LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

Are you spinning the wheel with the bike upside down?

 

[MSF]

That is my bike and the brake works as it should going forward just not backwards. Don't tell me i am the first one to think of this

No, the idea occurred to me as soon as I made the six bolt pattern for the single speed sprocket the same as the brake rotor. Sadly it doesn’t work. What the freewheel/freehub does is allow the wheel to rotate forward when the rider stops pedaling. The rotor behaves the same as the sprocket. It stops and the wheel freewheels.

If i hold the brake i can roll the bike backward and i can hear the freehub clicking, When i roll the bike forward the wheel is locked up. the hub was rotated 180 by the way

 

[MSF]

Are you spinning the wheel with the bike upside down?

The bike is upright now and as i said it works to stop the bike going forward.

 

[LightningRods]

the hub was rotated 180 by the way

NOW I get what you're doing! Brilliant! Upside down and backwards. No wonder I was lost! LOL Very clever! This will allow regen RHD solid mounted to the flopped rotor mount. As long as there are no issues running the brake rotor on the free hub this looks like a genius idea. :thumb:

 

[LightningRods]

Left side of bike. Originally right (freehub) side of hub


Right side of bike. Originally left (brake) side of flipped hub. 219 sprocket solid mounted for regen.

Genius idea courtesy of MSF.

 

[MSF]

kind of game changing for hub availably. The thing i didn't want was a chain on both sides of the bike. Honestly if the freehub didn't hold up as long as regen is strong i could care less. Now we just need adapter to sprocket spacers for chain alignment :wink:

 

[LightningRods]

 

[LightningRods]

I did find that some of the rotors I had in stock would conflict in the recessed splines of three of the bolts. The rounded tab around the rotor bolt would need to be ground back.

 

[MSF]

54627797-3251-4273-B71B-DFE17E905419.jpeg

Hell yeah ! Going to need two of them with my Big Block kit

Make that 4 if you can spare them

 

[MSF]

Can't wait for the transformation of this week cyclone to the LightningRods Big Block

 

[LightningRods]

You’ve done a good job with your Cyclone. Running small chainrings does a lot to correct the inherent problems with the drive. You are going to have a LOT more power with the Big Block.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Can't wait for the transformation of this week cyclone to the LightningRods Big Block

More low-end grunt, more peak power, and no more power cutouts due to an overheated motor...

 

[calab]

Broken flange on the final bolt on for the cyclone is a real pita

 

[briangv99]

Hey LR, do you have any of the 15mm shaft Big Block motors available?

Thanks,

Brian

 

[LightningRods]

Hi Brian,
I sell 15mm bore sprockets but those are generally for jackshafts. Since I build every motor myself I can make a custom motor shaft for you. How long do you need the exposure to be?

 

[briangv99]

Thanks LR,

I didn't realise you did your own motor shafts, that's great.

I bought a big block from you a couple months ago, was going to shim the shaft to 14mm to suit my LMX belt pulley, but when I saw you could do 15mm I thought it might be better to bore my motor pulley instead. Just thinking about it, Is a 14mm shaft doable?

I'll check the extension length a bit later.

 

[LightningRods]

Yes I can do 14mm. I’m set up to do 4mm keyways. If you need something else I can do it for the additional price of the different end mill.

 

[briangv99]

Thanks again,

LMX is 4mm keyway also.

The pulley retention is fairly simple too, no circlip groove, just the shaft bored and tapped for an M5 I think.

I'll get back to you with details.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I’m ordering 10 small block motors next week. If people want them I’ll buy more. The new IPM version should have the potential to be a high rpm screamer as well as a well behaved 3kW commuter motor.

Yep, I'm looking forward to higher RPM with the benefit of a very wide powerband in the future:

https://www.automate.org/industry-insights/interior-permanent-magnet-motors-power-traction-motor-applications

Perhaps the biggest advantage of IPM designs, one that gives them an edge in vehicle applications like traction motors, is the high-speed performance. The power versus speed curve for SPM motors is roughly hyperbolic, rising to a region of quasi-constant power over a narrow speed range, then falling off.

