiz]

I like a solution that's versatile. I would pedal mostly, throttle-zoom occasionally for fun or safety. I really dig the attention you've given to maturing these motors and like the idea of a supporting your efforts but building a bike shaped scooter is second on the list right now. First I have to get this townie grocery-getter powered up.

Although maybe I'll start with the scooter :lol:

 

[LightningRods]

I have heard the CYC is junk, thats what you are eluding to?

Yeah you should or you do have a low power kit, something in the 2-3kw section (small block)

I’m trying not to gloat too much about the CYC. It couldn’t happen to a more deserving person.

I’m ordering 10 small block motors next week. If people want them I’ll buy more. The new IPM version should have the potential to be a high rpm screamer as well as a well behaved 3kW commuter motor.

 

[LightningRods]

Mike,
what would be the recommended continuous amps (and peak) for the Big and Small Blocks?
thanks,
Peter

Continuous is always tricky because there are so many variables. Air temp? Uphill? Load? Based on other manufacturers claims, 50A continuous, 100A peak for the small block, 100A continuous, 200A peak for the regular big block. You didn’t ask about the XL but I’d put it at 130A continuous, 260A peak.

 

[PRW]

Mike,
what would be the recommended continuous amps (and peak) for the Big and Small Blocks?
thanks,
Peter

Continuous is always tricky because there are so many variables. Air temp? Uphill? Load? Based on other manufacturers claims, 50A continuous, 100A peak for the small block, 100A continuous, 200A peak for the regular big block. You didn’t ask about the XL but I’d put it at 130A continuous, 260A peak.

haha - thanks - it's for the Beta, so the XL is an unfortunate step too far!

I am trying to maximise the battery for the Beta at the moment, so thanks, that helps. I think I can get either 20s7p or 20s8p GA cells in the frame, so 70a or 80a continuous - so in which case, does the big block make sense rather than the small block?

 

[LightningRods]

haha - thanks - it's for the Beta, so the XL is an unfortunate step too far!

I am trying to maximise the battery for the Beta at the moment, so thanks, that helps. I think I can get either 20s7p or 20s8p GA cells in the frame, so 70a or 80a continuous - so in which case, does the big block make sense rather than the small block?

You can pretty well double battery amps to phase amps. So your 80A battery could produce 160A phase. That would be big block territory.

 

[PRW]

haha - thanks - it's for the Beta, so the XL is an unfortunate step too far!

I am trying to maximise the battery for the Beta at the moment, so thanks, that helps. I think I can get either 20s7p or 20s8p GA cells in the frame, so 70a or 80a continuous - so in which case, does the big block make sense rather than the small block?

You can pretty well double battery amps to phase amps. So your 80A battery could produce 160A phase. That would be big block territory.

thanks Mike. Do I order/ discuss via your FB page?

 

[john61ct]

Torque sensing PAS is a function of the bottom bracket and controller, and so would certainly work with my motors. The Small Block makes the most sense because the more power you try to control with any kind of PAS the worse it operates. It's much easier to make the delivery of 500 watts smooth than 5,000 watts.

How about via CAv3?

Does that have any power / amps limit?

 

[LightningRods]

Do I order/ discuss via your FB page?

You can PM me here, go to Facebook or email me at michael@backusstudio.com. Thanks!

 

[SwampDonkey]

Torque sensing PAS is a function of the bottom bracket and controller, and so would certainly work with my motors. The Small Block makes the most sense because the more power you try to control with any kind of PAS the worse it operates. It's much easier to make the delivery of 500 watts smooth than 5,000 watts. My interest in pedal assist is limited to be honest. That segment is too crowded with too much cheap Chinese product. Personally I like pedaling with a hand throttle controlled motor. Yes it takes a little bit of coordination and thought. I'm okay with that.
I have been thinking about bringing the Small Block back. When the CYC first came out everyone was buying them and Small Block sales dried up for a while. But now that we all know what the CYC is, there may be a need for a simple, well built, 5-6 kW lightweight. Thanks to the new generation of controllers the Big Block is too powerful for most bicycles. Sure you can run it at half power for 5kW, but why carry the extra four pounds of weight on a bicycle if you don't need the power?

Can the small block work well with just one stage of reduction? I figured it would be a higher RPM, two stage reduction thingy.

 

[LightningRods]

How about via CAv3?

Does that have any power / amps limit?

I like the CA3 a lot. Unfortunately I’m not seeing them used with the high end controllers. I used CA3s with Lyen square waves and enjoyed all of it’s features

 

[LightningRods]

Can the small block work well with just one stage of reduction? I figured it would be a higher RPM, two stage reduction thingy.

The small block does need two stages. But my single stage drive is actually two stages when you count the final drive. You can get 13:1 which is plenty low for the SB

 

[tomjasz]

I have been thinking about bringing the Small Block back.

And I'll finally be in. Day 6 Joy large trike on order. I can use my Grin 9C RTR on another build.

 

[LightningRods]

I’m ordering 20 of the new XXLs and 10 Small Blocks next Monday.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I’m ordering 20 of the new XXLs and 10 Small Blocks next Monday.

Do you have the single stage big blocks in stock?

 

[LightningRods]

I have the single stage parts and around 30 each Big Block and XL motors. Choose your weapon!

 

[MSF]

Thinking of upgrading my setup. Any ideas on swapping the big block motor in here with belt drive ?

 

[MSF]

My new 10kW bottom bracket drives. GT3 belt reduction with 3.75:1 first stage or 219 kart chain reduction with 6.25:1 first stage. More chainwheel speed means more rear wheel speed with less driveline stress. Both of these drives have plenty of power to run single speed.

272263229_7579654248726693_7842089711761128425_n.jpg

Would like to see some pics of the topside on belt drive unit if you have any

 

[MSF]

My plan would be to adapt the brackets in your kit to the 1/4 plates i made, get a longer belt, 219 chain to rear with single speed sprocket and adapter to my hub.

 

[LightningRods]

Top view of Big Block belt primary as requested