Lithium battery fire risk and information.

[Hillhater]

Some useful information , advice and horrific examples of the dangers of even a small (ebike size) lithium pack in runaway !
Note… My take away from this…... You may think it is smoke,…but it is not,…it is poisionous, explosive, gas !
Just run ,!…..fast !

 

[offGridDownUnder]

It's analogous to the old Bell helmet ads: "You put a $10 head in a $10 helmet".

Buy batteries from sellers with a serious reputation and pay for it and sleep at night.

Or build your own...

 

[Az.]

For a long time now I keep batteries in the shed far away from home. I don't take any chances. Doesn't matter if battery is expensive or not, I don't want to be killed by either.

 

[neptronix]

True but will be a moot point in the near future with sodium ion, solid state, and other non-flammable chemistries just barely starting to hit the market.

I think the appeal for the batteries of now will drop like a stone soon.

In the meantime, buy a quality battery. Don't play Chinese roulette with a component that's very difficult to make safe.

 

[Hillhater]

I think the appeal for the batteries of now will drop like a stone soon.

Oh.!….someone should tell Tesla,….. as they are just about to install another 50 GWh of current 4680 battery capacity !

 

[Jackal21]

From the home protection point of view, let's take an appartment to narrow down our options, from this video presentation, the small electric scooter that went on fire while charging in the house is what stuck into my head the most because, although teriffying the explosions, the fires or that the gases can light on fire afterwards while just sitting there for a while, besides the charging, all the other scenarios require a short or damage to the cells, correct?
1. Let's take a Lithium ion battery pack out of branded cilindrical cells, removed from the vehicle, that just sits there, between uses, at nominal voltage. Can a batt pack selfdistruct, runaway or whatever we call it, when is not in use, moved or touched? Just to make sure if I can remove this one concern out.
2. Next scenario is damaging the cells of the pack. Besides the posibility of dropping it on the floor, the true damage might just happend only outside the house while in use. So, although serious, from the house protection point of view we leave this one aside.
3. Then ther's the charging part.
Let's say we went the oldschool route of no bms and use a hobby inteligent charger (I'll show a link bellow with specs and photo of what I use).
Supose that, besides the fact that the charger has automatic end charge detection, we also monitor the voltages on the chargers screen, from time to time to an end voltage of 4.15v/cell, and that we know from before, the time the charging takes from a particular storage percentage, and stop it if the charger gows bad an does not stop it for us.
And now my main question:
What are the other situations that a charger (charging process) can cause a battery runaway, fire?
Because if we consider a short inside the charger, I'm not sure what kind of "linkages" should it have to withstand for example an 8s8p 30v 32Ah pack short and not to melt, cutting the short.

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View attachment HTB1TkiREeySBuNjy1zdq6xPxFXao.jpg_640x640Q90.jpg_.webp

 

[docw009]

1. Let's take a Lithium ion battery pack out of branded cilindrical cells, removed from the vehicle, that just sits there, between uses, at nominal voltage. Can a batt pack selfdistruct, runaway or whatever we call it, when is not in use, moved or touched? Just to make sure if I can remove this one concern out.
2. Next scenario is damaging the cells of the pack. Besides the posibility of dropping it on the floor, the true damage might just happend only outside the house while in use. So, although serious, from the house protection point of view we leave this one aside.
3. Then ther's the charging part.
Let's say we went the oldschool route of no bms and use a hobby inteligent charger (I'll show a link bellow with specs and photo of what I use).
Supose that, besides the fact that the charger has automatic end charge detection, we also monitor the voltages on the chargers screen, from time to time to an end voltage of 4.15v/cell, and that we know from before, the time the charging takes from a particular storage percentage, and stop it if the charger gows bad an does not stop it for us.
And now my main question:
What are the other situations that a charger (charging process) can cause a battery runaway, fire?
Because if we consider a short inside the charger, I'm not sure what kind of "linkages" should it have to withstand for example an 8s8p 30v 32Ah pack short and not to melt, cutting the short.

Battery sitting alone. Can it flame up?. Yes, because anything can happen, but I think you need damaged cells with dendrites that short circuit internally. Sure, you could have cell-to-cell shorts from various causes, including dropping the battery.

How does charging cause a fire? I think it's pretty hard, if you have a working BMS. The switch MOSFET's will open the charging circuit if any cell groups are out of range. Now if the switch MOSFET;s happen to blow up and fail in the shorted position, you will never know. A incident that sticks in my mind is the guy who posted here about his two 48V batteries in series. One battery must have switched off, received 110 volts across the MOSFET's and they shorted out. Eventually, overcharging set that battery on fire.