IPM motors, in contrast, provide a much broader region of more or less consistent torque. Using a technique called field weakening, designers can apply current to modify performance. As speed rises, the permanent magnets and motor generate highers voltage. At very high speeds, the back EMF of the motor times the speed can exceed the voltage of the battery, which limits drive current, and torque. Field weakening essentially involves tuning the magnetic field of the stator to partially oppose the effect of the permanent magnets. The process involves a control scheme known as direct (D) and quadrature (Q) axis current control. The D-axis runs through the center of the rotor pole while the Q-axis lies between two adjacent rotor poles in the center. “By breaking the stator vector into two vectors, and applying one current to the quadrature axis and one to the direct axis, they control the current phase angle between them, which allows much wider constant power control," explains motor designer and IEEE fellow Jim Hendershot, co-author of Permanent Magnet Brushless Motors and Generator Design.

For vehicle applications, the technique provides big benefits compared to SPM motors. “The IPM configuration allows more control over the magnetization of the magnetic circuit," says Hendershot.

That's not to say that field weakening isn't possible with SPM designs, as well, but because of the size of the air gap, the technique requires far higher currents. “Because of the current limit of the inverter on thermal limitations of the motor, you can't field weaken it enough to produce torque at high speeds," says Fulton.

At low speeds, SPM motor and an IPM motor of the same size can generally produce about the same amount torque, or the SPM design may even produce a bit more up until they reach the corner point RPM. At speeds higher than the corner-point RPM, torque from SPM designs drops rapidly. “If both of them have a base of 3000 RPM, the SPM motor will probably have zero torque at 5000 RPM whereas the IPM could continue on to 10,000 or 12,000 RPM," says Fulton. The behavior makes IPM motors a good fit for traction motor applications, which tend to demand high torque over a broad speed range. “With IPM designs you get the best of both worlds—you can get very good acceleration at low speeds and then run at very high speeds while at almost the same power level.”

https://www.nidec.com/en/technology/motor/glossary/000/0040/

A type of motor that has a rotor embedded with permanent magnets is called the IPM (interior permanent magnet) type. Compared with the SPM (surface permanent magnet), this type of motor can reduce the risk of a magnet being peeled off by centrifugal force, and take advantage of reluctance torque. The IPM type allows various structures for embedding permanent magnets.

Goodbye SPM. Hello IPM!

 

[LightningRods]

It works exactly as described. My old surface mount motors would have a big kick at startup and then fall flat. These IPMs keep revving and actually get a ‘VTEC’ kick on the high end. 20S rpm increases from 5000 rpm to 10,000.
This is what a SurRon surface mount rotor does at high rpm.

 

[spinningmagnets]

IPM rotors:

Tesla Model-3
Nissan Leaf
Toyota Prius
Zero Motorcycles (all models)

Hybrids and current-gen EV's from Ford, Honda, Lexus, BMW, etc

 

[LightningRods]

Pushing the boundary between “bicycle” and “motorcycle”. It seems to me that bicycles are too flimsy and slow and motorcycles are too fat and heavy. Why not have 20 HP in 120 lbs? (60 kg for you metric folks). This bike will have footpegs and be registered as a moped. Which is still a stretch because it’s too fast to be a moped.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I always liked the motoped.

The lightning Rods XL is a big improvement over the Horizontal Honda 49cc to 110cc which normally goes on that bike

 

[LightningRods]

Those crappy Honda clones are what sank the company. I don’t know why they were so slow to go electric.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Left to right- XXL, XL, Big Block center cases
IMG_6217.jpeg

You know in Pokemon where everything has like, 3 evolutions as they get badder and badder...

IPM rotors:

Tesla Model-3
Nissan Leaf
Toyota Prius
Zero Motorcycles (all models)

Hybrids and current-gen EV's from Ford, Honda, Lexus, BMW, etc

I thought they were Synchronous-reluctance IPM? Or is that difference too minor to count?