My fish story, told too many times, is that a vendor shipped me a 14S battery/charger both labelled as 13S. I mingled these with my 13S batteries for a year before I found out. The BMS on the 13S packs did its job when the 14S charger was plugged in. On the other hand, what if I had just plugged in a 60V lab supply with no current limiting, or just used five SLA batteries? Maybe the current surge could blow the BMS up. Who knows.

Current UN3480 rules require cells and batteries to withstand short circuit and crush tests, plus overcharge. They must rely on the cell to vent and also the circuit interrupters to open up. Perhaps the cheaper cells won't pass those requirements. If we only buy or build batteries that pass those tests, we shouldn't have (as many) fires.

 

[neptronix]

Tesla cars have pretty much every possible safety measure you could put into the design, but still some <1% of them just go up in flame every year.

Their battery design is the benchmark other battery designs are measured by, so we should consider them 'as safe as they get'.

Statistically speaking they have less fires than gasoline cars, but gasoline cars' reason for spontaneously combusting is typically a minor electric flaw that's easy to fix. With Teslas, the cause is rarely forseen. The problem is dendrites or something else tucked away in research papers.

With today's lithium batteries, you still have a number of failure routes possible that can't easily be detected before hand. All of them are catastrophic and will destroy the entire car, and property around the car.

We have some reports of cheap batteries catching fire on the forums but i've yet to hear reports on well constructed batteries spontaneously igniting. So, safety features seem to have a sizeable effect.

But there is no such thing as a completely safe lithium battery except for a number of types not currently installed in vehicles:

- some lifepo4 will offgas pretty extensively and not flame in most failure routes, which is OK. The material in the offgas can be flammable though.
- a subset of sodium ion batteries emit nothing but a little bit of smoke in all known failure methods.
- some solid state cells seem to become inert when destroyed.
- I've seen other types that were too early in development for me to even remember their names, that exhibited high safety, but didn't have a complete set of tests to prove it.

I'm looking forward to much safer batteries. I think improving this attribute will bolster mass adoption.

 

[Hillhater]

- some lifepo4 will offgas pretty extensively and not flame in most failure routes, which is OK. The material in the offgas can be flammable though.
- a subset of sodium ion batteries emit nothing but a little bit of smoke in all known failure methods.
- some solid state cells seem to become inert when destroyed.

Still too many uncertainties in there !
”offgas can be flammable ..”……flammable , or explosive ?…poisionous ?
”a little bit of smoke..”…….what is in that smoke ?
“Seem to become inert “ ?
When an “issue” occures and smoke starts to seep out of that pack,….. who is going to think what chemistry is inside, is it just a little smoke ,? Is it poisonous ? , flammable,? Explosive ?…
I think the advice in the OP video is the most prudent……
dont think,..
dont bother to disconnect the power, …
dont attempt to move the pack,…
just run away from it !

 

[neptronix]

Do you have any personal interest in electric vehicles?

Or are you here just to spook people?

Serious question!

 

[nicobie]

I think the advice in the OP video is the most prudent……
dont think,..
dont bother to disconnect the power, …
dont attempt to move the pack,…
just run away from it !

 

[Hillhater]

Do you have any personal interest in electric vehicles?

Or are you here just to spook people?

Serious question!

Yes,
No !
Serious answer..
I suspect that many of us using Lithium batteries in various applications, have been lulled into a sence of complacency and false safety. As a few of us have learned, even a small 500Wh pack is capable of destroying your house and could easily kill anyone involved nearby. !
if that “spooks” someone into taking a little more care of their pack management,.or just having a safer action plan if something goes wrong,…then that is fine by me.
i suggest everyone watch that video again .

 

[nicobie]

Well, you could have fooled me.

 

[Jackal21]

Where do you guys living in apartments charge your batteries?
Or those living in houses that charge them into the house, except basement, garage or any other spaces that an apartment doesn’t have.
But if you have made any safety boxes in the basement or garage, that can be used in an apartment, let’s see those too.
Let’s post pictures with our charging space, safety measures or future ideas. So we can help each other make it safer.

 

[Mongo]

I've done some precaution prep and taken some steps - a work in progress.

My bikes are stored inside my residence, as are the batteries. I charge the (four tray style e-bike & various tool) batteries on a metal rolling cart that's located near a "to outside" sliding door. Nearby I have a large fire extinguisher and a fire blanket, and have another fire blanket I am planning on attaching around the back of the cart.

The charger cords plug into a power strip on the cart, which then plugs into the wall outlet. My hope (wishful thinking?) is that I'll be home & nearby if/when a pack makes noise or a smell, and be able to (with any luck) roll the whole mess outside in short order. I pessimisticly consider my chances slim - depends on the fire growth rate and fumes, I'd guess.

I also have a triangle battery-equipped bike, and maybe the fire blanket would help protect me while rolling it out.

As far as the e-bike batteries, the triangle battery is an older em3ev, so the construction is probably welded strip and loose wire. The tray batteries are of newer construction, fused wire type, and UN 38.3 certified.

I reluctantly disposed of two first-generation shark batteries (worked fine but were poorly constructed). While any component can fail, I think, in electronics, the mechanical construction also matters.

 

[jetpackjbd]

True but will be a moot point in the near future with sodium ion, solid state, and other non-flammable chemistries just barely starting to hit the market.

I think the appeal for the batteries of now will drop like a stone soon.

In the meantime, buy a quality battery. Don't play Chinese roulette with a component that's very difficult to make safe.

Huh, I didn’t know they’re making non-flammable sodium batteries. I was going to chime in saying “they’re advertising sodium as safe now?!? You don’t want to break an old sodium light bulb, but a car filled with it is safe?” but apparently they’ve moved on from molten sodium batteries to solid, non spontaneously combusting batteries. Good to know

 

[lnanek]

I charge mine in a steel ammo can with the rubber gasket removed from the lid so it can't build up explosive pressure.


People get even fancier with these and cut holes, then place a flame arrestor and oven grills over them.

 

[Hillhater]

I too store my packs in a steel box.
But i do not fool myself that it will contain flammable, poisonous, or explosive gasses if something goes wrong.
Some of those battery events in the video were extremely sudden and dangerous.

 

[Jackal21]

I've also used an amo box for my 3s 2200, 5000mA lipos.

 

[classicalgas]

This issue is just one of the reasons that yard tool battery packs are so attractive for e bikes. They have a robust, sophisticated BMS in each pack, and that's backed up by protective circuitry in the charger, and often have a fan built into the charger to keep charge temps down, and sometimes phase change cooling. The cells used are typically high quality to start with as well.

According to one tech article I found, you are statistically ten times more likely to get hit by lightning in a given year than have a name brand tool battery catch fire. That article specifically warned about aftermarket "replacement" batteries, that aren't built to the same standards.

Yes, you'll need more than one, and you might want to figure out a way to lock them into the bike, but they do eliminate the fire worries.

 

[DaLanMan]

I suspect that many of us using Lithium batteries in various applications, have been lulled into a sence of complacency and false safety. As a few of us have learned, even a small 500Wh pack is capable of destroying your house and could easily kill anyone involved nearby. !
if that “spooks” someone into taking a little more care of their pack management,.or just having a safer action plan if something goes wrong,…then that is fine by me.
i suggest everyone watch that video again .

When it comes to acceptable risk, keep in mind we put LEAD into gas then BURNED IT TO A VAPOR to deal with engine noise.

Lead oxide was once used as a sweetener.

Lead paint...

Suzuki Samaraii

Gasoline has the explosive potental that rates out at 10pcs Dynamite (tnt@ I think 700g) per gallon of petrol.

Everything we play with is a bit scurry, you just need to pause and educate yourself. I am fairly certain that most the folks around here have tried skipping a safety flip of a breaker at least once.

I have the dikes I was holding when the power company turned the power back on in the house I was wiring up the 220/50 emergency cut off for my hot tub... I was literally cutting when the breaker clicked, I woke up with a burned hand and muscles that would take a day or so to release, and that is why I don't do HV power anymore, my lazy attitude towards deadly stuff leads me to avoid the really scary stuff.

Lithium batts are safe as houses... see prior comments on lead paint.

 

[tomjasz]

It's analogous to the old Bell helmet ads: "You put a $10 head in a $10 helmet".

Buy batteries from sellers with a serious reputation and pay for it and sleep at night.

Or build your own...

Sadly price has absolutely no bearing on quality. Check out the UK Sharp helmet reviews. There's a lot of speedy helmets that are shite, and budget priced that offer excellent protection.

My favorite batteries, EM3ev, are quite reasonably priced.

 

[rafalg]

I dont know if a metal ammo box will prevent the fire from spreading out and igniting everything around, but it pretty much guarantees that everything inside will burn faster and completely. Even if a fire is relatively small, the temperature rises much faster when everything is confined in a small box and it's guaranteed that everything else in the box will ignite too.
In some cases, i think, the box would increase the scale of battery fire, by increasing the temperature and preventing cooling by air.
I suppose the hot gases leaving the box will ignite anyway, so the fire would not be contained inside.
It's my opinion only, not knowledge, but i would rather not rely on the box as a fire preventer without testing this first.

 

[Hillhater]

i would rather not rely on the box as a fire preventer without testing this first.

Tesla are likely to be one of most experienced , and tested by real events, in this regard.
The well reported results are there to show how effective a purpose designed containment system actually is in practice

 

[rafalg]

I havent heard any success story from Tesla (or any other car manufacturer) about battery fire contained by the enclosure. The only reports available on the Internet show car completely burned.